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Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

Paco de Lucia concert last night 

Hey Ricardo,
I thought you and all the Washington Flamenco people + Todd and his girlfriend were all going to the Paco de Lucia concert last night...
Has nobody got anything to say?

cheers,

Ron

(PS: Did he have his "mini-rainforest" with him or not? )

_____________________________

A good guitar might be a good guitar
But it takes a woman to break your heart
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2007 21:19:52
 
legrec

Posts: 248
Joined: Jan. 26 2006
From: France

RE: Paco de Lucia concert last night (in reply to Ron.M

A little link to wait comments on foroflamenco..
http://www.flamenco-teacher.com/forum?do=show&disp=60709
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2007 21:25:26
 
legrec

Posts: 248
Joined: Jan. 26 2006
From: France

RE: Paco de Lucia concert last night (in reply to legrec

And now the vid. But beware if you've just eaten, STONED cameraman


For those who are "sound quality sensible", don't watch..
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2007 21:28:25
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Paco de Lucia concert last night (in reply to legrec

What??

Is that supposed to be good or something?
(IMO on a par with Esteban. )

PdL did his best work in his 20's.

He (when I saw him a couple of years back..and from what I saw there) Paco is a burned-out, wannabee Rock Star nowadays, touring with the same tired old semi-fusion crap and plastic plants.

A geriatric and (IMO) a now bitter man wanting to make as much dough as possible from his reputation like he's seen the lesser talented folk do over the years.

There are plently younger players who play better and more meaningful stuff now IMO.

Still, I've got immense respect for the man for what he did for Flamenco guitar back then.

But now?

It's like watching a 60 year old Hendrix playing "Purple Haze" for about the millionth time.

Tired, dreary.

Forget it...buy Fantasia Flamenca and the next few albums and hear what "The New Age of Flamenco Guitar" was genuinely all about.
That was certainly "revolutionary" without a doubt.

That's certainly not it IMO...

Boring rubbish..regardless of how good he once was and is charging "rock star" prices for tickets to his concerts.

Christ..at least The Rolling Stones change the title of their tour every few years!

This man is touring the world three times over with the same old tired stuff.

No wonder I found myself dozing off at his concert in Edinburgh.

Todd's electric stuff was far more inspiring than that clip IMO.

cheers

Ron

_____________________________

A good guitar might be a good guitar
But it takes a woman to break your heart
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2007 21:49:01
 
legrec

Posts: 248
Joined: Jan. 26 2006
From: France

RE: Paco de Lucia concert last night (in reply to Ron.M)1 votes

I must say that I've bought "Cositas" but barely listened to it...Some seems to say it's really great but subtle - but i just don't hook with it..
And for sure this concert extract seems weak. But the sound is so bad i can't just bear the vid. For sure the folks here will give us their impressions
...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2007 22:12:20
 
duende

Posts: 3051
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Paco de Lucia concert last night (in reply to Ron.M

quote:

PdL did his best work in his 20's.


IMO

PDL´s best is

Sirocco
luzia
Solo quiero caminar
Almoramia
Fantasia
Fabulosa guitarra

I think he did as much relavant and good work in his 30s as in his 20s

cositas though
i´ve listened to it like 10 times, in 2 years or something
its not bad at all, it´s not just up to his "normal" standard

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2007 22:30:40
 
legrec

Posts: 248
Joined: Jan. 26 2006
From: France

RE: Paco de Lucia concert last night (in reply to duende

quote:

PdL did his best work in his 20's.


You know the saying in hard science fields : "if you're over 30 and didn't discovered something really "funny", it's over"... It's a bit harsh when you're over 30 like me but in "sports" like fundamentals maths it seems to be rather true...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 11 2007 0:07:51
 
Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: Paco de Lucia concert last night (in reply to legrec

Legrec, don't be down, get yourself out and go watch the new Rocky movie
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 11 2007 11:02:19
 
Rain

Posts: 475
Joined: Jul. 7 2005
 

RE: Paco de Lucia concert last night (in reply to Jim Opfer

I was at the Paco de lucia concert last night at Carnegie hall.
I was 7 rows from the stage, and I'm sorry to say that I thought that this was the worst Paco concert I ever attended.
The sound was absolutely HORRIBLE, his guitar sounded thin and metalic. Blame it on the sound guy, i guess, maybe even shoot him.
Paco started with a rodena and it was far from flawless, first 2 minutes of it it looked and sounded like he was trying to get into Aire of the piece. He sounded sloppy, and hit some dead notes on some scale runs. But the sound was killing me, it was soooooo bad. His scale runs did improve by the second half. Zyrab was a flawless but lack lustered performance. Everyone got a chance to shine, none more than the Harmonica player, who just went off and sounded amazing.
Jose's solo was ok, pacos the same, the bass player just played fast. This was the piece which brought the most excitement to the audience.

