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Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Gerundino played by Ricardo? (in reply to MKodji)
Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Yeah this is my friend's Gerundino. He has a couple nice guitars and needed to get some money together because he is buying a house. I loved this guitar, very "flamenco". At the time of that filiming (a few months ago), I thought the action could come down a hair. He lowered it, and now it is killer. Sorry I am not too sure why this guitar would be "authentic" or not. Do you mean because Gerundino stopped making at some point? Not sure what to look for to figure that out. I can only tell if a guitar is good or not. I would not have let myself get caught on vid if it was not a real good guitar. I played some other Gerundino's which I assume were "authentic", and this one compares favorably to those.
My friend was selling 2 other guitars, and I think I made a vid for one other too. There was a Contreras Valbuena, really nice flamenco guitar that had a mix of rosewood and cypress on the back and sides, and he was selling a Conde too, but I bought that one.
Anyway, I do recommend this guitar for anyone seriously interested.
RE: Gerundino played by Ricardo? (in reply to Ricardo)
Thanks Ricardo. just wanted to get the opinion of the player. I am looking for a good blanca. Because of the rumors on late Gerundino guitars being made by others... wanted to check that.
I am looking for a Reyes or anything in that level... Let me know if you know one.
RE: Gerundino played by Ricardo? (in reply to MKodji)
The price is very high, no? Is Gerundi so famous? I never heared about him before. I dont know if that is in balance with the sound of the guitar. In my opinion it snares a little bit too much. It has a deep round sound, I ike that. (Dont know to describe this) Its sad that you didnt played the treble strings. Now we only know how the basses sound. For 6000$ its possible to play one more falseta with treble included, no? :.) You know I like you playing, and ant moore! hehe all in all seems to be a good guitar with a small lack in the settings of the stringhight. But thats only a personal taste. I like clear sound, like your conde.
RE: Gerundino played by Ricardo? (in reply to Doitsujin)
quote:
The price is very high, no?
$6k is a snip for a Gerundino.
Ricardo, later guitars were first of all 'finished' then more recently 'made' by Gonzalez. The ones that were made by Gonzalez have a joint maker label. True Gerundinos are easy to spot. The workmanship is rough in places, the headstock carving is normally well carved but can be a bit to one side. There would be a stamp into the wood on the back of the headstock and also burned into the wood inside the guitar (at the neck joint). The bridge is normally quite roughly glued to the top with yellow glue lines visible. The heel is normally made 'blunt' and doesn't come to a point like most makers. The shelac would have visible run marks normally on the sides. The thing about his workmanship is that is all looks to have been hurried in places where he was not particulary concerned because the main thing for him was his sound. Big growling bases with mournful quality and bright sharp razor trebbles. The whole guitar will vibrate and there is normally a gritty almost human quality to the voice almost the opposite to Conde. I've owned 3 Gerundinos and they have all been like this.
RE: Gerundino played by Ricardo? (in reply to MKodji)
Jim your post looks like you know what you are talking about. Why is 6000$ a snip for Gerundino guitars? Thats no try to provoke. Im really interested in knowing more about this guitarmaker and what legitimates such prices.
Posts: 4516
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
RE: Gerundino played by Ricardo? (in reply to Ricardo)
When i compare the sound of this Guitar and the Sanchiz Carpio which you played in that Bulerias Video on youtube...i prefer the Sanchis Carpio (which has a much lower price). Don't know about the playability. Just talking about sound.
BTW Doitsujin. I saw two used 1975 Gerundinos in Mundo Flamencos shop, each for 7500,00 Euros ..(so each one bout 9000,00 $!). !!!
However i am sure that when you pay such prices (Gerundino, Reyes..etc.).....you pay 50% for the quality ...and 50% only for the name!
RE: Gerundino played by Ricardo? (in reply to Doitsujin)
quote:
Im really interested in knowing more about this guitarmaker and what legitimates such prices.
Hi Doitsujin,
True Gerundinos are exceptional and hard to find offered for sale. If you want to play a fine instrument and take pleasure from it's sound then a Gerundino will offer this but like all things the quality of individual guitars can vary. With regard to the price, $6k today will be $7k in a years time and so on. Supply has stopped and demand will increase. So you can look at it as just buying an excillent instrument or as an excillent investment. As I said before on Foro, 'spending money is when you buy a bar of chocolate and eat it.' You should do some searching around the web and read up on him.
RE: Gerundino played by Ricardo? (in reply to Arash)
quote:
However i am sure that when you pay such prices (Gerundino, Reyes..etc.).....you pay 50% for the quality ...and 50% only for the name!
