Globalization of flamenco (Full Version)

Foro Flamenco: http://www.foroflamenco.com/
- Discussions: http://www.foroflamenco.com/default.asp?catApp=0
- - General: http://www.foroflamenco.com/in_forum.asp?forumid=13
- - - Globalization of flamenco: http://www.foroflamenco.com/fb.asp?m=48172



Message


tmock -> Globalization of flamenco (Nov. 12 2006 0:26:15)

As you all know, the forum's own Estela Zatania writes great reviews for De Flamenco. I was reading her recent review of the first Dutch Flamenco Bienial and this quote in the header paragraph jumped out at me:

"If great opera singers are not always Italian, and the best ballet dancers are not necessarily Russian, the time has come to assimilate the fact that in the not too distant future authentic stars of flamenco will be coming from a variety of countries."

I don't want to restart the argument about whether a guitarist has to go to Spain to really learn flamenco. I just think it's interesting that knowledgeable aficionados are beginning to believe that there is worthy flamenco talent emerging outside of Spain.

There's hope for us after all...keep practicing! [:D]
Travis.




Guest -> [Deleted] (Nov. 12 2006 2:38:37)

[Deleted by Admins]




Exitao -> RE: Globalization of flamenco (Nov. 12 2006 7:24:58)

I think the most important thing is for more of the flamenco 'culture' to spread along with the music.

e.g. Eric Clapton didn't need to travel to the Mississipi Delta or Chicago to become a great blues musician.

If more of flamenco culture spreads world-wide, then it may even be that people won't need to travel to Spain. Perhaps the flamenco culture won't like the idea of their culture being appropriated...




Guest -> [Deleted] (Nov. 12 2006 11:23:38)

[Deleted by Admins]




sonikete -> RE: Globalization of flamenco (Nov. 12 2006 13:37:29)

Even people born in Jerez have teachers ... I dont understand why its so taboo to discuss this?

Of course a foreigner can learn flamenco, become very good even, but being flamenco isnt about how fast you are or if you can play at the level vicente or paco, its about how well you are able to channel this expression and integrate with the cante & baile.

That means that if spanish flamencos regard you as flamenco then you have reached your goal, and you wouldnt need to be able to play any paco or vicente stuff to reach that.




Florian -> RE: Globalization of flamenco (Nov. 12 2006 14:29:04)

interesting topic, i think it is inevitable that flamenco will globalize, and true flamenco is very much about the cante, but theres no reason why people wont do it in theyr own repectives languages, once they understand the compas, toning etc. why not ? ( i know it is unthinkable now but i am sure so was rap in spanish in the 80's)


and there will always be a million people kicking and screaming but u cant stop it, i mean is what happens when you generate interest, sell dvds, tour outside your own country, give dance /guitar workshops people love it , and wanna do it...and they are going to want to add a litlle of theyr own flavours.

I dont know when , but i know it will.




Exitao -> RE: Globalization of flamenco (Nov. 12 2006 14:47:38)

The point about cante is a very good one. My comments were originally about (solo) guitar.

The issues of sounding authentic and being regarded as flamenco are somewhat related to what I referred to as flamenco culture. Especialy the cante is more than simply singing en una voz raja. As the origin of the music is cante and it's much more difficult to learn than the singing style of, say, Sonny Terry.




sonikete -> RE: Globalization of flamenco (Nov. 12 2006 15:46:11)

Its also about the definition of what flamenco is, a lot of flamenco artists realize that they cant live off flamenco puro so they do a lot of commersial things to be able to survive, then foreigners might listen to that and use it as an excuse to not learn about the real thing or simply mistake these attempts to make money, for flamenco.

quote:

but theres no reason why people wont do it in theyr own repectives languages, once they understand the compas, toning etc.


The compas isnt complicated for people who grew up with it, neither is the toning or melodic expression, because its their culture, its just complicated for people who didnt grow up with it. These things are just basic requirements to appreciate the music and doesnt automatically make anyone a new terremoto.

Flamenco is a culture and tradition from southern spain, and not just musical mathematics, so the level of understanding of this culture is something we guiri aficionados have to constantly develop the rest of our lives, because there are enough things to learn for several lifetimes, if we have any serious interest or respect.

