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Globalization of flamenco
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Florian
Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia
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 RE: Globalization of flamenco (in reply to tmock)
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interesting topic, i think it is inevitable that flamenco will globalize, and true flamenco is very much about the cante, but theres no reason why people wont do it in theyr own repectives languages, once they understand the compas, toning etc. why not ? ( i know it is unthinkable now but i am sure so was rap in spanish in the 80's)
and there will always be a million people kicking and screaming but u cant stop it, i mean is what happens when you generate interest, sell dvds, tour outside your own country, give dance /guitar workshops people love it , and wanna do it...and they are going to want to add a litlle of theyr own flavours.
I dont know when , but i know it will.
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Date Nov. 12 2006 14:29:04
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sonikete
Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden
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RE: Globalization of flamenco (in reply to tmock)
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Its also about the definition of what flamenco is, a lot of flamenco artists realize that they cant live off flamenco puro so they do a lot of commersial things to be able to survive, then foreigners might listen to that and use it as an excuse to not learn about the real thing or simply mistake these attempts to make money, for flamenco.
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but theres no reason why people wont do it in theyr own repectives languages, once they understand the compas, toning etc.
The compas isnt complicated for people who grew up with it, neither is the toning or melodic expression, because its their culture, its just complicated for people who didnt grow up with it. These things are just basic requirements to appreciate the music and doesnt automatically make anyone a new terremoto.
Flamenco is a culture and tradition from southern spain, and not just musical mathematics, so the level of understanding of this culture is something we guiri aficionados have to constantly develop the rest of our lives, because there are enough things to learn for several lifetimes, if we have any serious interest or respect.
In sweden there were rockbands in the 50´s who didnt know any english and just phonetically imitated what they heard on records and the swedish audience at that time thought they were sooo authentic.
I dont want to start a new verbal battle here, i agree that a foreigner can learn flamenco, i agree that new technology can help immensly and that flamenco is exploding globally, but the global situation is a lot like with these swedish 50´s rockbands, and flamenco is a lot more intricate than tommy steele.
And that some of the things that might be considered very flamenco by a local group of aficionados in sweden, australia or on an internet forum, wouldnt necessarily get the same evaluation from someone born with it.
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Date Nov. 12 2006 15:46:11
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Florian
Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia
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RE: Globalization of flamenco (in reply to sonikete)
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sonikete i understand all that, but as flamenco becomes more accepted mainstream in western countryes , kids youngher and youngher will get into it. just like they do ballet, soccer, jazz, classical etc.
anyone can do almost anything, there is no limits.
if they dont sing it like the spanish they will sing it like themselfs, you wont call it flamenco , but the people that come after u might.
I see plenty of sweedish bands sing in english and have top selling albums in english speaking countries.
so i gues what seemed impossible in the 50 is a everyday fact of life now.
I have seen japanese singers , sing amazingly , if u listened to them with your eyes shut it couldnt have picked it.
humans are the most amazing species cause they always find a way to adapt.
yes the level will not be the same for a long long time, but all it takes is 1.
i am not saying its eazy, but its not impossible for somene young that loves singing as much as we love guitar and who is willing to dedicate himself to it fully.
dont forghet that the footwork in flamenco was brought in by hollywood, fred astaire, etc.
and its not a question of uninformed westerners listening to a flamenco pop album , or thos one of guitar cds where they use jazz to get a wider audience.
I am talking a well informed singer who decides that if he sings in spanish hes just one of the 200o or what ever but if he sings flamenco in english could allthe sudden get a bigger audience because those that didnt know what was going on for so long ( non flamenco interested or comerciall flamenco lovers westeerners)now might grow interest because they know.
flamenco its not a language, its a felling (an emotion), if u can still deliver that felling, no matter the language the age, the colour, the clothes u wear, the nationality or even the instrument used, its flamenco.
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Date Nov. 12 2006 17:45:03
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sonikete
Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden
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 RE: Globalization of flamenco (in reply to tmock)
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quote:
I´m very sure that you can learn to play and dance flamenco to a very high level being foreigner and living in a foreign country. It would help you to be with someone who has lived flamenco since you were a kid.
I think you can learn to sing flamenco as well, It would be very difficult, but I think it would be possible.
