Tuning and related issues

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rombsix

Posts: 7815
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

Tuning and related issues

Hey mates,

I have always had doubts about tuning, so I've decided to ask about to see if I can get some feedback. I have many "methods" of tuning my guitar. Every time I play, I use a different one:

1- Tune it with a tuner (the intellitouch TUNER) and start playing directly - without any further fine tuning.

2- Tuning it with a pitch pipe and playing directly - without any further fine tuning.

3- Tuning the last (bass E) string as a reference note (with either the TUNER or the pipe), then tuning the rest of the strings (5th, 4th, etc., 1st) accordingly / relative to the 6th, 5th, 4th, 3rd, and 2nd strings, by using the "5-5-5-4-5 method" (whereby the 5th fret of the last string should sound like the 5th string, the 5th fret of the 5th string should sound like the 4th string, etc.).

4-Tuning the last (bass E) string as a reference note (with either the TUNER or the pipe), then tuning the rest of the strings (5th, 4th, etc., 1st) accordingly / relative to the 6th, 5th, 4th, and 3rd (without using the 2nd string as a tuning reference) strings, by using the "5-10-10-9-9 method" (whereby the 5th fret of the last string should sound like the 5th string, the 10th fret of the last string should sound like the 4th string, the 10th fret of the 5th string should sound like the 3rd string, etc.).

5- Tuning the last (bass E) string as a reference note (with either the TUNER or the pipe), then tuning the rest of the strings (5th, 4th, etc., 1st) using harmonics, whereby the harmonic on the 5th fret of the last string should sound like the harmonic on the 7th fret of the fifth string, etc.

There are many issues I come across. When I use the TUNER, I go back to fine tune and notice that the strings need a good deal of fine tuning (Keep in mind that I am VERY PICKY about tuning. I make sure that the strings are 100% as well tuned as possible before playing. Usually, to see if a string is in tune with respect to the other, I play a note like the A and the last string, and simultaneously play the 5th string. They should sound like only ONE string got played if they are perfectly in tune. It is due to the phenomenon of beats (in physics) that you can feel as though the A note starts to oscillate if there is a bit of frequency difference between the two played strings. I keep my left thumb on the neck in order to better feel the vibrations in the neck, and if I feel as though the vibrations are going on and off (loud and soft) at a very high rate, that means that the strings are very close to being in tune; whereas if the vibrations are very far apart, then the strings are very un-tuned relative to each other.). The same happens when I use the pipe. Also, I feel as though every time I play, a different tuning method works better than the other. The problem I am encountering the most these days however is the B string. It is always difficult to tune. As though the string is defective or something (even though I use different brands of strings). Moreover, I notice that the G string always tends to go sharp instead of flat, after a good deal of playing (all the other strings get flat when they go out of tune, however, except the G string). Is that normal?

Thus, the main issue is:

1- Which of the above tuning methods is the most reliable?

2- Do you have any other tuning methods that work well?

3- Is it that my guitar sucks or that the strings I am using are bad (and thus tuning gives me a hard time)? I have two guitars - one of them (my better one) is a Jose Ramirez R1 (whose action I have had lowered), and I usually use D'addario strings or Fender strings (or Adamas).

4- What about those B and G strings? Does anyone go through what I go through with these two particular strings? (Is it maybe the way I tie the strings at the headstock that is creating the problems? I use a knot like I've seen it on some website, maybe on the D'addario site).

Thanks for the help, and sorry if this message got too long and wordy.

Ramzi

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 3 2006 17:40:16

Reece

Posts: 21
Joined: Oct. 31 2006

RE: Tuning and related issues (in reply to rombsix)

I use 5th and 7th fret harmonics to tune. I find this the most accurate way and it's quick, as you can have both notes ringing whilst you tune - unlike using the fundamentals where you have to hold a note down. The only downside is that you can't use this method for the B string.

The G string is notoriously hard to get right. This is something to do with the imperfect scaling of a guitar. I'm not 100% sure of the details, but I do know that on every guitar I've ever played the g string sounds the dullest and is the hardest to tune. There are some strings you can buy which attempt to overcome the dullness. I've never had a problem with the B string however.

As for guitars going out of tune, I just accept this as part and parcel of playing flamenco. Nylon strings don't grip as well as steel, and you are giving them a pounding to boot. I have a steel strung acoustic that never, ever goes out of tune. It's crazy. But my flamenco needs tuning constantly. My only advice would be to have the minimum amount of winds on the rollers and change your strings often. I have very acidic sweat (ugh) and so my strings don't stay fresh for long. I always have 2-3 sets in stock. Old, corroded strings do not tune well.

