Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
|
|
|
RE: Playing music for a living or or occasionally for money
|
You are logged in as Guest
|
|
Users viewing this topic: none
|
|
Login  | |
|
   
Thomas Whiteley
Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area
|
 RE: Playing music for a living or or... (in reply to Paleto)
|
|
|
Anthony;
I can assure you that the most rewarding thing in life is having a good marriage and raising children to be good members of society. Being an artist is a self centered and introverted activity that only one person, the artist, can truly enjoy. That enjoyment may actually be suffering, as few artists became rich and famous.
I began piano when I was six, and made my debut with Richard Stoltzman when we were both nine. Richard is an outstanding Clarinetist and well known throughout the world. I went into electronics engineering and now programming, just to pay the bills.
Before I married I played flamenco professionally for a number of Spanish dancers. Ciro and Rosa Montoya were amongst them. I made a lot of money in a short time and then no money while waiting for the next event. That is not a good formula for success in my book.
I play many musical instruments and truly enjoy music. Chuck Keyser said he envied me as I have a great wife, son and daughter. By Chuck’s thinking on the subject raising a family is more important than flamenco guitar.
I have a Steinway piano and still play, and occasionally teach. I taught our son and daughter and our son was classified as a concert pianist when he was 15. He is now a grammar school teacher, having just completed college and also teaches piano. He still plays piano and is learning many guitar styles including flamenco.
I have been fortunate to have had good teachers and acquaintances in music. When I played classical guitar I had Rey de la Torre and Sagovia as teachers. In flamenco I knew Sabicas and Carlos Montoya, who both gave me outstanding advice. Many others have aided me in my music adventure, including my neighbor down the street, Mariano Cordoba, who played guitar for Antonio and the Spanish Ballet.
One person I met said that for me music should be an advocation. Separate vocation from advocation. You use music as a means of expression and stress relief. You have a vocation to pay the bills and exist.
I still play flamenco and have played for Jose Galvan and his family not too long ago. I also play for the many family gatherings we have here and in Los Angeles, as well as Juergas for the San Jose Flamenco Society. I think I have an advantage in that my wife’s family is from Zaragoza, Spain, trained in flamenco cante y baile, and is a great source of encouragement to me. In two weeks we will celebrate our 38-wedding anniversary.
My advice is to give your family top priority and fit your music in as best as possible. Never let music or anything else get between you and your family.
Whatever you do in life - enjoy the ride! 
_____________________________
Tom
http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/flamenco.html
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 14 2003 15:53:37
 |
|
Paleto
Posts: 243
Joined: Jul. 29 2003
From: San Diego, CA
|
|
RE: Playing music for a living or or... (in reply to Thomas Whiteley)
|
|
|
Tom,
I was hoping you'd write in. I was also hoping you'd take it as seriously as you did too. It would have bene nice to of met you when you were here in San Diego, maybe next time.
I recognize the concern for raising a family. On the other hand you faced the same dilemmas of "this thing is inside me and needs some expression" but I don't know what you did to get yourself beyond it and to dedicate yourself to a stable career.
I have also recognized the selfish aspect of wanting to express the creativity I have for music, but it doesn't change the strong desire that's there to go with it.
My wife is a Ph.D. and is currently finishing a masters in Education and will continue to be able to help support us. She is aware of my strong desire to pursue music but obviously has her reservations.
In any event, your words are appreciated deeply - thanks for taking the time to share some thoughts.
I have been wanting to make music a side career, but haven't been able to make the time to develop the repertoire nor all the accompaniment skills to even begin trying to perform more seriously, even as just an avocation.
I have had the opportunity to play for a dance class and for the recitals, but that stopped nearly a year ago when my son was born. Perhaps when the dust settles and I return to the classes, I'll feel that the artistic enterprise is being fulfilled enough to leave it at that. But I am still not convinced I shouldn't give it a shot, while perhaps maintaining a thouroughly researched, stable and realistic plan B.
In any case, I'd like to urge everyone to continue thinking about what's been posted on this thread as well as tangential concepts, like how well do communities support the arts? (if poorly, why?) what is there that we can do to promote flamenco artistry? or whatever others deem related.
