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Ricardo
Posts: 14855
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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 RE: chord list (in reply to Guest)
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quote:
One of the ways of establishing an Ionian sound is two five one, no ?
Sorry man NOOO! That was the point I made earlier. That is just THE numero uno and only way to make or establish a MAJOR OR MINOR key. That is the point of tonality.
IONIAN is a mode, or it is supposed to be. You have to deliberatley avoid the 5 (V) chord as to really hear Ionian different than major. Same with Aeolian and minor. 2-3-1, yes its Ionian, 2-1, yes, 4-1, yes, 1-3-4, yes, 1-6-3, yes, 4-5-1 NO, 2-5-1 NO, etc. Get it? Honestly you should think of 1 as the FIRST chord, the rhythmic placement is important. The first thing you hear sets it up. Other wise, it sounds more like the other mode. These are SUPOSSED to be modal vamps. Bi tonal means to me, you could change scales. You use one scale, THE MODE, the emphasise on tonic has to be rhythmic too, you keep it going to 1. But it doesn't "resolve" because you don't ever have 5-1. That establishes a tonal key, and kills modality. Modes are a state, a vibe. They don't go anywhere or "resolve".
That is why flamenco is a hybrid. I has lots of tonal resolutions all the time. Saeta, martinete, sometime siguiryas, are purely modal, depends what the guitar does or doesn't do.
Ricardo
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Feb. 5 2007 17:49:51
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guitarbuddha
Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
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RE: chord list (in reply to Guest)
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Ricardo surely my last post makes it clear that I know this. Please read it again.
The organisation of tones in the Major scale and the Ionian mode ARE identical. Surely this use is justified.
I felt this when i found it in Rennaissance music. Not Just Milan but Fuenllana and the Josquin De Prez madrigals which he transcribes.
The fact that the TREATMENT makes a difference is one that I mention in my post.
The excercise I use to help me feel this is a great one.
I take a simple major key folk tune and harmonise it as simply as I can using only I IV and V only changing chord when I really have to.
Say Old Lang Syne.
I sing it a few times ( just 8 bars of harmony I V I IV , I V IV I ) to fix the pitches in my ear.
Then I get clever. Being sure to keep the pitches the same then move all the chords up a third diatonically ( sing the whole thing through a few times of course ), then down a third diatonically ( the first one is really good as the tonic makes a minor sixth with the iii chord ). Now after Ive done this I harmonise it as I see fit. And wow do the original chords give effect when i insert them. Try it, its really nice Im sure you'll enjoy it.
The reason I started doing this kind of thing was that I love this when it happens in pop ( Space Oddity is a personal favourite ). Jazz theory ignores this, dismisses it as modal ( no discussion ) then dives back to II V I's, and to my ear too much chord subitution (in terms of moving through keys isnt what Im looking for in my music. So I decided to systematise my exploration of church modes. Good aural training too.
Here in scotland we have a lot of modal music and they call music based on non-cyclic chord oscillations bi-tonal. Perhaps they mean that the root of either mode can be assumed to be the harmonic centre. I personally think the deciding factors are as I detailed in my previous post.
Also it is very common to to avoid spelling out seven tones in the melody for long periods to. Ie, oscillation between D major triad and A with no third in fiddle music. This general avoidance of seventh probably comes from the fact that Scots bagpipes have a really funky out of tune seventh. You could also describe this as pentatonic or hemiatonic but
it depends on the treatment.
If the seventh is eventuall used then it is really telling point in the music. In the above it is usially MIXOLYDIAN that is established from C ( minor third in A ).
Sorry if I keep contrading your contradictions. Maybe my posts aren't clear enough. Woops.
I suppise we are a pair of hopeless pedants. 
PS if you do it the singing excercise the other way round ( modal to ionian with a different tonic for the harmonisation but all of the original pitches unchanged ) then that sounds good too.
I love the way there are so many ways at looking at things and that although they may seem to contradict each other they can all be applied to some effect. How well the applications work is a matter of taste.
Try the singing thing ( also melodies which can be harmonised with only one and five are good ).
If you find an application for flamenco melodies ( im not sure how you deal with the augmented second - well I do but avoiding the III7b9 ( phrygian dominant resolution )part of the melody isnt so satisfying....
I wont object.
David.