I have this dream that one day I will learn to sing siguiriyas. I said one day and it wont be soon, and oyh my its not going to be easy
Once you reach that higher level, you are usually already socializing or working with other artists at similar level, both spanish and foreign, and are learning the same things you would being in spain, so a lot has happened.
I think workshops are really important, there isnt that big difference taking classes in spain and abroad, but the feedback from the teacher is what you cant get from a DVD.
I know many non-spanish singers and many has learned a lot outside spain but none with any true ambition would consider going to spain to learn more to be irrelevant.
And i know several singers living in denmark that sings siguiriyas so i definitely wouldnt say its impossible, maybe we could meet up if you are home in dk for some reason (i wouldnt mind trying out one of your guitars either)
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Date Nov. 12 2006 17:52:48
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sonikete
Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden
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RE: Globalization of flamenco (in reply to tmock)
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quote:
i am not saying its eazy, but its not impossible for somene young that loves singing as much as we love guitar and who is willing to dedicate himself to it fully.
I agree.
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dont forghet that the footwork in flamenco was brought in by hollywood, fred astaire, etc.
I was under the impression that that was going on a lot earlier than Fred Astaire..
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I am talking a well informed singer who decides that if he sings in spanish hes just one of the 200o or what ever but if he sings flamenco in english could allthe sudden get a bigger audience because those that didnt know what was going on for so long ( non flamenco interested or comerciall flamenco lovers westeerners)now might grow interest because they know.
It might be a new subgenre, but i would like to see that before at least i would call it flamenco. Actually we have a singer here in sweden who sings a solea in swedish some times and i guess that helps the understanding for the format among the people in the audience, but i see that a bit as a novelty rather than the next development in flamenco.
I never said that i believed anything was impossible, sweden has a big international export of english language rock and pop so a lot has happened here as well since the 50´s. But that wouldnt have happened if swedish bands didnt improve or understand how to get the acceptance from the countries where that music came from.
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flamenco its not a language, its a felling (an emotion), if u can still deliver that felling, no matter the language the age, the colour, the clothes u wear, the nationality or even the instrument used, its flamenco.
Feelings are very subjective and some people might regard Ottmar as the essence of flamenco, which even he himself denies, so then we need better tools than just that to determine what is and isnt flamenco.
Flamenco is more is what im trying to say.
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Date Nov. 12 2006 18:09:00
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Ricardo
Posts: 14861
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Globalization of flamenco (in reply to tmock)
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quote:
"If great opera singers are not always Italian, and the best ballet dancers are not necessarily Russian, the time has come to assimilate the fact that in the not too distant future authentic stars of flamenco will be coming from a variety of countries."
I remember discussing this topic long ago with Estela somewhere. I am surprised she is writing that, although I am not surprised if she is writing it and sighing "ah....oh well, so much for the good ol days". I can't really tell from the article if she really has a change of heart or feels like "it's over for pure flamenco".
But to go along with a lot of that purist sentiment, which is kind of depressing to me, was something Gerardo said this summer. After he accompanied the young Jesus Mendez, an AWESOME new singer (read his interview at flamenco world), he said, very sadly, that it is a shame that in Jerez now, NO ONE under 21 is learning to sing flamenco. All the young kids are spoiled, listen to pop music, party, do drugs, whatever, and don't seem to care about the music of their parents, or grandparents...their heritage.
Perhaps he is exaggerating, but he seemed quite conscerned. I remember seeing a 12 year old girl singing really good old stuff in sanlucar, but maybe she is a rare exception, and now that she is older, not serious. I really hope there are kids somewhere who are into it because they like it. What will happen probably, like it did for Jesus, is they will discover they really like it when they are much older, and then too old to get really good at it the way the old masters had, starting as children, singing at parties with the whole family.
Of course Gerardo was one of the first to really speak up for foreignors doing flamenco. He really believes that it is legitament, but of course he knows what is really great and what is not. But that is not the point of simply "accepting" foreign flamenco. No one has to be as good a singer as Paquera, play as "gitano" as Tomatito.
No matter what happens, if foreignors take it over, or if flamenco as we know it evolves into something else, at least we have the history. No one composes Baroque style fugue nowadays, but is Bach really dead?
Ricardo
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Date Nov. 13 2006 3:01:24
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