Playing music for a living or or occasionally for money

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Paleto

Posts: 243
Joined: Jul. 29 2003
From: San Diego, CA

Playing music for a living or or occ...

How many people here either;

A) play music for a living;

or

B) make some money by playing publicly or for private events;

or

C) Would like to make some money playing?

I started the discussion to generate some sharing of experience by those do play out. If you were able to start all over again, would you choose music? How well do communities support flamenco artists, or even just guitarists? What I am after is what the difficulties are financially, personally, or whatever you think is relevant. Also, what rewards have you reaped by performing? Seriously.... By leaving a company or business or research or whatever, did you gain freedom? Tough to pay bills? Tough competition? What is it like to make a living as a musician?

It looks very, very difficult to me, but somehow I can't get rid of the dream.....

Please comment as you see fit.

Anthony

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2003 0:43:37

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Playing music for a living or or... (in reply to Paleto)

Anthony,
I make some money playing out. The way I see it, there are touring musicians and stay-in-one-place musicians. In the first category are almost all of the famous and well-to-do musicians, in the latter are probably the vast majority of those who have comfortable incomes. Music is difficult because it is not really rewarded by society in the same way that ordinary jobs such as bus drivers, lawyers, or engineers are. You are paid for entertaining people and are not paid for the countless hours spent by yourself working on your craft. Contrast the desk jockey who goes home and stares at the TV to forget about his job! I go home so that I can work on mine.

I don't know... in some ways it's a gloomy profession, playing often in the background, usually at night, entering in the back, wearing black. A lot of musicians get off late and go to bars or late-night Denny's for the little socializing they do. Some are bitter because by the time they are middle aged they're a hell of a lot better players than the guys on the radio! But no one will ever know it. The guys at the resorts scare me... kind of grizzled and always smiling but it's a fake kind of thing. At least it seems that way to me, because I can't imagien what they should be smiling about.

On the bright side, some people do break through. I heard Ottmar Liebert was playing at resorts, and now he sells a lot of CDs. Esteban was discovered at the Hyatt in Scottsdale, where my friend Monti plays! If those guys can make it, who knows...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2003 5:17:33

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Playing music for a living or or... (in reply to Paleto)

Hi Paleto

I give guitar lessons, not enough to live from, but just for the sidemoney.

I play a long time flamenco guitar, about 15 years, but it was impossible for me to perform.
I got too nervous, and my hands start shaking playing before an audiance.
for about six years, I go to spain on vacantion, and I performed there a littlebit, and perhaps because I get older, or from the perfomances in spain, my nervousity is drifting away.
I finally can play now before people, so I am studying hard now to perform in the future too a littlebit. I have the feeling it is possible now, so I go for it.
greetings, Peter

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2003 10:04:52

Billyboy

Posts: 389
Joined: Aug. 18 2003

RE: Playing music for a living or or... (in reply to gerundino63)

Personally I find very it unfortunate that I developed a love of music, started with the Beatles, lost intrest in regular school work etc. Making money from music is realistically not a good career idea, unless you come from the right background, i.e. get plenty of enchourgement from your parents, financial and otherwise, come from the right background, very few sucsesfull musicians come from a working class background. The Beatles were all middle class. PDL came from Spains "Jackson family" of musicians, I would certainly discourage my siblings against a career in Flamenco.
Dave

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2003 10:41:04

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Playing music for a living or or... (in reply to Billyboy)

Dave,
I would agree that making a living out of any of the Arts is difficult and precarious.
We only see the very few at the top who have "made it".
I think folk who go into Music or Acting or Writing are driven into it by a burning desire and not as a calm, well thought out career option.
I doubt "class" has very much to do with it however.
Lot's of my working class schoolmates went on to University and Art School and they came from very humble backgrounds.
George Harrison was an apprentice Electrician and Ringo worked as a Barman I believe,
and Paul was in first year at Teacher Training college.
Hardly "middle class".
As for PdL, as far as I know, his backgound was poor but his Father was a wily old man who had a good business sense when he spotted that his sons were talented and worked hard to get the best deals for them.
But I do know what you are getting at.
I doubt if Ian Davies would have got so far without the support and encouragment of his parents.
Although Ian realized his dream of working as a professional Flamenco player in Spain, it has to be noted that he did not make any impact on the Flamenco scene in general, and even Peter admits he had not even heard of him until his untimely death.
However this does not always work.
When I was a schoolkid, one of the guys in my class played guitar in a pop band run by his cousin's mother who was pretty wealthy.
She kitted the whole group out with good instruments and amps and spent a lot of money and time marketing and hyping them hoping they would be the next "Bay City Rollers".
They had limited success and once played on the "The Kinks" UK tour.
But it all came to nothing in the end.