P.S For my ear four five one absolutely, definately establishes major tonality. So also do II7 V7 I ( in Bach and country ), ii bII7b5 I , bVIMaj 7 V one and all the others( theres a good long discussion of these and all of the Bartok substitution in Harmony With Lego bricks by Conrad Cork ) . They all give it a different colour but when we arrive on the tonic we know we are home.
Also there is IV iv I then there's Schuberts use of pivot chords, different again. But you know all this.
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Feb. 5 2007 18:50:09
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Ricardo
Posts: 14855
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: chord list (in reply to guitarbuddha)
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quote:
Ricardo surely my last post makes it clear that I know this. Please read it again.
The organisation of tones in the Major scale and the Ionian mode ARE identical. Surely this use is justified.
Hmm, I guess I don't get what you mean. The use of terminology is justified? It seemed clear to me you were infering Ionian music and major key music are the same, since they have the same notes in the scale. Sorry if I got that wrong. My point was that you (meaning any one reading actually interested in what we are talking about?) should not confuse the terminology, since "ionian" implies modality, ie, no real harmonizations or progressions, and "Major" implies progression of chords that establish a key, requiring a V-I somewhere. No doubt I understand you know the notes of the two scales are Identical. Just the scales alone, the terms are interchangeable. But it is when applying them to harmony that you have to becareful with meaning. Again, my microscopic focus, rather than big picture.
Some folks think of ii-V-I in G major is A dorian-D mixolydian-G ionian. This is not false. But if you go further and just say it is ALL simply G ionian, that is the point I say is not the best description. It is better to say it is ALL G major. The modes have to be more focused if you are going to use the terms to relate scales and chords.
Your Old lang Syne example is a good way to learn how to hear how harmony colors melodies and affects mood. But it is still a rather tonal approach. I suggest some other ideas to go along with it. Lets say Old Lang Syne is in C major. Chords I-V-I-IV are C-G-C-F, right? Ok, rather than reharmonize each chord with something else (up a minor third, down a third, up a second diatonic), Just play the whole song over a Dm7 chord, never change chords. Now the melody is no longer "major", it is Dorian. Now play the entire melody over F maj7. Now the melody sounds Lydian. ETC. That is the modal approach...no progressions. Of course there are some safe ways to use other chords that still maintain the "modal" sound, but too many other chords start to make the tonality sound ambiguous. Of course any dominant chord will make the piece sound tonal again. How about Am-E7-Am-Dm. That changes the tune to the key of A minor, the relative minor. But you can make it sound Aeolian instead, just by making the E chord minor.
Anyway that is sort of what I am getting at with making the distinction between modes. The bi-tonal thing, I see your point, and that is why I said rhythm plays a big part when vamping over two chords, to becareful not to lose the mode you want, for the sake of the other chord. It is safer to first learn modes with only ONE chord, to really drive the point home, or have a bass pedal not change under the two chords.
Another VERY important point you made regarding the 7th scale degree being omited. I realized the importance one note makes for coloring the overall mood a while back. If you have the C#, or C natural, you have completely different vibe. Deliberately avoiding that note introduces ambiguity, which I guess is the point. But it is not just that ONE note. The reason the note is so important is because that note makes a tritone to another note in the scale. That is the real "color" relative to tonic. C#-G or C-F#. You can't avoid creating that relative sound to the whole music picture. But look at the other two notes. If you avoid one of those notes instead, you have a similar ambiguity to the key. Lets say you have C natural in your melody, but no F# or F natural. Your song could be D minor (dorian) based or D major (mixolydian). So it is the tritone interval, one of the two notes, that helps establish your overall mood relative to tonic, and when you change key by a 4th or 5th, you are changing one of the two notes of the tritone, or rather shifting it's relative position to the song. In effect, you "change key" however briefly, by adding an accidental "for color". Adding an accidental, ANY accidental to a scale with at least 6 notes, creates a tritone to some other note.
That goes back to the importance of the modal exercise I posted originally.  You learn exactly how to brighten or darken your "mood" by focus on one or two important intervals.
So it looks like we are in agreement on everything, just adding some stuff to your ideas. Oh, except for the Ionian-Major thing. But maybe I cleared it up this time?
Ricardo
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Feb. 6 2007 5:08:26
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