Anthony
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 14 2003 17:37:36
|
|
Kate
Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía
|
|
RE: Playing music for a living or or... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
|
|
|
"I think if you want to help flamenco, you have to bring it the top-notch flamencos, specifically the guitarists. People like Paco and Vicente and Tomatito have the ability to reach out even to Americans, because of their virtuosity and melodic senses. Flamenco singing and dancing just can't do it to the same degree,... "
Hola Miguel,
Hmmmm I disagree, it is not only the likes of PdL, Tomatito, VA, ie virtuoso guitarists, that can move Americans/foreigners. Our experience over in Detroit, Chicago, Indiana, Wisconsin tells me different. Taller de Compás consists of two singers, 3 percussionists and a dancer and the crowds went crazy, this was real flamenco brought from the dirty streets of Almanjáyar, rough ,raw and exciting, dangerous and wild, as opposed to practised and rehearsed and studied. Carmen received standing ovations, ending the performances by singing off mike al palo seco. We sold around 400 CDs and Carmen signed nearly every one. After the show people were queueing up to take their photo with her. There are no guitars in the group and no-one seemed to mind ( sorry guys :) and people were genuinely moved by the cante and compás. It was an incredible experience for all of us, as some people here on the forum who were there will attest ( are you there Scott ?)
kate
_____________________________
Emilio Maya Temple
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000CA6OBC
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/emiliomaya
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 14 2003 20:06:21
|
|
Paleto
Posts: 243
Joined: Jul. 29 2003
From: San Diego, CA
|
|
RE: Playing music for a living or or... (in reply to Kate)
|
|
|
Each set of artists, virtuosos or however Kate prefers to classify Taller, would appeal to different audiences, with some spillover.
I don't care for the psuedo-flamenco of Gipsy Kings, De madera, or others like them, but I also understand the point them being the first contact with a flamenco-like music for some people. The problem with it is that a lot of people think that's flamenco and, well, we all know it's not.
I think some people (like me) are impressed with Tomatito, VA, Nuñez or others, probably mainly guitarists themselves. But there are plenty of others known and not known, who impress audiences with simpler, or less polished, down home style flamenco. How well it is appreciated depends upon the tastes of each individual in an audience - I believe.
In reply to Kate "no-one seemed to mind" [that there was no guitarist], I doubt that actually, they just didn't bother to make an issue of it or none of those who cared said anything, agree? There are plenty of people who aren't moved by guitar, I have met freaks like them :-)
In any case, thanks for the thoughts.
Anthony
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 14 2003 20:32:20
|
|
Kate
Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía
|
 RE: Playing music for a living or or... (in reply to Paleto)
|
|
|
Hi Anthony,
I would classify Taller de Compás as flamenco artists the same as I would Tomatito, VA etc. I was simply saying that you don't have to have a guitar for newcomers to the art to appreciate flamenco. When we made the 'Cale calé' album absolutely everyone said you cant have a flamenco album without guitar but we did it anyway and proved them wrong ( though we sneaked on Emilio Maya)
Agreed that the people in the audience who did not like it are not likely to come up and tell us, but I swear whole audiences were on their feet and they were doing up to four encores before they were allowed to leave the stage. These youngsters, aged 14 to 20, are not well known, with no powerful publicity machine behind them. For many in the audience it was their first flamenco experience and I think the Taller proved that the combination of young people, cante, cajón and jaleo is a great intro to this art. And, sorry to sound pedantic, this is not simply my thoughts but a real life experience of taking flamenco to a foreign country.
Perhaps saying this on a forum made up of flamenco guitarists will not make me popular  but I was disagreeing with Michael's statement "I think if you want to help flamenco, you have to bring it the top-notch flamencos, specifically the guitarists."
I overheard two Spanish men after one show discussing the concert saying "This has changed my concept of flamenco" I don't know if it is relevant but they were also guitarists as were many of the audience at the Old Town School of Folk Music in Chicago.
Now I must go got several guitarists knocking on the door
Kate 
_____________________________
Emilio Maya Temple
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000CA6OBC
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/emiliomaya
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 14 2003 22:00:42
|
|
Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
|
|
RE: Playing music for a living or or... (in reply to Thomas Whiteley)
|
|
|
Kate,
your experiences are certainly contrary to my, hypothesis I guess it was. Have you heard of the percussion troupes that have had quite a bit of success in the States? I can't remember what they are called, but they feature clever choreography with lots of percussion, using objects such as brooms, etc. Also, Taiko drummers, those weird Japanese guys who wear loincloths and pound on giant drums, have come to Phoenix several times and done quite well. You know, guitars are one thing but once the bongo starts clacking, people start tapping their feet--they can't help themselves. Maybe it's not guitar we need, but percussion, to get people into it. When I think of what people like about flamenco guitar, I think of the virtuosity, the aggressiveness, and the melodies. But that's certainly not as universal as percussion. On the other hand, people have a hard time tapping their feet to bulerias, don't you think?