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2003 11:25:11

el ted

Posts: 466
Joined: Nov. 13 2003

RE: Playing music for a living or or... (in reply to Paleto)

Interesting debate this one!
All the proffesional musicians I know are very DRIVEN characters who just would never function in a "proper" job. The idea of trying to make money from flamenco doesn't appeal to me because-
a) You will spend most of your days in poverty.
b) I would not want to turn a hobby into a job. I think I would weary of having to play when required, rather than when I wanted to.
The other benefit of a career is that peaceful easy feeling of being able to hurl lots of money at Luthiers for their latest creation!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2003 13:12:27

Paleto

Posts: 243
Joined: Jul. 29 2003
From: San Diego, CA

RE: Playing music for a living or or... (in reply to el ted)

What prompted the original post is that I am working through a book called The Pathfinder, by Nicholas Lore. It's a career book, but may be one of the better ones out there.

I work in an excellent, world famous laboratory (as a research assistant), doing molecular biology, now a little histology too, and could get involved in more things if I wanted to. But I am not motivated to get more involved because I do not feel passionate enough to learn the mountains of information to do more in this field. I have a great boss, we have a good Human resources department, I have good benefits, I work in the most desirable part of San Diego, directly facing the beautiful ocean, with a patio to eat lunch and watch hang-gliders and enjoy the sun and sky. But I feel bored with this life.

I do have a burning desire to discover music and it's always been there. I have tried to make decisions which would allow me a more stable lifestyle, but somehow the feeling that I will never be truly happy and truly successful at things other than music does not fade away.

I have had some ideas about how I can generate some work in the near future (making contact with some catering companies, or productions companies, universities, etc where I already have contacts who have said "Let me know when you're ready"). But, I also must consider long term opportunities, things like teaching, or anything else you guys can think of.

I am now 32, still can't afford to buy a home here and think, if I can't do it with a "normal" job, then I might as well try what I really want. Somehow, one would like to think that with the motivatiion and drive, that one could be successful at most anything they felt that strongly about. Those who have attempted it surely have some valuable experience to share.

As I work through the book, I am trying to keep an open mind that another career may be best, we'll see what fits in a few months.

In the mean time, researching out possible careers is one of the tasks I face and I sincerely hope others who have not responded will take a moment to think deeply about this thread, and share their experience.

Thanks a lot to those who have already posted responses, I really appreciate any (positive or negative) thoughts. If ideas come to you after posting, by all means, please post again.

This is a massive topic, with many, many facets, so please keep thinking about this.

Again, thank you very much for the thoughts so far.

Anthony

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2003 16:30:14

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Playing music for a living or or... (in reply to Paleto)

Anthony,
there's a fellow named Scott Taber who lives in San Diego that plays out a big,maybe you should hook up with him. I'm not sure what he's into right now... If you see him, tell him Mike from Phoenix, who plays with Arturo, said to say hi.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2003 16:47:35

Paleto

Posts: 243
Joined: Jul. 29 2003
From: San Diego, CA

RE: Playing music for a living or or... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

I'll see if I can find him.

Plays some flamenco?

-A

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2003 16:55:21

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Playing music for a living or or... (in reply to Paleto)

Hi Anthony

Trying to make a living besides a regular job is very difficult.
I have tried a few things, and the biggest problem with this kind of work, that it cost to much time to gain some money.
Or you need too much money for the time that you "work"

for instance, you need 2000 dollar a month.
You can make two paintings in a month, so you have to sell them within a month for 1000 dollar. The painting is now too expensive to sell both in a month.

Or you have 4 performances in a month for an hour so, you must have 250 dollar for a performance. that is too expensifve, perhaps not for one or two times, but you need it every month again, so, 48 performances minimum a year!

Or you take a year to write a book, you have to sell it for 24000 dollar then!