In sweden there were rockbands in the 50´s who didnt know any english and just phonetically imitated what they heard on records and the swedish audience at that time thought they were sooo authentic.

I dont want to start a new verbal battle here, i agree that a foreigner can learn flamenco, i agree that new technology can help immensly and that flamenco is exploding globally, but the global situation is a lot like with these swedish 50´s rockbands, and flamenco is a lot more intricate than tommy steele.

And that some of the things that might be considered very flamenco by a local group of aficionados in sweden, australia or on an internet forum, wouldnt necessarily get the same evaluation from someone born with it.




Anders Eliasson -> RE: Globalization of flamenco (Nov. 12 2006 17:31:22)

I´m very sure that you can learn to play and dance flamenco to a very high level being foreigner and living in a foreign country. It would help you to be with someone who has lived flamenco since you were a kid.

I think you can learn to sing flamenco as well, It would be very difficult, but I think it would be possible.

I have this dream that one day I will learn to sing siguiriyas. I said one day and it wont be soon, and oyh my its not going to be easy.




Florian -> RE: Globalization of flamenco (Nov. 12 2006 17:45:03)

sonikete i understand all that, but as flamenco becomes more accepted mainstream in western countryes , kids youngher and youngher will get into it. just like they do ballet, soccer, jazz, classical etc.

anyone can do almost anything, there is no limits.

if they dont sing it like the spanish they will sing it like themselfs, you wont call it flamenco , but the people that come after u might.
I see plenty of sweedish bands sing in english and have top selling albums in english speaking countries.

so i gues what seemed impossible in the 50 is a everyday fact of life now.



I have seen japanese singers , sing amazingly , if u listened to them with your eyes shut it couldnt have picked it.

humans are the most amazing species cause they always find a way to adapt.

yes the level will not be the same for a long long time, but all it takes is 1.

i am not saying its eazy, but its not impossible for somene young that loves singing as much as we love guitar and who is willing to dedicate himself to it fully.

dont forghet that the footwork in flamenco was brought in by hollywood, fred astaire, etc.

and its not a question of uninformed westerners listening to a flamenco pop album , or thos one of guitar cds where they use jazz to get a wider audience.
I am talking a well informed singer who decides that if he sings in spanish hes just one of the 200o or what ever but if he sings flamenco in english could allthe sudden get a bigger audience because those that didnt know what was going on for so long ( non flamenco interested or comerciall flamenco lovers westeerners)now might grow interest because they know.

flamenco its not a language, its a felling (an emotion), if u can still deliver that felling, no matter the language the age, the colour, the clothes u wear, the nationality or even the instrument used, its flamenco.




sonikete -> RE: Globalization of flamenco (Nov. 12 2006 17:52:48)

quote:


I´m very sure that you can learn to play and dance flamenco to a very high level being foreigner and living in a foreign country. It would help you to be with someone who has lived flamenco since you were a kid.

I think you can learn to sing flamenco as well, It would be very difficult, but I think it would be possible.

I have this dream that one day I will learn to sing siguiriyas. I said one day and it wont be soon, and oyh my its not going to be easy


Once you reach that higher level, you are usually already socializing or working with other artists at similar level, both spanish and foreign, and are learning the same things you would being in spain, so a lot has happened.

I think workshops are really important, there isnt that big difference taking classes in spain and abroad, but the feedback from the teacher is what you cant get from a DVD.

I know many non-spanish singers and many has learned a lot outside spain but none with any true ambition would consider going to spain to learn more to be irrelevant.

And i know several singers living in denmark that sings siguiriyas so i definitely wouldnt say its impossible, maybe we could meet up if you are home in dk for some reason (i wouldnt mind trying out one of your guitars either)




sonikete -> RE: Globalization of flamenco (Nov. 12 2006 18:09:00)

quote:

i am not saying its eazy, but its not impossible for somene young that loves singing as much as we love guitar and who is willing to dedicate himself to it fully.


I agree.

quote:

dont forghet that the footwork in flamenco was brought in by hollywood, fred astaire, etc.