Hi Arash,
That's interesting. It just made me think I should reply but then I found it hard to know just what to say
You see it made me want to ask, what do you mean by 'the quality' and how is this assessed? I have tried lots of very well made guitars that look exquisite but the sound is dead. However, they have great 'quality' in their workmanship. I remember seeing a first attempt amature hand made guitar that was not symetrical and all a bit squint, but it had a very nice classical sound, so it had 'quality'. I agree that 'the name' influences the value and that's because the maker puts his hand on the wood to make the guitar and only he can do that. Gerundino was not a flash personality who made efforts to promote his guitars. From all accounts, he was a very humble man who became well known because the guitars spoke for themselves. Tomas or Anders will know better than I do but fame found him because of what he did.
Posts: 1759
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands
RE: Gerundino played by Ricardo? (in reply to Doitsujin)
Hi Doitsujin,
I am sure you heared about Paco del Gastor, Paco Pena, maybe since you live in Germany about Eric Vaarzon Morel, ( He played a lot in the past in Germany and Swiss with his group "flamencos en Route ").
Posts: 4516
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
RE: Gerundino played by Ricardo? (in reply to Jim Opfer)
Hi Jim,
by quality i meant the combination of all factors which make a guitar a good guitar, but most important for me : sound + playability.
However just let me say to you what i think:
I think 2 young motivated good guitar builders (like Hnos. Sanchis Lopez) who are almost at the beginning of their way , build better guitars for the price which you pay than old Maestros who have already achieved everything and who have already a name.
By the way...i heard that Conde Hermanos lets the Sanchis Lopez brothers build some of their guitars and then sells them under the name of Conde. Not sure if this is true but i heard this from many people also from the owner of a big flamenco guitar shop in Germany. So if this is true, why should i go and buy a Conde ? am i stupid ?
RE: Gerundino played by Ricardo? (in reply to MKodji)
quote:
authentic??
I believe the all Gerundino made guitars were from the late 90's and down. I think from 2000 up, Juan Miguel Gonzalez helped him out a little but not sure if all these share two labels, Gerundino's and Juan's. I think there are some late Gerundino models that were made by Gonzalez with Gerundino's label.
RE: Gerundino played by Ricardo? (in reply to Arash)
Hi Arash,
You make good points.
The point I am making is that Gerundino's guitars are exceptional and that is why they are highly valued.
I take your point about young builders and I fully support buying guitars from new young makers. I know this from personal experience and I can strongly recommend Stephen Hill to anyone wanting to buy a top quality new guitar. Anders makes great sounding hand built guitars and Pablo Requena is also a talented maker now selling his guitars on GSI.
The Conde guitars you mention are the lower models although I expect somone somewhere will dissagree. Most pros prefer to play Conde guitars including some of the guys on Foro so why should you feel it is stupid to buy one?
I've heard many times that Sanchis Carpio guitars are very good and I'm sure that is true but I've never played one.
Posts: 4516
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
RE: Gerundino played by Ricardo? (in reply to Jim Opfer)
Hey Jim,
quote:
The point I am making is that Gerundino's guitars are exceptional and that is why they are highly valued.
Could be. I don't know. I never played one. If they are really 7 times better than my 1000 Euro Sanchis Lopez, then i will definately pay 7000 Euros and buy one!
quote:
The Conde guitars you mention are the lower models
Ok....but what does this show to you about Conde? This shows to me followings: Conde misuses his name from good old days to sell guitars over price without making any effort. Such a company is not trustable for me anymore!
quote:
Most pros prefer to play Conde guitars including some of the guys on Foro so why should you feel it is stupid to buy one?
I think many people buy Conde just because everyone is saying Conde Conde Conde.... Yes I know there are exceptional Conde Guitars from the 90s like that one from Chicuelo (which BTW has one of the best Blanca sound in my eyes) ....BUT....i know that the chance to have a such a Conde is quitelow. Those who have the GOOD Condes...don't sell them ...and those Condes which are for sale (i don't want to say all of them but most of them) ...are the suspect ones or let say avarage ones. I think the time is over for Conde. There is so much competition, good competition from other Guitar builders, that it would be stupid to pay so much money for the newer Condes which are nothing special. Just see how many Condes are for sale......and ask yourself why.....
No offence to anyone who has a Conde or wants to buy/sell Conde. This is just how i see the things now. I was also thinking to buy a A26 Conde a while ago but now i will buy something else after some discussions with an insider!