That is why I think it is very difficult. But if you try it, try it besides your work,
and think, when it happens, it happens.

Peter.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2003 17:21:01

Paleto

Posts: 243
Joined: Jul. 29 2003
From: San Diego, CA

RE: Playing music for a living or or... (in reply to gerundino63)

Peter,

You are right here. My thought is that you have to explain to the client that you must spend many hours practicing to sound like that.

At least here, there are quite a few wealthy people who do throw parties and they can fork over the money.

The Universities also have money for this kind of thing.

If you live in a smaller city or town, that may not work..

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2003 18:26:52

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Playing music for a living or or... (in reply to Paleto)

Yes, you are right about that, but it is difficult to stay working.
It goes for a few times, but keep it running, it is difficult.
I make sculptures for instand, I have sometimes expositions, sell something, but not enough. because I am working for more than 100 hours on a sculpture,I have to ask a lot of money for it to make a living.
Giving guitarlessons is much easyer earning money.

Performing is difficult too I think, you need a lot of performances.

But, I do not want to be too negative, I will try it too.
guitarlessons for a little steady income, and performances for the rest.
Peter.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2003 19:21:00

Escribano

Posts: 6417
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Playing music for a living or or... (in reply to Paleto)

quote:

But, I also must consider long term opportunities, things like teaching, or anything else you guys can think of.

If it helps any, careers seem to have a way of finding you. Doing what you want in life, takes a lot more effort and sacrifice. I've been tossing around these kind of thoughts for years. Good luck on your quest.

Meantime, I am also looking for a better lifestyle - in Andalucia preferably. San Diego was in the frame once, when I dated a lovely (rich) girl from EL Cajon, She would have supported me in almost any venture, but my ageing parents put the brakes on that one and she had young kids and couldn't come to Europe. Otherwise, I would probably be living somewhere near La Jolla, making my guitars now

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2003 19:37:27

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Playing music for a living or or... (in reply to Paleto)

Anthony,
You already have a pretty exciting job in molecular biology.
Science is one of the most exciting careers around.
If you put your heart, mind and effort into it, you could be the first person to come up with a cure for things like AIDS!
Music is a temptress, evoking either the bright lights or the simple "gypsy" life.
Neither of them are true. Only in your imagination.
Keep your music as a hobby and relaxation.
It's a pretty frantic World we live in now and the two options are to cope or escape.

As John Lennon said in 1966
"You need 4 O Levels to shovel **** these days"

Actually the ante has gone up now.

In the UK here, you need a decent University Degree to get a job in Telemarketing (call centres), or as a salesman in PCs Direct or Carphone Warehouse.

Quite honestly, I'd prefer to shovel ****.
At least it's honest and get's you out in the open air.

LOL!

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2003 19:56:49

Paleto

Posts: 243
Joined: Jul. 29 2003
From: San Diego, CA

RE: Playing music for a living or or... (in reply to Ron.M)

For whatever it's worth, I am not interested in the gypsy life, although if I choose to do music, it may be my life like it or not :-). My attraction is more fundamentally about music itself, a process of discovery, trying to find novel or interesting things and bringin them to an audience, if I can generate one.

I have to honestly answer the question for myself - Do really have the creativity to do it? Right now, I really don't know the answer to that. I feel the creativity below the surface when I practice, but what does that mean? Not sure just yet..

I know I have it pretty good here at work, and I see that. But, I really want more time to progress musically. Perhaps things will evolve into me having more time over the next couple years. Time will tell.

There are many, many scientists, and I know I am not one. I just work with them. Seeing that makes working in that environment more difficult. Because I am aware that I have always been more a creative type, than an analytical type, this also affects my judgement. Science is a really good career, a great atmosphere etc. But I have never been strong in the sciences, I always avoided taking science classes. It's just an interest for me, not a fundamental current in my personality - know what I mean?

Anthony

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2003 20:22:58

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Playing music for a living or or... (in reply to Paleto)

Hi Anthony

Your post wake me a little up, I recognice a lot in it.
I think, that if you can study 10 hours a week, a year long and still like it, you must have talent, and also have the creativity.
If not, you allready long before smash your guitar against the wall!

greetings again, Peter.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2003 20:43:39

Paleto

Posts: 243
Joined: Jul. 29 2003
From: San Diego, CA

RE: Playing music for a living or or... (in reply to gerundino63)

I feel like I could play 12 hours a day - no problem and no kidding.

How long would that last? Probable a few years. There is so much to learn and discover.

I'd love to take a composition class, as well as Harmony and counterpoint.

Once my little one is a little bigger, I probably will.

Anthony

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2003 20:48:04

Paleto

Posts: 243
Joined: Jul. 29 2003
From: San Diego, CA

RE: Playing music for a living or or... (in reply to gerundino63)

By the way Peter - did you get that transcription from Faucher?

Anthony

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2003 20:48:37

Billyboy

Posts: 389
Joined: Aug. 18 2003

RE: Playing music for a living or or... (in reply to Paleto)

I think the Beatles were middle class, in a Liverpool circa 1950's perspective, not middle class by southern standards, they went to arts college which never happened with the working class of that era, they would leave school at fifteen, and straight tut mill LOL, so this class thing is relative to that era, and as is the case now, more to do with life style and districts one lives in, rather than monetery wealth.
Cheers
Dave

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2003 20:53:46

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Playing music for a living or or... (in reply to Paleto)

Yes, I got it!

I am very happy with it!

What would we be without this forum!

Peter.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2003 21:45:07

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Playing music for a living or or... (in reply to Billyboy)

Dave,
I think that the "true" middle class parents are those with a good education and broad minded attitude to life as well as good financial resources.
Typical professions are University Professors, Bankers, Cabinet Ministers etc.
They generally acknowledge "gap years" and will finance any seemingly worthwhile project their offspring comes up with.
It's lucky to be born into that kind of family as working class parents usually worry about any deviation from the straight and narrow "education and good job" principle.
Unfortunately sitting in your bedroom practising Flamenco guitar does not fall within that catagory! LOL!

If anything, what I observe is that rather than the music industry, the broadcasting industry seems to attract the Public School/ Oxbridge/Cambridge types.

I think that's definitely where the "Old Boy" network still survives strongly.
Im sure if you had to meet a BBC Producer with an idea, the first question would be
"Who did you row for?"

LOL!

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2003 21:48:20

Billyboy

Posts: 389
Joined: Aug. 18 2003

RE: Playing music for a living or or... (in reply to Ron.M)

Yeh, I aree with that Ron, allthough this class thing varies from North England to South, the examples you gave would be classified as Southern middle class, the northern middle class, would be regarded as lower class in the south, so its relative. All this talk of class may be perplexing for the Yanks amoung us, the class system in the US is more defined on racial grounds ,but the class system in the UK is as strong as ever. The traditional northern working class as existed right up to the 70's doesn't exist anymore, they have moved to the Semi-detached middle class suberbs, and have been replaced by the Underclass, which are the Heroin addicts and that ilk, and the perminent unemployed, that populate the Council estates in places like Newcastle, Manchester, in fact the whole of the North of England, I could go on and on, e.g. upper middle class, lower middle, upper working etc, etc, they all exist, and I could give many examples.
Cheers
Dave

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2003 23:23:31

Escribano

Posts: 6417
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Playing music for a living or or... (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

"Who did you row for?"

Stroke for Reading All Schools, Henley Regatta c. 1973 - I caught a crab and was practically thrown from the boat

"Damn council estate (Americans read projects) types lowering the tone!" I scored later that night with a posh bird though, behind a marquee

Not convinced that the middle classes are broad-minded, the "Telegraph" is the most widely read broadsheet in the UK, the "Mail" is the middle-class bible. Yikes!

_____________________________

Foro Flamenco founder and Admin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 12 2003 17:50:38

Paleto

Posts: 243
Joined: Jul. 29 2003
From: San Diego, CA

RE: Playing music for a living or or... (in reply to Escribano)

Anyone have some less obvious things that should be considered?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 12 2003 18:02:21

Escribano

Posts: 6417
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Playing music for a living or or... (in reply to Billyboy)

quote:

the class system in the US is more defined on racial grounds

Again, I am not convinced. In the US, I would maintain the class system is based on achievement e.g. social, educational and professional, rather than race. Personal wealth is in sync with this, though ill-gotten or entrenpreneurial wealth is not.

My parents were working class, council estate, left school at 14, both only children from broken homes. They did not have a clue about education, so as long as I worked and brought home the money, I could sit in my bedroom and practice Santana riffs as much as I wanted (and I did, though I wish it had been flamenco).

It appears to me that most UK bands, apart from Genesis, Floyd and the Stones (as notable exceptions) formed in their home towns to escape drudgery (and the weather) and left asap, to escape drudgery but not the weather.

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Foro Flamenco founder and Admin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 12 2003 18:21:37

Escribano

Posts: 6417
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Playing music for a living or or... (in reply to Paleto)

Do you mean less obvious than rowing in Henley Regatta?

Have you thought about a sabbatical in Andalucia for a few months or years, learning about and playing flamenco (we all have thought about that) - what harm could it do?

_____________________________

Foro Flamenco founder and Admin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 12 2003 18:34:14

Paleto

Posts: 243
Joined: Jul. 29 2003
From: San Diego, CA

RE: Playing music for a living or or... (in reply to Escribano)

I have thought about it here and there.

I probably will do it, I just can't right now. 9 month old kid. When he's 2 or 3 I amy be able to think abou tit. Lso, the wife wants to buy a house, so that complicates it too.

It's probably a good idea to go ahead and buy a house and do the Andalucía thing when the opportunity either presents itself or I make it happen. Again, maybe in a couple years.

I spent 10 months in Spain once and 4 another time, although not in Andalucía. My wife is interested in doing such a thing, but wants to get things settled here first by purchasing a house.

I think I can make the Andalucía thing happen, its just a matter of time.

Anthony

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 12 2003 19:17:39

Billyboy

Posts: 389
Joined: Aug. 18 2003

RE: Playing music for a living or or... (in reply to Paleto)

Simon,
I thought you were American, you sound more middle class than me

Genesis is one of my fav bands, but the fact they were super upper class grates a bit with me. "I scored later that night with a posh bird though, behind a marquee" Yeh upper class girls are more horny than the Council estate dwellers

Dave

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 12 2003 19:32:10

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Playing music for a living or or... (in reply to Paleto)

quote:

Anyone have some less obvious things that should be considered?

Hmm, you could consider the VSO (Voluntery Services Overseas), MSF (Medicines Sans Frontiers) or the Red Cross.
They all offer a big lifestyle change from that you are used to or bored with.
Having lunch on a lovely day, watching the waves roll in from the Pacific does get a bit old after a while.
Other possibilities are picking up live dispersed bomblets from populated areas in Iraq.
Or offering the fruits of your education to others less priveleged in a variety of Non Governmental Organisations in the Third World.
There are lot's of things to do if you are bored with your current situation.

I have a few friends who have spent a couple of years doing that sort of stuff and found it inspiring and worthwhile.

Don't pay much though, apart from your food and lodging.
You can always take your guitar.
It's a lot of fun provided you don't get shot I'm told.

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 12 2003 20:22:21

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: Playing music for a living or or... (in reply to Paleto)

Paleto,
I'm an Architect and have a small practice in Glasgow (Scotland). I've got some good clients and good work but ocassionally when a bad client comes along and we get hammered, my mood changes and I think ' what the hell am I doing here' It's hard work and I can get sued etc... jeez! there's got to be somethin better I can do?
So far I've not managed to think just what it could be.
I've been learning Flamenco guitar now for over 30 years, on and off with breaks for university etc and at one time I bought a grand piano (still got it) and I decided to learn to play it. So I went for lessons (4 years) but I just couldn't learn to read notation to any reasonable degree and it all fell away when my first son was born, the piano was too loud and a bairn sleeps a lot!
So I came back to flamenco guitar, but that time I decided to do two things, first: buy a decent instrument and second: go to Spain and take some lessons.
So I got a guitar and went to Paco Pena in Cordoba. That was 1990.
Since then, I've got a small (amature/semi pro.) group, three of us, dance, cajon/palmas and guitar. We call ourselves 'Deseo' which I am told means 'I wish'.
We do as many gigs as we can and that works out at about 6-10 a year.
I'ts fantastic.
I might never break away from Architecture, but doing these gigs and getting together for our practice every week, really helps. We do it for fun, we know our limitations but are always working on new material and trying to make our shows as authentic as we can.
So my friend, try something similar and see if it makes your path that wee bit straighter.
Cheers
Jim.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 14 2003 11:06:15