I was under the impression that that was going on a lot earlier than Fred Astaire..

quote:

I am talking a well informed singer who decides that if he sings in spanish hes just one of the 200o or what ever but if he sings flamenco in english could allthe sudden get a bigger audience because those that didnt know what was going on for so long ( non flamenco interested or comerciall flamenco lovers westeerners)now might grow interest because they know.


It might be a new subgenre, but i would like to see that before at least i would call it flamenco. Actually we have a singer here in sweden who sings a solea in swedish some times and i guess that helps the understanding for the format among the people in the audience, but i see that a bit as a novelty rather than the next development in flamenco.

I never said that i believed anything was impossible, sweden has a big international export of english language rock and pop so a lot has happened here as well since the 50´s. But that wouldnt have happened if swedish bands didnt improve or understand how to get the acceptance from the countries where that music came from.

quote:


flamenco its not a language, its a felling (an emotion), if u can still deliver that felling, no matter the language the age, the colour, the clothes u wear, the nationality or even the instrument used, its flamenco.


Feelings are very subjective and some people might regard Ottmar as the essence of flamenco, which even he himself denies, so then we need better tools than just that to determine what is and isnt flamenco.

Flamenco is more is what im trying to say.




Florian -> RE: Globalization of flamenco (Nov. 12 2006 18:18:30)

quote:

I was under the impression that that was going on a lot earlier than Fred Astaire

I wasent , but it dosent matter point is it came from hollywood to my knolodge.

quote:

But that wouldnt have happened if swedish bands didnt improve or understand how to get the acceptance from the countries where that music came from.


yes , i never said otherwise, the difference is ofcourse that sweeden is a small country trying to gain the acceptance of 4 or 5 big english speaking ones, because of the amount of bussines it can generate.

here is 4 to 5 big countries with alot of bussines trying to gain gain the acceptance of 7% of Spain ? I think not, they will try to please the general public, and gain they'r acceptance cause it makes more sence.




Florian -> RE: Globalization of flamenco (Nov. 12 2006 18:21:39)

quote:

so then we need better tools than just that to determine what is and isnt flamenco.


why would u ever want to ? anyone who cares enough about it knows what is and what isnt anything else more than that its not important.

i discovered flamenc because of gipsy kings.




Escribano -> RE: Globalization of flamenco (Nov. 12 2006 18:29:09)

Well, I am English. I met a girl selling eggs on the camino. I stole a kiss and lost my heart but she ran off with my neighbour, who had beaten his wife until she left with the kids. Now the egg girl is back, but I am not buying.

I wish I could sing solea, I am sure I qualify [:(]




sonikete -> RE: Globalization of flamenco (Nov. 12 2006 18:37:21)

quote:

why would u ever want to ?


Then why would anyone bother learning bulerias rythm or anyting more complex than a rumba? You could express that flamenco feeling without learning anything hard, as a lot of people wanting to cash in, has realized.

Flamenco is a tradition where knowledge of verses, expression and variations has been handed down in generations and the people who participate in that tradition would care.

quote:

here is 4 to 5 big countries with alot of bussines trying to gain gain the acceptance of 7% of Spain ? I think not, they will try to please the general public, and gain they'r acceptance cause it makes more sence.


And more money..

Well this is exactly what i have a problem with. Its just another expression of the same type of cultural exploitation as with black music in the 50´s and 60´s.




Exitao -> RE: Globalization of flamenco (Nov. 12 2006 19:06:29)

There is a point where distinguishing what is and what isn't 'flamenco' and arguing the minutae of flamenco becomes pedantic and snobbish. But that happens with everything complex and specialised.

Again I want to point out the issue of culture. Flamenco, technically, is a folk music. However if you tried to explain to most people how complex it is, they would be incredibly surprised.

It's interesting that for people born into flamenco culture, much of it (i.e. compas, which is the real sticking point in all discussion), comes natural and seems incredibly obvious. For them it's child's play, it so simplistic that most probably couldn't explain it more than to show the rhythm.

Foreign musicians tend to overanalyse and bring the pedantry to the table and quibble whereas for those born to the culture (the specific folk from whom the music derives) it's pretty simple it either is, or it isn't flamenco - it's not complex at all.




sonikete -> RE: Globalization of flamenco (Nov. 12 2006 19:06:39)

Sorry Florian, we seem to be at it again. But I have an severe allergy towards this pleasing the general public attitude that made the music business into the ugly machine it has become. Its nothing personal.