Encore was entres dos aguas, it had many new falsettas, and took alot of turns from the recorded version. Alot of fun to hear.

I would say that the huge majority of the people who attended the concert loved it. Probably did not notice the sound was just BAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
To that I say Ignorance is bliss.

I'm sorry guys but I was just not inspired by this nights performance. I can't believe that I'm even saying that or writing a negative thing about Paco.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 11 2007 14:21:35
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13331
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Paco de Lucia concert last night (in reply to Ron.M

quote:

This man is touring the world three times over with the same old tired stuff.



It is a bit of a catch 22. If he played the music from Fantasia flamenca for his entire career, many would say the same. When he came up with his newest music, people in the audience expecting the older stuff are like "what was that, is that flamenco?". I remember when he was on tour in 97 before Luizia, and I did not recognize most of the music. It was all fresh and new. I was a bit disappointed, since I wanted to see the fingering for the old la barrosa and stuff, but it was all new material. Other people in the audience I talked to were like "that was the same concert I saw him do 10 years ago".

The problem is the extra instruments and things are for the people in the audience that can't really focus on "faletas" or the music of "faletas". And believe me, that is the VAST majority. Even his worst night of playing, people will stay awake and excited until the very end (unless they are flamenco purists of course, again the minority). Of course for the folks who never saw paco before live, despite youtube and such, THIS concert what ever it was, will be memorable. Many say "that was the best concert I have ever seen!" and start looking for a flamenco teacher the next day.

OK, my view on the concert in DC. I have seen Paco 5 times. It was not his best night. He was off to a bad start as they messed up his monitor sound, forgot his footstool etc, he missed a note here or there. Once you get on that track as a performer, it is hard to get out of that funk. I recognized ONE new falseta in his bulerias solo piece, although part of it was aranged from "Volar", but to the por medio key. All the rest of the show was as I would expect it to be, but keep in mind he "improvises" a lot, there are not a lot of set in stone arrangements. It is just that I am familiar where the source material is drawn from and can predict where he will take it. I am not "bored" by that actually. He tosses in older falsetas into the group number bulerias and tangos, but nothing "new" per say, but it was a nice surprise considering the concert footage I have seen of recent shows. So over all, I am glad I went, but not his best. The others in the group were nothing special for me. Although Chonchi sang one traditional bulerias letra that "did it" for me, very nice. Montse is going deaf I think, poor thing. N. Josele has gotten his picado's into gear for the ZYRAB trade offs, very impressive, though his soloing is not in league with Canizares or Banderas at this stage. It is obvious that he is working hard on it, so good on him.

What I saw here in 2004, was maybe the BEST guitar concert I have ever seen. Paco had no second guitarist, and really carried the whole night on his shoulders. I had binoculars and watch EVERY note (I am nerd I know), and he made almost ZERO mistakes, and further more had a lot of fire in his playing. He played Solo Quiero Caminar note for note I remember. The backing band was very secondary that night, so he must of felt a need to keep the show moving. I have a DVD of him in Germany from only a few months after that night, he had a bigger group, and alot of you have seen that or parts of that show (with montse Duquende josele, etc). Nothing close to what I saw, it was like a different guy playing, very sloppy, silly mistakes and such. He played Zyrab on the wrong fret in the begginning!! The show I saw 2 nights ago was comparable to that concert video.

So I don't think is fair to write off Paco as burnt out and tired old guy cashing in just yet. Since it was not long ago and similar material music I saw that blew me away, I think he still has potential to be a butt kicking guitar monster. I agree that he has learned to rely on his group for a lot of the tour, but as I said, better that for the big audiences (totally sold out here), then for people to sit through only a guitar concert with Paco having an off night. At least the cute girls sing nice and the harmonica plays good.

Ricardo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 11 2007 15:32:42
 
Thomas Whiteley

 

Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Paco de Lucia concert last night (in reply to Rain

quote:

I'm sorry guys but I was just not inspired by this nights performance. I can't believe that I'm even saying that or writing a negative thing about Paco.