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 14 2003 22:55:02
|
|
Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
|
|
RE: Playing music for a living or or... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
|
|
|
Mike,
It used to bug me a lot that guitarists would come third in the pecking order in Flamenco. Then it started to dawn on me that Flamencos don't need guitar to have a good time.
Like a lot of other "ethnic" music, the rhythm and expression through voice or dance came first, with homemade or improvised percussion instruments used to add to the general party.
In N. European/Western culture, we are used to the voice being overlaid upon a rich musical texture, and dancing is something that we do in Dancehalls or Discos to completed pieces of music (usually played at 160dB!)
Folk like us are introduced to Flamenco usually through playing guitar, be it Folk/Classical etc so the guitar becomes the focal point and the rest of the Art seems to surround it.... well, for a long time that certainly was my attitude.
I really don't believe this is the case in Spain, where you get the feeling that say, someone like Moraito sees himself as a Flamenco first and a guitarist second.
I'm sure if he turned up at a juerga and there was no guitar, then, so what... they would all have a great time anyway!
Phil has said that it's unusual to have a solo guitar recital where he lives as folk, even though they enjoy a display of virtuosity from time to time, find there is not enough "meat" in it to keep them entertained for an evening.
You are definitely right in saying that the guitar, especially virtuoso guitar as played by the big names, is the crowd puller outside of Spain and although this may be fine for audiences, I think focussing exclusively on the guitar as a serious student is unhelpful in becoming a good Flamenco Guitarist.
Just my thoughts.
cheers
Ron
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 15 2003 8:48:13
|
|
Jon Boyes
Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
|
|
RE: Playing music for a living or or... (in reply to Paleto)
|
|
|
quote:
How many people here either;
A) play music for a living;
or
B) make some money by playing publicly or for private events;
or
C) Would like to make some money playing?
I started the discussion to generate some sharing of experience by those do play out. <snip>
Hi Paleto.
Sorry to come in so late on this, I have limited access at the moment.
Yes, I make part of my living playing music - in a very good month its about a third of my income, but its usually around a fifth or a quarter. You can visit my website here to get an idea of how often I play, where, what music etc: www.jonboyes.co.uk
I also play private functions, and these are not listed in my gig section.
I'll try and answer some of your points by relating my own experience.
Yes its tough, but if you want something badly enough you will drive your life in that direction, regardless of your circumstances. It is a question of your life priorities - two years ago I was earning no money from music, now as I said its an important part of my income. I started getting live solo experience by busking and doing 'open mic' slots, and then began the hard process of finding gigs. As the money start to come in, I invested in better gear and started to cut down on the day job. My plan is to reduce the day job further, so I can invest more time in my music as there is so much I want to do. Stopping the day job completely is probably unrealistic unless the Gipsy Kings get back in the UK charts and there is a sudden upsurge of interest in Spanish guitar music in this country 
Opportunities for flamenco guitarists? Forget it in this country (UK). You may pick up the occasional gig, may get really lucky and find a dance company to work with, but unless you are world class you will be playing to a local audience as Mike says. If you want to work as a guitarist, you have to be very flexible about what you play, and that means playing tunes people can recognise. If I play a Solea at one of my restaurant gigs, I'll get some polite clapping if I'm lucky, whereas there've been times when I've played 'Romanza' and practically got a standing ovation. 
Competition? Not much, thankfully. There are three other gigging guitarists in my city (population 250k) playing similar-ish material to me, and at the moment I am getting the most gigs (at least, public ones, I don't know about their private ones). It is all down to marketing, creating a niche and developing your market as I have already said - this is actually more important than your skills as a guitarist, although obviously you need to be of a certain standard. I advertise, have a website, I'm listed with agencies, I'm in the phone book under musicians, I network like mad, etc., etc. I now probably spend more of my time on marketing myself than I do actually practising the guitar - that is the reality if you want to make a sustainable living out of this. 
For me, music, and guitar playing in particular, is far too important to be wasted on something as trivial as a hobby. That does NOT mean I think that hobbies are trivial, or that its trivial for other people to be doing this, I am talking about my own *personal* thing.
Rewards? Ok, this is the thing that's hardest to quantify but let me tell you this. There's is nothing like the feeling you get when a room full of people start applauding you, or people get up and start dancing to your music, or you get an email from someone saying they caught your gig and though it was great, or someone asks you when you plan to release a CD... when these things happen, and you really enjoy playing, AND get paid at the end of the evening, you'll have the biggest smile around. 
I still have to pinch myself sometimes..