Hope this helps.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 3 2006 19:05:38

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Tuning and related issues (in reply to rombsix) 1 votes

I tune modal and not tempered, this means I tune the guitar to the principal chord I´m going to play ( E or A , F# etc)
This means that you always have to correct a bit when changing from por arriba to por medio etc.
I´ve been told that most flamenco singers dont like tempered tuning, because flamenco singing is highly modal.
Since a guitar is more or less a harmonic instrument, this means that you have to compensate a bit, so I generally tune to chords only consisting of Main, 4th and 5th grade of the scale. You might call these chords open or neutral, because they do not have any 3rd tone to ineterfere (Minor or major)

Complicated, no! This is what players in so called primitive cultures playing socalled primitive music do.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 6 2006 7:39:30

Exitao

Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada

RE: Tuning and related issues (in reply to Anders Eliasson) 1 votes

quote:

I tune modal and not tempered, this means I tune the guitar to the principal chord I´m going to play ( E or A , F# etc)

I don't understand any of this Mr. Eliasson. Modal, tempered, tuning to a chord?

I understand using a tuner for every open, or using a tuner or pitch pipe for one string and then relative tuning for the others.

As I'm still new at all this I'd like to know the 'best' way to tune to assist in learning proper pitch recognition and sounding good later, if ever.

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Callidus et iracundus.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 6 2006 8:10:48

Guest

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 6 2006 8:30:24

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: Tuning and related issues (in reply to rombsix) 1 votes

The guitar is a tempered instrument. It is actually impossible for it to be perfectly in tune for all keys. Fixing the frets in a certain position means you are compromising to get the best possible all round tuning, but it is not perfect.
Consequently, there is no perfect tuning method, but some are better than others.

Any method which tunes the strings progressively (eg Rombsix method 3) can progressively exacerbate errors as you go across the strings. If do not have a tuner but you have a tuning fork, it is better to tune one string then tune the others to that.

Reece's method (sorry Reece!) is guaranteed to put the guitar out of tune as 5th/7th fret harmonics on adjacent strings are NOT the same pitch. The 7th fret harmonic is a Pythagorean 5th. The guitar fret at the 7th fret is an equal tempered 5th. Tuning them the same puts the guitar out of tune.

Concert classical guitarists do what Anders describes - they make small adjustments for the key the piece is in, tuning to the main chords in that key.

I use a tuner to get ballpark, then adjust to chords. If I do not have a tuner handy I usually have a fork in which case I tune all strings to that reference, then adjust for chords.

The 3rd string presents further problems

, especially if you use strings with a thick 3rd, like regular D'Addario. Ideally we would have offset saddles (how come flamenco luthiers don't do this, Anders?) but you should find strings with narrow 3rds behave better.

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Spanish Guitarist in Devon, Cornwall and Somerset

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 6 2006 8:51:54

Exitao

Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada

RE: Tuning and related issues (in reply to rombsix)

Thank you Jon. Now you can be sure that at least one other person loves you, aside from your mother.

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Callidus et iracundus.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 6 2006 9:08:52

Reece

Posts: 21
Joined: Oct. 31 2006

RE: Tuning and related issues (in reply to rombsix)

Well, you learn something every day. My guitar sounds like it's in tune using the harmonic method, but then again I've never compared it to anything. I'll try the chord method - I take it you tune the root to a reference tone, play the chord and then adjust to taste? Or is it a one string at a time thing?

Reference tone trivia: Steve Vai can sing a perfect 440hz A note.

Reference tone trivia 2: the engaged telephone tone in the UK is a G note. So if you ever lose your fork just ring yourself.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 6 2006 15:56:55

JasonM

Posts: 2058
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Tuning and related issues (in reply to rombsix)

I think you want to tune the B string slighlty flat. I believe they do this on a piano as well ( tempured tuning). If you tune it just by frequency it doesn't sound right.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 6 2006 21:34:24

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Tuning and related issues (in reply to rombsix)

quote:

I take it you tune the root to a reference tone, play the chord and then adjust to taste? Or is it a one string at a time thing?

I guess everyone has his/her own way. What is important is that you dont go from 6th to 5th to 4th etc progressively, just like Jon said

I tune the following way in por arriba:

First I tune my A string with a fork.