Paco gave an excellent performance February 1st in Berkeley, California. I guess you can say that Paco is only human. Travel and all that is a part of his life style can be a pain! You are not always up to what you are capable of and may let the audience down.

By the way the sound was excellent at the Berkeley performance.

_____________________________

Tom
http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/flamenco.html
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 11 2007 19:36:36
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Paco de Lucia concert last night (in reply to Ricardo

Ricardo,
You are too decent a guy!
Since you are a working musician, you give a lot of understanding to the person on stage and the problems they may be having.

Actually, Gerardo Nuñez actually didn't have any problems with sound or chairs etc when he appeared in a little unimportant Scottish city called Dundee.
Why?
Because he arrived a few hours early and checked everything himself and sat for about a half hour getting the sound system just right.
(Jim Opfer and I watched him)

So Paco arrives in Washington DC, the Capital of the USA to do a major concert..and his monitor isn't right...and his footstool wasn't there..or his chair was the wrong height?

Gimme a break man...

Next thing...is the guy in the mood or not?

I'm not saying Paco is "burned out" because he "can't" do it anymore, but is burned out because he "can't be bothered" doing it anymore.
The appearance fee to him is the same regardless and his reputation precedes him anyway.

Look...I've seen a lot of musicians work under pressure, but when I take 2 days off work because I have to travel 300 miles, overnight at a hotel and pay rock star prices for a ticket, then I expect a performer to at least do his best and not look totally bored and leave it up to a non-inspired group of hired friends to carry the evening.

That's unprofessional IMO.

Thing is, Paco's had it too easy.
He's been the subject of adulation since he was a kid.
Other artists have to work.

Which brings me on to my second, point of money.
I believe, (and this is only conjecture here) that Paco had a rude awakening in seeing all these Rock stars fall all over him and tell him how wonderful he was, then climb into their chaffeur-driven limos, back to their Rock-star mansions in the country.
I think that altered Paco's vision of the music scene.
He was pretty well-off, but his fellow admiring musicians were filthy-rich.

"Paco de Lucia" is a valuable designer label IMO.

Third point..
The upload that was posted from the Washington concert, showed Paco playing "Entre Dos Aguas" to a whooping audience.
Frankly, with the Bass, Cajon and Harmonica sounded to me like an average 70's "Progressive- Rock", Electro/Acoustic band.
Didn't make me think anything at all about Flamenco!

I know you are a very well-listened and broad minded guy about music in general, so I'm sure you would have got the Flamenco connection.
But honestly Ricardo, if I'm in that kind of listening mood, I'd much rather listen to a good Rock band myself...

Without going into the whole Trad/Modern argument..folk are always telling me that "Flamenco has got to evolve"...
So that Banjos, Harmonicas, Cellos and Harpsichords are Flamenco so long as the adhere to some kind of identifiable Flamenco compás.

IMO, I really don't think so.
In my mind there is Flamenco and Nuevo Flamenco.
Nuevo Flamenco is not actually a genre IMO, but anything the individual artist wants it to be.
So there are all kinds of Nuevo Flamenco.

Whereas Flamenco, still seems to be healthily going on and on in the peñas of Andalucia, sounding much as it did when I first started listening 35 years ago, albeit with many more interesting chords and rhythmic interpretations.
No banjo or flute etc to be heard anywhere!

You mention that a lot of the audience was comprised of folk who knew little or nothing about Flamenco, but that some of the guitarists amongs them would be looking for a Flamenco guitar teacher this week.

I would wager that most of them would be keen on learning how to "shred" on a nylon string acoustic guitar and once you make it clear to them that there's a little bit more to it than that, they'll quickly drop out again!

In saying all that, Paco is still my favourite guitarist of all time.
His precision and speed of technique and clarity of composition when he was in his 20's is unrivalled IMO.
Nobody like him.

But would I go to another of his concerts, now?

...Nah!


cheers

Ron

_____________________________

A good guitar might be a good guitar
But it takes a woman to break your heart
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 11 2007 21:37:04
Guest

RE: Paco de Lucia concert last night (in reply to Ron.M

anyway guys nobody can deny that he isthe king...... i wish i was there even just looking to him inspires me ......... + i think if any human prof was sick or something he s nt going to be in the mood ...dont know ifhe was or nt ..but i still say he is the hero........