Jon
_____________________________
Spanish Guitarist in Devon, Cornwall and Somerset
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 15 2003 10:49:07
|
|
Paleto
Posts: 243
Joined: Jul. 29 2003
From: San Diego, CA
|
|
RE: Playing music for a living or or... (in reply to Jon Boyes)
|
|
|
Jon,
Thanks for the thoughts.
"Yes its tough, but if you want something badly enough you will drive your
life in that direction, regardless of your circumstances."
This is something I have been thinking about too. Am I willing to work hard to
make it happen? Yes. How hard, only doing it will tell me how hard I'll have
to try. I need to be asking myself how much sacrifice I'd be willing to endure.
"I started getting live solo experience by busking and doing 'open mic'
slots, and then began the hard process of finding gigs. As the money start
to come in, I invested in better gear and started to cut down on the day
job. My plan is to reduce the day job further, so I can invest more time in
my music as there is so much I want to do."
This is very similar to what I have been forseeing for myself if I try it.
"Opportunities for flamenco guitarists? Forget it in this country (UK). You
may pick up the occasional gig, may get really lucky and find a dance
company to work with, but unless you are world class you will be playing to
a local audience as Mike says. If you want to work as a guitarist, you have
to be very flexible about what you play, and that means playing tunes people
can recognise. If I play a Solea at one of my restaurant gigs, I'll get some
polite clapping if I'm lucky, whereas there've been times when I've played
'Romanza' and practically got a standing ovation."
I live in large city, probably more than 3 perhaps even 4 million in the
county, and growing... There is much work to be done, but just like you,
it'll take some serious marketing and hard work. My wife has been warning me
about having to play standards, things like Romance anónimo (Romanza, the
one you mentioned?), perhaps some jazz (which I would like to learn a few)
or some nice classical pieces (which I don't mind some of [I love much
classical, especially Bach, Barrios, some Lauro, as well as lesser known
pieces which are not overplayed/overrecorded] and would be willing to make
them part of my repertoire).
"Competition? Not much, thankfully. There are three other gigging guitarists
in my city (population 250k) playing similar-ish material to me, and at the
moment I am getting the most gigs (at least, public ones, I don't know about
their private ones). It is all down to marketing, creating a niche and
developing your market as I have already said - this is actually more
important than your skills as a guitarist, although obviously you need to be
of a certain standard. I advertise, have a website, I'm listed with
agencies, I'm in the phone book under musicians, I network like mad, etc.,
etc. I now probably spend more of my time on marketing myself than I do
actually practising the guitar - that is the reality if you want to make a
sustainable living out of this. "
There is plenty of competition here, but I see myself developing a really nice
repertoire, most of which no-one else here will be playing. I also have some
ideas for marketing and recording a demo cd for possible clients (but this
is still probably ~2 years in the future). Others do similar, but each guitarist I know here plays differently and is after their own sound, as am I.
"For me, music, and guitar playing in particular, is far too important to be
wasted on something as trivial as a hobby. That does NOT mean I think that
hobbies are trivial, or that its trivial for other people to be doing this,
I am talking about my own *personal* thing."
I agree here. There is an important point I have been wanting to make, and
this is rather far into the post to make it, but I will take the time here
to make it anyway. Hopefully, others will take the time to read this entire
post. Here it is:
I think some portion of the population on this planet has some kind of biological predetermination to be musical. An even smaller sub-group will be able to express it. And an even smaller group still will experience very strong emotional rewards listening to and playing music. In any regard, why should a certain group of people, who are deeply passionate about music have to deny or at least ignore to some degree this important part of their personality to work in something to which they are not necesarily well suited?
The question of artists making a living doing their art is vastly complicated, at least I think. And there will always be people who use clichés and stereotypes to denigrate musicians and other artists, saying oh they just don't want to work, or oh they are a bunch of liberals, or whatever stupid reason they happen to come up with. But the fact remains that some people really, fundamentally, need to do music or whatever the art form is they feel is right for them to feel fulfilled in life and career.
I think I have some characteristics that make me suited well to music, perhaps a couple other characteristics less so.
I also think there is still a lack of interest just generally speaking on the part of non-artistic people and at least in the US, the cuts in funding for the arts in public schools is exacerbating the problem. There are currents to contrary, but they seem too little too late somtimes.
There are concert goers and there are well off individuals who both employ artists for their events or who fund arts through a university or through other means, but it seems to me on the whole to be of far too little value in a general way..
The above is not perfectly coherent, and may sound like just general complaining, but the point is to try to come to a realistic perspective which accounts for the status of artistic enterprise as it fits into the larger social and political context.
Anyone have comments.
Anthony
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 15 2003 19:43:22
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts
|
|
|
Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET |
0.09375 secs.
|
Printable Version
