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Conde kit?
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Anders Eliasson
Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
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 RE: Conde kit? (in reply to RobJe)
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quote:
Therefore i don't know if overtones are basically something bad in a flamenco guitar. Too long sustain is a bad thing though.
In my opinion, and its based on a lot of guitarist input as well, High overtones or harmonics are very nice to a certain degree and I personally prefer guitars with some high overtones. But they must die of. If not, what happens is what Ricardo describes very well: It gets muddy. Very dry guitars can be very fun to play for a while, but if they are to dry (read few high overtones) me and the majority of guitarists I´ve known get tired when playing the guitar. These guitars never forgive anything and you have to create all the sound. A nice touch of high harmonics just creates this "space" of sound, which I find inspiring. Peghead blancas can be VERY dry. I tried a Very nice peghead by a very famous maker and the guitars was VERY good. I did not like to play it and most others agree, but some few just love this almost banjo sound (spoink) or almost like playing with a sponge without loosing volume.
Sabicas guitar has a lot of high harmonics and is very trebly. I like it but prefer a bit more bottom end. Always remember that Sabicas guitar has also been through a Mixer, plus I have a feeling he´s playing with very new and thin strings with a very low setup.
Sustain... No or at least not to much. I personally like the basses to be deep and powerfull, but they must die out fast. If not muddy things happen. I like deep basses because they make the overall sound beautifull.
So now we have Deep dry basses and high trebles with a bit of harmonics and there´s where the discussion normally end. That what people talk about, what they find interesting............ BUT
The most important thing........... Midrange....... Thats where most things happen and not just in flamenco guitars. Have a chat with electrical guitarists (I was one myself, I´ve been in studios and have build a few elctrical guitars) They are all over the place with midrange. Its considered to be art to be able to control the midrange by winding the pickup and choose the right magnet.
On flamenco guitars, the midrange is very important. Thats where the dynamics are. Thats where the pushing, the olé como toca, the rythmical aspect is going on. A guitar with little midrange sounds beautifull in a church, but in a juerga in a bar full of thick smoke and sweat, it totally disappears. By by beauty.
What is difficult is to find is the right blend. To much midrange sounds harsh or cold.
Finally I want to say that there´s no one way or one sound. It is personal. After listening to Sabicas, listen to Riqueni.... Its two different worlds. I like both, but its impossible to put both sounds into one guitar.n At this moment my favorite guitar is a Negra (the Madagascar I posted a while ago) Its very dry with few harmonics and I need to work a lot to play it, but its very vibrant and it always inspires me. But if I was to have only one guitar, I would go for a good blanca, because they generally have more midrange dynamics and in general they work better when playing with other guitars or percussion.
Well that was a long one.
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Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
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Date Jan. 10 2007 8:06:29
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Ricardo
Posts: 13944
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Conde kit? (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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quote:
I don't think action height has anything to do with it, I'd say it's mostly braces and materials but I'm not much into physics, just taking a guess.
I am no physicist, but remember reading somewhere that when the strings are closer to the soundboard (low bridge) you get a quicker response, but less sustain and volume. It is a trade off and the maker goes for some middle ground. If you raise the action significantly on your guitar you can notice it.
I just know from playing experience, that my louder guitar, oddly, did not cut through with the dancers (unamplified), than the quieter but more percussive or responive guitar. It was actually surprising, and you can't tell so much when the instrments are amplified or solo. Also, that guitar that is less forgiving (as Anders said), seems to me to respond better to dynamics.
What I mean as a player is, those guitars that are louder and have more sustain harmonics or whatever, you play easy and the guitar sounds great. But if you play REALLY hard, it does not go anywhere different,or can get muddy by overplaying. But the dry un-forgiving guitar, when you play REALLY hard, it gets better and better sounding. You can't over play it. Hard to describe in words, but I know it when playing, and it is mainly a right hand thing. I think there are many factors, and the rosewood/cypress is certainly part of it, as the strutting I would think.
The worse sounding Conde I ever played, (that was an A26 pro model I mean), actually had good mid range, but no bass at all. I really did not like it. But it seemed whoever made it, was going for that important midrange, but whatever went wrong, they over did it so the guitar was really not well balanced. But compared to Conde blancas in general, a lot of flamenco guitars have too much bass and overtones and sustain for my taste. I like unforgiving guitars. I always felt Sanchis guitars to feel most similar to my favorite condes, but the brace pattern is totally different.