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 11 2007 21:51:28
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Paco de Lucia concert last night (in reply to Guest

LOL!
And if you weren't well then I'm really sure that if Security had to allow you in to cast your unworthy eyes upon that cultivated "bum-wino" face and touch the hem of his cloak, then you too would be healed my son....



cheers

Ron

_____________________________

A good guitar might be a good guitar
But it takes a woman to break your heart
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 11 2007 22:31:06
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13331
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Paco de Lucia concert last night (in reply to Ron.M

Ron, I honestly believe, if Paco was having a good night the time you saw him, your thoughts would be different. I mean, he does several guitar solos, it is not a total "fusion" concert. It is more about expression than anything. True, it is not fair that he is not "in the mood" every night, but even Gerardo will have an off night believe it or not. Perhaps if we follow Paco around on tour we can really see and judge if the guy is generally having more bad nights than good or not.

Remember I posted "la barrosa" live, and you said there was nothing like that that you saw in your neck of the woods. Well, that is bs because he does many of those same falsetas. It is just that when he is really inspired or on top of his game, it comes off differently, then when he is having on off night. It is a shame that if you are an artist and you DO have a bad night, some folks that were expecting more, will never forget, and as you are pointing out, will not even give a second chance. Well, for me, I forgive and that is the nature of art. I really hope to catch certain artists inspired.

I saw Vicente 3 times. First time, not so good. Second time worse. 3rd time had newer music, and I thought "why am I subjecting myself once more", but you know what, it was really surprisingly good. I was inspired. But you have to be willing to stay open to that. I think if the 3rd time was bad, I might not try to see him again.

Ron, how many times have you seen Paco live?

Ricardo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 11 2007 23:01:43
 
legrec

Posts: 248
Joined: Jan. 26 2006
From: France

RE: Paco de Lucia concert last night (in reply to Ron.M

Terrific post, Ron. I can't say much on Paco's concerts cos i never saw one but I tend to agree to all the rest about Paco and flamenco...

I also agree a lot with that :
quote:

It is a shame that if you are an artist and you DO have a bad night, some folks that were expecting more, will never forget, and as you are pointing out, will not even give a second chance


Shame to this BS in music today to give the impression that artists are some machine performers and always "at their best"...most of the stars on MTV looks like decathlonians to me (and with the same steroids/coke in their veins, to be "on top").
Not much to do with art.
So yes, let's be "forgiving" with artist's bad concerts or albums...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 11 2007 23:08:02
 
Mark2

Posts: 1696
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Paco de Lucia concert last night (in reply to Ron.M

Ron, I understand your disapointment after having sacrificed so much to see a concert, but to balance things out consider that Paco has been doing it for what, 45 years? And I also saw him in 2004 and every guitarist in town was there. I talked to few at intermission and their minds were blown. It was a buleria fest with crazy falsetas flying out of his guitar.
I'm not a professional, but for me every day is a different deal with regard to what my fingers are capable of. My first teacher, who was a pro, was the same. He had different falsetas for different days. I wouldn't be at all surprised if there are days that Paco can't play all his hardest stuff. In any case, to say he may not be the most innovative, the most exciting, the very best, at 60 years of age and 50 years into the greatest career a flamenco ever had isn't really shocking. It might be true that he can't accomplish anything he hasn't already accomplished. Hopefully he's having fun. He's certainly earned it. I didn't go this year, but I'll cetainly hope to see him play again.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2007 2:49:21
 
musicmaker

 

Posts: 24
Joined: Jan. 23 2007
From: Lincoln,NE

RE: Paco de Lucia concert last night (in reply to Ron.M

This discussion reminds me of the many critics who bad mouthed Miles Davis when he was in his later years but were unaware that he purposely was going through an inventive stage fusing jazz with other genres and helping budding musicians along the way. I see Paco doing some of the same and its not a bad thing. I find myself influenced by many different sounds as I approach my 70's even though I could play the thousands of songs I used to pretty much the same as before, I don't want to. It is musical death to my way of thinking when a musician only repeats the same stuff over and over...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2007 5:07:11
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Paco de Lucia concert last night (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Ron, how many times have you seen Paco live?


Hi Ricardo,
That's the only practical opportunity I've had I'm afraid.
In the past, these big-acts have mainly been in London only.

Actually, the older I get, the less inclined I am to face the hassles associated with big-venue concerts, like the travel, pot-luck with the seating, pot luck with the sound, the couple next to you who can't keep quiet for 10 seconds, everyone pouring out onto the street at the end all looking for taxis, buses, food or pubs at the same time...
In the old days, that would really be your only chance to see your favourite artists, but with more and more DVDs becoming available, you can now see some great stuff in the comfort of your own home, with great sound, bags of close-ups and ability to pause, rewind or skip bits...