Then I tune all the strings open by ear, so that the rest of the process is more or less adjustment. Tuning up guitars is a part of my job, so I have to be a little fast and I get very close to final tuning this way in 5 sec.

Then the E- 6th string I tune by holdin the A string on 2nd(B) and 7th(E), finding the best compromise.

Then the 2nd (yes) string by using the 6th string 7th fret harmonic

the 1st using 5th string 7th fret harmonic

The D string I tune by using open E6th string and 4th string 2nd fret.

the 3rd string (the difficult one) I tune by playing this chord: 6th string open 5th and 4th string 2nd fret, 3rd string 4th fret. This is what I call an open chord. It only consists of E and B tone, so no harmonic interference.

Last thing is to play that chord with 1st(E) and 2nd(B) string open and adjust each string......

I dont know if this is understandable

I´m an ex violinist, so tuning is very esencial to me and I hate tempered tuning. It always sound wrong in my ears. Most flamenco singers think the same way
Since flamenco is conected to its root chord, I find this way to be the best. I know that it makes some chords, like C sound a bit out of tune, but I prefer to have the root chord (home sweet home) in tune.

I tune in por abajo somewhat the same way, but now my brain is tired and I need to do something else than sit in front of my computer

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 7 2006 8:53:44

Ricardo

Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Tuning and related issues (in reply to rombsix)

Over the years I have learned to stay away from fine tuning to chords. In fact I try to keep my left hand OFF the fingerboard all together when tuning. You would be surprised how the slightest left hand pressure can affect the precision of tuning. And in the end, you can actually play MORE in tune by the the way you finger certain notes and chords. It takes many years to develop the feel, and hear the difference.

Anyway, ideally you have a chromatic tuner or open string tuner. That is the best. If not, go by one OPEN string you know is good (higher pitch strings are easier to hear if they are off slightly, to me, than bassy strings). Then do the harmonics as Reece suggested. You can also tune to open 4ths if you can hear it. As mentioned, B string is usually a fine hair flat compared to all the rest. I tune usually 5-7 fret harmonics like Reece, 7th fret low E to the open B string (a hair flat as mentioned) and 7th fret 5th to open E. Double check open E's and the B string to E open that it doesn't sound like the B is TOO flat. But I never try to fine tune to chords anymore. You might have it good for some chords and positions for ONE key, but an open string you can't adjust with your fingers like you can fretted notes. Even very LOW action guitars. But this is more noticeable on high action guitars of course.

I always tune AFTER the capo goes on too.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 9 2006 4:56:27

JasonM

Posts: 2058
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Tuning and related issues (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

And in the end, you can actually play MORE in tune by the the way you finger certain notes and chords. It takes many years to develop the feel, and hear the difference.

I know of an acoustic guitarist that frets notes almost right on top of the fret.
I have never seen anyone play that close to the fret. It reaaly makes a noticable difference (when he did it) in terms of the note being at proper pitch and keeping the guitar in tune.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 9 2006 17:05:18

AndrewE

Posts: 56
Joined: Oct. 6 2004

RE: Tuning and related issues (in reply to rombsix)

I've been using the method in the link below. It's a tempered tuning method and the article discusses what this means and how to do it. I've been using this method for several years and think it is very good. It effectively averages out the tuning intervals the same as you would by tuning against a few chords.

The biggest problem I have with tuning is when strings get old, all method of tuning become troublesome.

Which strings do people think give the best treble response? Maybe it's guitar related? I've used Luthier and didn't think much of them. The best for so far has been Savarez Alliance blue.

Here's the link, give it a try;

http://www.stagepass.com/tuning.html

Andrew

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2006 23:13:12

Ricardo

Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Tuning and related issues (in reply to AndrewE)

quote:

Here's the link, give it a try;

http://www.stagepass.com/tuning.html

The problem I have with this is the tuning to fretted notes. How can you be sure you are not applying too much or to little pressure to the fretted note and tuning the wrong way? Only a machine could apply perfect pressure each time. In my experience, tuning to that 3fret 2nd string D is really misleading and messes up your other chords. The open B will be too low if your D note is perfect. True the B should be lower than perfect 5th to E, but not so low that that D note is perfect. Same with G string. The best is when you fingers are not on the finger board and you understand your open strings are PERFECT. Like with a tuner that has a green light. Learn how to hear open strings should sound relative to each other (with a tuner first, and harmonics help to double check) then you will always be in tune the best you can with that guitar.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 12 2006 19:47:20