Ricardo
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Date Jan. 10 2007 21:01:05
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Anders Eliasson
Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
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RE: Conde kit? (in reply to RobJe)
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quote:
What I mean as a player is, those guitars that are louder and have more sustain harmonics or whatever, you play easy and the guitar sounds great. But if you play REALLY hard, it does not go anywhere different,or can get muddy by overplaying. But the dry un-forgiving guitar, when you play REALLY hard, it gets better and better sounding. You can't over play it.
I totally agree and it leads to the most important word and most difficult aspect in building flamenco guitars.... Compromise
This peghead guitar I mentioned could really be played ROUGH, but it was/is totally unbearable to play sitting at home working with a metronome etc. You have to play it with an enourmous amout of power. The owner, a good amateur never plays it, because he gets tired after 10 minutes.... Is that a good flamenco guitar.... Yes, a very good one for about 1 - 3 % of all players. Its difficult to survive making guitars like that.
On the other hand, you can make a guitar as Ricardo sais with lots of bass and high end harmonics. It will be sweet and nice. Even you dog will like it and you can relax a lot when playing and thus play longer, which is a very important factor for many amateurs comming home from work etc. Is it a good flamenco guitar... No... Its a bit to soft, you never learn to play with that flamenco right hand, which is a part of flamenco. but you can sell it and quite a few of them.
So the compromise...Difficult  I look for a guitar that you can take to juerga and almost compete with the dryest concrete ones and at the same time you can play at home without suffering to much....
With respect of bridges my experience (and others) is that its more the mass or veight that defines response, sustain and volume. Flamenco guitars have smaller and lighter bridges than classicals. The heavyer bridge reacts slower and maintain vibrating longer. Some luthiers like to us the word "Impedance" on these factors. I know what they mean, but it still sounds kind of electrical to me 
As a final word I just wanna say that things are complicated. You may now think that the better the guitarist, the harder and dryer the guitar.... No way. Its such a personal and polyfacetted (can you say that in english) story and it depends a lot on your right hand position. The further back you play the dryer the guitar and the harder you can play it without reaching its limits.
So my advice is to work that right hand, to learn all the differnt sound colors of your guitar and learn where your and your guitars limits are. Many not so good players that think they are very good think they have to play hard and use a lot of right hand movement. I find that the dryest most flamenco sound comes from short, very fast and powerfull right hand movements played relatively close to the bridge. Just take a look at the good ones... Is their right hand all over the place..... No
Un saludo y todo
Anders
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Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
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Date Jan. 11 2007 7:50:06
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Armando
Posts: 302
Joined: May 27 2005
From: Zürich, Switzerland
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RE: Conde kit? (in reply to RobJe)
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quote:
Ricardo. Its the whole that makes a good guitar. You cannot seperate the factors. There are so many different ways to combine. According to theory, making a guitar with less crossgrain control, gives more uncontroled vibration, which in my experience leads to less clarity of sound and more drumlike percussiveness. But there are so many other factors influencing in crossgrain stiffness, the soundboard itself, the thickness of the soundboard, bridge path and the size and placement of the closing struts. The X ray conde has quite big closing struts, whereas the traditional Santos Hernadez di not have any... So choose yourself
What i find difficult to understand as an amateur builder is, that there is no rule without an exception. I mean, you can't say a flamenco top with this and that sound character must be built in this or that way. Sure the top is not the only thing to consider if you build a guitar, but it is said that Torres successfully demonstrated with his guitar made of cardboard how important the top is in comparisson to the rest of the guitar.
So, crossgrain stiffness adds harmonics to the guitar...short braces contribute to a better treble response and struts paralel to the grain produce a drier, more percussive tone...?
So and now the exceptions...
Manuel Reyes uses seven fan struts similar to the Santos Hernandez pattern but with a bridge batch running across the whole width of the lower bout untherneath the bridge.
Manuel Bellido uses a strut in the same position as Reyes uses a batch and no paralel braces (unless the central brace) either.
Francisco Barba uses a seven fan struting close to the Torres bracing for his flamenco guitars.
So....what is it? Is it the bracing or something else? Is it really true that the soundboard bracing makes up the difference? I doubt, allthough i respect Torres very much.
I know... You must get the whole picture and understand how the differnent parts of the guitar interact and couple with each other. I agree on that, and i believe that this understanding can only be gained having built quite a number of guitars and with years of dedication and experience.
Armando
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Date Jan. 11 2007 12:13:11
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