RE: Gerundino played by Ricardo? (in reply to MKodji)
I have several of Gerundino that I bought direct from him. You can read about Gerundino on my web site and more important you can hear and see his guitars in the sound and movie clips on my web site. Also you can see a slide show of his guitars. You can also compare with Requena which aslo you can see in a movie clip in my site. The Gerundino with wood pegs 1965 is now for sale at 100,0000,0000,000,,000000,000000000
Saludos Tomás Ps a good price because it is worth about 100,0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,00000000000000000000000000000,000000000000000000000000000000000
RE: Gerundino played by Ricardo? (in reply to Arash)
quote:
Ok....but what does this show to you about Conde? This shows to me followings: Conde misuses his name from good old days to sell guitars over price without making any effort. Such a company is not trustable for me anymore!
Bikhiyal, just about every "big" name maker offers these lower priced or student models guitars. Most are not even made by them but they still put their label inside. Not just Conde. Ramirez, Manuel Reyes, even Felix Manzanero do this.
Even Sanchis Lopez. The 2F and I think the F03 is made by their craftsmen.
Doesn't mean that all these types of guitars are bad. Does it really matter who makes it? If it looks good, feels good, plays good and sounds good, it must be good. Regardless of who makes it.
Posts: 4516
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
RE: Gerundino played by Ricardo? (in reply to TANúñez)
quote:
Even Sanchis Lopez. The 2F and I think the F03 is made by their craftsmen.
Doesn't mean that all these types of guitars are bad. Does it really matter who makes it? If it looks good, feels good, plays good and sounds good........
Yes ....AND the price is good!!
My point was only that if you want the get the best price-performance ratio , then there are better alternatives.
Of course if money is not a problem, then it is something different.
RE: Gerundino played by Ricardo? (in reply to nhills)
Nhills,
Yes I've noticed too this apparently wonderful sounding Santos Bayon...But I don't know until what point we can trust Zava's soundbites. Maybe you have noticed that the sound samples improved a lot over the years. Old sample are really dull generaly, with low volume, dynamics, etc. And "abracadabra", recent ones are almost all wonderful - from the guitar at 2500$ to the one at 6000$. So I guess it's a recording "smokes & mirrors" issue for a great part...
I've almost bought a Burguet ABF negra long time ago, because of the sound samples at Zava (and a very low price). For my own sake, glad I'd been able to try the guitar first...what a classical piece of crap ! And a funny guy is now trying to sell a Burguet on ebay, saying that Burguet is one of the best luthiers in the world. - Yes, and I'm also one of the best flamenco players in the world, and also a top-class football player, and a soon nobelized scientist. It costs nothing to enjolivate a little. (Sorry for Burget lovers and owners but that particular negra I've tried was awful).
BTW : you've probably seen also the second-hand Santos Bayon in Zava's inventory, if you're interested in his guitars. It's cheap, and I know the seller is trying to sell this one since a loooong time on the web (putted on ebay with no luck months ago). I might be interested since I'm in France and the guitar is in Spain, but would like to try the guitar before...
RE: Gerundino played by Ricardo? (in reply to nhills)
How interesting to see what you say. I also liked that sound very much indeed. A few years ago I played one of his guitars in his taller in Madrid. Yes, it was incredible but I could not pay it then. He also showed to me an original of Santos which was also great. In both cases when you played the arrastre from 2nd to 7th fret on deep string 6th as in Granaína you could hear perfectly the separation over each fret. Not just one long note but each note. I liked it a lot. I may buy that guitar.
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Gerundino played by Ricardo? (in reply to Arash)
quote:
I think 2 young motivated good guitar builders (like Hnos. Sanchis Lopez) who are almost at the beginning of their way , build better guitars for the price which you pay than old Maestros who have already achieved everything and who have already a name.
By the way...i heard that Conde Hermanos lets the Sanchis Lopez brothers build some of their guitars and then sells them under the name of Conde. Not sure if this is true but i heard this from many people also from the owner of a big flamenco guitar shop in Germany. So if this is true, why should i go and buy a Conde ? am i stupid ?
Hi. I was hoping to find out some secrete about this by comparing many models and such. In the end, I feel that there is something in the pattented design of Conde that gives it a stronger mid range or something, assuming the guitars are made by some other company who's OWN best or comparable guitar does not stand up. The low end Conde's made by Sanchis, including one i know from Atocha that has the Sanchis stamp inside, are actually comparable in PRICE to the actual makers price. In other words, the $1700 Sanchis model that is similar to the low end Conde, or student model that is around or just under $2000. So sure a few hundered buck for the name and specific design.
But when you get to the concert guitars, sorry, I have not seen any Sanchis or other maker rumored to make Conde, that is the same at that higher price Range (4k+ about). I know Conde has jumped up since a while back, but now I feel there may be something to the design itself that sets it apart. Believe me, I was really hoping to find a guitar under 2K that corresponded to the sound of the A26/A25 (now going for 7k). The negras especially don't come close. The top sanchis I have played is around 4k, but it is not comparing to the A model Conde. Is the difference worth it? Well, to me it would be, depends on my budget. You can find a used Conde for around 4-5K, if you are lucky.
You might prefer the sound of the Sanchis in my vid to the sound of my conde, but all I can say is that it matters to me, I can feel it in the response. The Sanchis is fun to play and accompany with, since it is mainly strumming chords. But it does not compare "voice" wise to any of the conde's I have owned or tried in the concert price range. I would not do a solo recital with that guitar, unless I had no choice. Like most guitars, you notice the difference in the trebles more than anything.
And speaking of Trebles, I recorded more on that vid obviously, but the owner edited it down for time, and just picked his favorite parts I guess. I can't really remember anymore. I too am surprised this came up because I could not find the link either on the zavaleta site when my friend said he listed it. Regarding the specs, like I said it is not my guitar and I am not sure I can check out the details, but I do remember only one lable inside, and the owner pointing out details to me as mentioned about craftmanship.
RE: Gerundino played by Ricardo? (in reply to Arash)
Bikhiyal,
quote:
If they are really 7 times better than my 1000 Euro Sanchis Lopez, then i will definately pay 7000 Euros and buy one!
Now that I've been able to play and own expensive guitars, I must add that, in my humble opinion, things are not like that (price x 7 = quality x 7). Like in almost all "luxuous" things out there, when you come close to the "top range", the price is sort of exponential but not the quality or efficiency.
My Devoe, a 1996 like one that have been sold at 7750$ at Dan Zeff is not 8 times better than my Raimundo 145. Perhaps 4 times better - it's very hard to state anything because it's related to the piece, my playing, the mood of the guitar, etc.
But I want to add that even knowing this it's not possible to conclude that up to 3000$, all guitars are the same and you're only paying for the label ! (I've read this on another foro). Top guitars really have a "magical" thing which inspires the player. I think Jim or Ron told something similar, and better than me, in an old post. So I guess sometimes the price difference is really explained, even if the difference is subtle and not in a pure proportional relation between quality and price.
One somehow "recent" problem with guitars I think is big business and speculation, since the 70-80's : relation between price/fame/"quality" seems to be more and more confused. I feel that the relation between the cost of something and his "value" is getting everyday much foggy in our society. Fame and power of "imposition" (marketting, shop availability, etc) are working against the ability to estimate correctly the value of something depending on the price. And it's also working against small and "discrete" builders. The best guitar I've ever played was made by an almost totally ignored builder from France. The worst (for the price) was probably a Conde...
RE: Gerundino played by Ricardo? (in reply to Tomás Jiménez)
quote:
Ps a good price because it is worth about 100,0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,00000000000000000000000000000,000000000000000000000000000000000
You are right. Thats more or less what my guitars are worth as well
Well, Prices..... We´ve been through this several times and prices are the way they are. If someone is willing to pay... Then its the price. How much is a Ferrari? how much is a standard classical concert trumpet? ..... I´ve said this before..... Guitars are cheap.
RE: Gerundino played by Ricardo? (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
quote:
Guitars are cheap
I would agree with Anders that hand-built World class guitars are very inexpensive in comparison to other instruments. Sure, if you are pretty broke to begin with, then they are expensive!
On the "7 times better" issue, I agree with Bikhiyal, that "The Law of Diminishing Returns" applies here, but if you are a keen guitarist, who has the money and have in your hands an exceptional guitar, which you feel has that little something that your very best guitar does not....AND you are unlikely to come across another anytime soon.... You know that if you don't buy it then it won't hang around for a few months waiting for you to make your mind up...someone else is gonna buy it!
So the temptation is to reach for that cheque book!
As Jim has already said... If you buy a bar of chocolate or go out for an expensive dinner...then the money's gone. If you buy a World Class Guitar and take care of it, it will be worth more in years to come...so you get to play it for free until you decide to sell it.
cheers
Ron
_____________________________
A good guitar might be a good guitar But it takes a woman to break your heart
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