You probably have a more realistic view of where all this is heading, i just dont like it, profit rules and there isnt much one can do to change that.




tmock -> RE: Globalization of flamenco (Nov. 12 2006 22:12:58)

Escribano
quote:

Well, I am English. I met a girl selling eggs on the camino. I stole a kiss and lost my heart but she ran off with my neighbour, who had beaten his wife until she left with the kids. Now the egg girl is back, but I am not buying. I wish I could sing solea, I am sure I qualify


I can hear it now! [:D]

Travis.




Miguel de Maria -> RE: Globalization of flamenco (Nov. 12 2006 22:22:10)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sonikete

Sorry Florian, we seem to be at it again. But I have an severe allergy towards this pleasing the general public attitude that made the music business into the ugly machine it has become.


Pleasing the public has nothing to do with the degradation of the music industry--corporations have. Performers have always performed for the public eye, and there's nothing at all wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with making money at it, either. African religion/work chants + money = blues... gypsy/Spanish culture + money = flamenco. Without money, what would be left would be interesting and even moving but I doubt anyone on this board would be involved in it.

On the other hand, once it's the accountants calling the shots, quality and individuality are going to take a dive. It's inevitable. What is palatable to the greatest amount of people will be as bland as baby food for anyone who really knows anything.




sonikete -> RE: Globalization of flamenco (Nov. 12 2006 23:36:42)

quote:

On the other hand, once it's the accountants calling the shots, quality and individuality are going to take a dive. It's inevitable. What is palatable to the greatest amount of people will be as bland as baby food for anyone who really knows anything.


Yes thats what i mean, not that flamenco musicians shouldnt get paid, of course. And we talked about the 'general public' like in trying to please everyone by making flamenco into MTV material.

But as i said to Zata i doubt that someone like Agujetas would become huge even with madonnas marketing budget, and everything has to be huge to please a multinational corp.

But you never know, a day maybe comes when the majority is sick of being fed babymusic and wants a real meal.




sonikete -> RE: Globalization of flamenco (Nov. 13 2006 0:55:33)

quote:


Well, I am English. I met a girl selling eggs on the camino. I stole a kiss and lost my heart but she ran off with my neighbour, who had beaten his wife until she left with the kids. Now the egg girl is back, but I am not buying. I wish I could sing solea, I am sure I qualify


[:D] Yeah, thats one audio upload id love to hear!




Ricardo -> RE: Globalization of flamenco (Nov. 13 2006 3:01:24)

quote:

"If great opera singers are not always Italian, and the best ballet dancers are not necessarily Russian, the time has come to assimilate the fact that in the not too distant future authentic stars of flamenco will be coming from a variety of countries."


I remember discussing this topic long ago with Estela somewhere. I am surprised she is writing that, although I am not surprised if she is writing it and sighing "ah....oh well, so much for the good ol days". I can't really tell from the article if she really has a change of heart or feels like "it's over for pure flamenco".

But to go along with a lot of that purist sentiment, which is kind of depressing to me, was something Gerardo said this summer. After he accompanied the young Jesus Mendez, an AWESOME new singer (read his interview at flamenco world), he said, very sadly, that it is a shame that in Jerez now, NO ONE under 21 is learning to sing flamenco. All the young kids are spoiled, listen to pop music, party, do drugs, whatever, and don't seem to care about the music of their parents, or grandparents...their heritage.

Perhaps he is exaggerating, but he seemed quite conscerned. I remember seeing a 12 year old girl singing really good old stuff in sanlucar, but maybe she is a rare exception, and now that she is older, not serious. I really hope there are kids somewhere who are into it because they like it. What will happen probably, like it did for Jesus, is they will discover they really like it when they are much older, and then too old to get really good at it the way the old masters had, starting as children, singing at parties with the whole family.

Of course Gerardo was one of the first to really speak up for foreignors doing flamenco. He really believes that it is legitament, but of course he knows what is really great and what is not. But that is not the point of simply "accepting" foreign flamenco. No one has to be as good a singer as Paquera, play as "gitano" as Tomatito.