I know you don't get the same "buzz" of a live venue, but it's certainly got it's compensations.

cheers

Ron

_____________________________

A good guitar might be a good guitar
But it takes a woman to break your heart
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2007 13:33:19
 
Crows

 

Posts: 89
Joined: Sep. 27 2004
 

RE: Paco de Lucia concert last night (in reply to Ron.M

I saw Paco a couple of years ago at a gig in the Nerja caves. I enjoyed the music for what it was. I don't mind Cositas, it's a pretty good crossover album, and the Cameron sample stops me in my tracks every time.
What I wanted to say was that although the music at the gig was in the main pretty steady, the atmosphere was great! Really buzzing and a great sense of expectation inside and outside the venue. When he took the stage the noise was more akin to a football match. It was a really memorable experience, a celebration. So, I'm glad that I saw Paco
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2007 14:50:39
 
NeZ

 

Posts: 96
Joined: Feb. 14 2007
 

RE: Paco de Lucia concert last night (in reply to Ron.M

I went to the Chicago show last night. This is the first time I've seen Paco live. And frankly, the first time I've been to a flamenco show of any sort.

It was at Symphony Hall on Michigan Ave; it's a very nice venue. I had an excellent seat about 15 or so rows from the front and to the left of the stage.

Paco was a little slow in getting warmed up. The first song that he played solo was very good but there were a couple times where it sounded to me like he either missed notes or was a little off time with the very fast sections. He played much better after the intermission.

Overall, I liked the sections of the show that focused on the guitar playing more than the full band sections.

All the musicians were obviously very accomplished but some of the music wasn't to my taste. The two women singers were excellent but I'm not sure I enjoyed their singing style all that much.

I really disliked when he had a keyboard as one of the instruments. It sounded way too new-agey for me. I also thought the electric bass was a little out of place.

Overall, it was a good show and worth the price of admission. The audience seemed to like it. Although, the whole thing was a bit somber. During the songs there wasn't much energy coming from either the stage or the audience.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 14 2007 21:50:36
 
el ted

 

Posts: 466
Joined: Nov. 13 2003
 

RE: Paco de Lucia concert last night (in reply to Ron.M

I'm glad Ron had the balls to make that first post. I haven't! I thought it was just me who felt that way. Far be it from me to criticise Paco, but the programme he playing now, is pretty much the same as when I heard him ten years ago. I buy all Paco's CD releases as a matter of routine but I don't play 'Cositas' much except as background music whilst I de-flea the dog or something.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 16 2007 9:47:43
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13331
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Paco de Lucia concert last night (in reply to Ron.M

OK, rather than going on this old hat bashing Paco for his "band", why not everyone post a concert program that THEY would like to see Paco perform? Including personel (ONLY paco?, second guitar only?, singers?, percussion, digeree doo?) and track list. I will start, OK?

Paco solo:
Nino curro
Impetu
Guajiras de Lucia
Plaza Alta
Bulerias por medio with certain falsetas from "El Tempul", "Punta del Faro", right up to current material. Yeah that would be like a 15 minute piece!
With Palmas:
La Barrosa
Fandangos de Huelva, mixing "Aires Choqueros" with newer material.
Soniquete (zyrab version complete), perhaps some newer falsetas from "Cositas" tossed in here.

Guitar duet (I like Banderas better than Canizares, but does not really matter), choose 1 or 2 from:
Columbianas
Dengue
Tanguillo

With cante:
Solo of choice by paco's "cameronero" of choice. Paco accompanies, only himself and singer. I like Granaina, Solea, whatever the singer wants.
Tangos (here the with palmas, maybe second guitar, but all improvised with paco sticking in various falsetas between letras. Not too different than what he does already, but less "arranged".)
Bulerias fiesta, improvised letras and falsetas, but very traditional style.

OK that is. Then an encore of course he has to play a medly of his famous rumbas, but needs to include "Chanela" for a change.

Ricardo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 16 2007 16:16:03
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Paco de Lucia concert last night (in reply to Ricardo

Ricardo,
The concert you have just outlined would be absolutely perfect for me anyway!
I'd definitely go to see that.

cheers,

Ron

_____________________________

A good guitar might be a good guitar
But it takes a woman to break your heart
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 16 2007 16:44:14
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