No matter what happens, if foreignors take it over, or if flamenco as we know it evolves into something else, at least we have the history. No one composes Baroque style fugue nowadays, but is Bach really dead?

Ricardo




Florian -> RE: Globalization of flamenco (Nov. 13 2006 4:58:11)

Sonikete its cool , i am not saying is what i would like to see or dont i am just giving you probabilities.

At the moment atlist about 30 people (dancers/singers/guitarists) form my litlle city go to Spain every year to learn.

and we are just a small city

Theres atlist 1 flamenco school in almost every single city of the world, in my litlle city theres 7 atm.

the beginners classes range from 60 to 30 students

intermediate from 30 - 15

advanced 10 - 5

add that for every city in the world, and there is alot of flamnco lovers, students outside spain, probably even more than the hole flamenco comunity in spain.

forreign flamenco is a huge part of flamenco bussines but if u are willing to take money giving dance/guitar workshops /sell dvds/tour u have to realize everysingle one of this people want to do something with it. (weather good or bad)




Exitao -> RE: Globalization of flamenco (Nov. 13 2006 5:38:12)

quote:

No one composes Baroque style fugue nowadays, but is Bach really dead?


Let me get a shovel. I'll get back to you on that. [8D]




gerundino63 -> RE: Globalization of flamenco (Nov. 13 2006 11:35:39)

If flamenco wasn't adopted by foreighners through Sabicas in the 60ties,
And even more importand Paco de Lucia in the 70 ties,
I bet he started a lot of young people by than, to pick up flamenco guitar abroad.
In a time Franco was in that poor Spain, nearly a third world country...
In the 80ties flamenco was nearly died out, it was old fashioned music, maybe, just maybe the people from out of Spain are the savers of the art?

I also think, in the future, there will be a bigger gap than there allready is between the singing and the guitar.

Peter




sonikete -> RE: Globalization of flamenco (Nov. 13 2006 14:52:59)

quote:

just maybe the people from out of Spain are the savers of the art?


Cante is an aquired taste for a lot of people and takes a bit of personal effort to understand and will never become mainstream music if it isnt prostituted into something unrecognizable as cante.

And some international aficionados of flamencoguitar never makes that effort or aquire this taste.

I dont see it as a "purist" mentality to care about if cante records are dying because of lack of demand, i see that as a passionate and concerned reaction to this redefinition of flamenco that is imposed from market demands.

People outside spain is the global market, and if the global market wants to buy a lot of cante records then there will be more of that and if we buy ottmar then that is what will be the international norm for what flamenco becomes.

So in a way its up to us because in spain its more or less becoming just like the rest of the world where kids rather play computergames than listening to fernanda.




duende -> RE: Globalization of flamenco (Nov. 13 2006 15:09:02)

quote:


At the moment atlist about 30 people (dancers/singers/guitarists) form my litlle city go to Spain every year to learn.

and we are just a small city

Theres atlist 1 flamenco school in almost every single city of the world, in my litlle city theres 7 atm.

the beginners classes range from 60 to 30 students

intermediate from 30 - 15

advanced 10 - 5



[:D][:D][:D][:D] best thing i ever heard [:D][:D][:D] thats hilarious to me


May i invite you all to live in any swedish city besides Gothenburg, Stockholm and Malmö.

I dare you to find flamenco anywhere[:D][:D][:D]

Sonikete. You have been into this flamenco thing longer than me and maybe you are older than me, So you might know where there is any flamenco?


Florians "little" city is 1 079 200 people




sonikete -> RE: Globalization of flamenco (Nov. 13 2006 16:07:33)

quote:

Sonikete. You have been into this flamenco thing longer than me and maybe you are older than me, So you might know where there is any flamenco?


Well in Sweden i guess its mostly in the three cities you mentioned, there is also some activity going on in Lund but in Copenhagen is a lot and in Århus in Dk and Helsinki and Tampere Finland and Oslo. I think every major city in Scandinavia has some Flamenco activity, but its as you say mostly centerd around the capitals.

And globally i guess its the same..




duende -> RE: Globalization of flamenco (Nov. 13 2006 17:15:25)

globally every city is obviously big like stockholm.[:D]




Page: [1] 2    >   >>

Valid CSS!




Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET