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Picado info
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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 Picado info
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Reprinted from Ye Olde Classical Guitar Forum, in response to Jon Boyes' infamous question about the phantasmal "2nd joint player": :)
Dave writes:
Hi Jon, this is a real puzzler.
You’re right about the old style flamenco picado: straight fingers, the movement coming from the knuckle, the hand shifted toward the bass side. Players who do (or did) this for picado then have to move the hand toward the treble side ("thumb position") to get a better angle of attack for the rest-stroke thumb. For arpeggios, the hand is somewhere between the two extremes of picado position and thumb position. The hand has to move back and forth a lot, which is ok in older styles but not so convenient for some modern stuff. An example is sixteenth note pamipimaimim, in which the first eight notes are arpeggio and the last four notes are picado. Although the movements can be quite large and noticeable in some flamenco players, they can also be seen in classical players, although usually not as extreme. The shifting is more obvious in players who still observe the rest/free stroke distinction.
There is a trend in flamenco to work from a more central hand position. What you describe with the fingers starting out in a neutral curved position for both picado and arpeggio seems to be pretty much what is done. Here are some reasons for the change to curved fingers in picado:
1. The curved finger is a functionally shorter lever from tip to knuckle, compared with a straight finger. This shorter lever length gives a better mechanical advantage, and it can be moved fast.
2. The curved fingers enable a more centered position for picado, compared with the old straight-fingered picado position, because the hand is more compact.
3. It is quite easy to minimize finger movement with the curved-finger rest stroke, partly because it is easier to control the shorter lever in the return stroke.
However, the problem is not so much with the starting curve of the fingers as with when and where the flexion occurs during the stroke. As you reported it, the typical description has most of the movement in the second joint, not in the knuckle. To make sense of this advice we need to consider two coordinated issues—timing of use of finger joints and relative amounts of force used at the joints.
1. What happens often (and perhaps ideally) is that the movement is initiated in the knuckle, perhaps with the two finger joints held in fixation or perhaps with some movement in the second joint as well. (I am following Carlevaro’s usage of ‘fixation’, meaning keeping the joint still but not rigid, the way an expert skier or horseperson keeps the torso centered, not floppy, but not locked.) The initial string tensioning movement in one or both joints can be tiny if the stroke is started with the fingertip very near the string or from a planted position on the string. Because the movement in the knuckle is tiny, it may not be observed and described accurately, leading to a mispercepton that nothing is going on at the knuckle.
2. As the string is released, the majority of the movement shifts to the second finger joint. The amplitude of movement in the second joint can be much bigger than that in the knuckle at this point without causing tension.
3. According to a simplified description of this sequence that I often use in teaching, the power part of the stroke is mostly in flexion at the knuckle and the release part of the stroke is mostly in the second joint. This description is useful for students who are learning to correct a faulty stroke that is dominated by extension rather than flexion at the knuckle, because they never fix it until they get flexion in the knuckle. In using this description I want to keep it fairly simple, emphasise force coming from the flexion at the knuckle, but not preclude also having some force come from flexion at the second joint. Even with this simplification, the poor student already has too much to think about at first.
4. During the release part of the stroke there may or may not be further movement at the knuckle, depending on how high the wrist and/or the palm of the hand are above the string. Higher gives more freedom of movement at the knuckle but may limit speed, which is probably why we see a flat wrist in lots of flamenco players.
5. In this sequence of steps, the majority of the force is applied with movement primarily in the knuckle, or by movement in both the knuckle and the second joint. Of course this is before the string is released. If fixation is maintained in the second joint in this phase, force originating from flexion of the knuckle will be transmitted through the second joint without necessarily involving movement at that joint at that stage of the stroke.
6. As the string is released, force against resistance changes to relaxation and follow-through, regardless of the relative amplitude of movement in the two joints. I won't address the counterforces that are needed after string release, because that is a whole separate issue and area of possible contention.
7. Although I have mentioned several variants in joint usage, at no point have I suggested that flexion should be blocked in the knuckle. This seems to be a key to interpreting the advice that the movement is primarily in the second joint. Blocking the knuckle produces tension and speed reduction, so if you emphasize movement in the second joint you must be careful not to inhibit it in the knuckle.
8. If a player tensions the fingertips on the strings partly by moving the forearm and right elbow to move the hand toward the bass side to produce the tension, it may appear that the knuckle joint is fixed and all movement is coming from the second joint, but I don’t think so—the analysis stays like the one given above, with the addition of force from the arm. Note that for flamenco players this movement results in a straight slide of the forearm, not an arc of the forearm rotating on the elbow, perhaps as a function of the position of holding the guitar. As a result, the hand is likely to move toward the bridge as the lower strings are approached, lending more edge to the end of a run.
In summary, the advice to move more at the second joint has to be considered within the context of the basic principles of maintaining balance in the hand and allowing all the joints and muscles to participate in an integrated action. Trying hard to limit movement to a single joint is a mistake, but allowing more or less movement at a joint without interfering with other movements can usually be achieved without bad results if the player is clear about when in the stroke the movement is to be allowed and, probably most important, the player is scrupulous about using tension as a danger signal.
Cheers, Dave
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 2 2003 18:14:00
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: Picado info (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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Look, I'm probably the most picado-obsessed person here, and my eyes glazed over after the "interesting point, Jon, here's my subdivided list of phenomena..." or whatever. Still, if you are interested in your picado and being a better player, don't count out any source of information. You can choose to believe that the only way to learn to play is to sit around with a guitar for 10 hours a day, or you can choose that there is a lot of info that can help you floating around there. It can sometimes just take a simple exercise, a phrase worded just a bit different, to unlock something in your playing and help you improve tremendously. I absolutely believe that. You can reinvent the wheel or listen to people who've been there before.
 
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 2 2003 20:53:42
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: Picado info (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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The hand has to move back and forth a lot, which is ok in older styles but not so convenient for some modern stuff.
--there are different positions for picado, arpeggios, and thumb work in old-school flamenco. in old-school flamenco the fingers are typically held straight
There is a trend in flamenco to work from a more central hand position. What you describe with the fingers starting out in a neutral curved position for both picado and arpeggio seems to be pretty much what is done.
--now it's more common to have a position somewhere inbetween the old-school positions, so that the various techniques can be attacked without changing the hand position
1. The curved finger is a functionally shorter lever from tip to knuckle, compared with a straight finger. This shorter lever length gives a better mechanical advantage, and it can be moved fast.
--something to do with physics or mechanical engineering says that having a curved finger is good-and fast!
2. The curved fingers enable a more centered position for picado, compared with the old straight-fingered picado position, because the hand is more compact.
--with a curved finger, you don't have to use an extreme hand position. you can do the picado from the same position you can do arpeggios in.
3. It is quite easy to minimize finger movement with the curved-finger rest stroke, partly because it is easier to control the shorter lever in the return stroke.
--something about having the fingers curved, to do with mechanical engineering, makes it easier to make short movements--economy of motion!
we need to consider two coordinated issues—timing of use of finger joints and relative amounts of force used at the joints.
--the finger has three joints. In what order to they fire? Which one exerts the most power?
1. What happens often (and perhaps ideally) is that the movement is initiated in the knuckle, perhaps with the two finger joints held in fixation or perhaps with some movement in the second joint as well.
--Usually, good players base the picado on third-joint movement.
(I am following Carlevaro’s usage of ‘fixation’, meaning keeping the joint still but not rigid, the way an expert skier or horseperson keeps the torso centered, not floppy, but not locked.)
--this is a good image, a good sensation to keep in mind.
The initial string tensioning movement in one or both joints can be tiny if the stroke is started with the fingertip very near the string or from a planted position on the string.
--any stroke requires string-tensioning--pushing down-- and then the release. If you keep your fingers near the strings, you can hardly see any movement at all.
Because the movement in the knuckle is tiny, it may not be observed and described accurately, leading to a mispercepton that nothing is going on at the knuckle.
--this is fairly comprehensible, for once!
2. As the string is released, the majority of the movement shifts to the second finger joint. The amplitude of movement in the second joint can be much bigger than that in the knuckle at this point without causing tension.
--first you push down, then you release the string. Like in archery. He's saying the second joint is responsible for the release, and it can have a much bigger movement than the knuckle (which pushed down) without causing any problems.
3. According to a simplified description of this sequence that I often use in teaching, the power part of the stroke is mostly in flexion at the knuckle and the release part of the stroke is mostly in the second joint.
--
This description is useful for students who are learning to correct a faulty stroke that is dominated by extension rather than flexion at the knuckle, because they never fix it until they get flexion in the knuckle.
--I'm not sure what this means. I think it means that you can use the finger in two ways, by pushing out or by pulling, and that pulling is more desirous.
4. During the release part of the stroke there may or may not be further movement at the knuckle, depending on how high the wrist and/or the palm of the hand are above the string. Higher gives more freedom of movement at the knuckle but may limit speed, which is probably why we see a flat wrist in lots of flamenco players.
--Lay the forearm on the guitar. That's flat. Now arch your wrist. That's high.
5. In this sequence of steps, the majority of the force is applied with movement primarily in the knuckle, or by movement in both the knuckle and the second joint. Of course this is before the string is released. If fixation is maintained in the second joint in this phase, force originating from flexion of the knuckle will be transmitted through the second joint without necessarily involving movement at that joint at that stage of the stroke.
--I think he's saying that it's possible to make a stroke using _only_ the third-joint (or knuckle), and that if you keep the second joint fairly stiff it doesn't have to move at all.
6. As the string is released, force against resistance changes to relaxation and follow-through, regardless of the relative amplitude of movement in the two joints. I won't address the counterforces that are needed after string release, because that is a whole separate issue and area of possible contention.
--an academic footnote.
7. Although I have mentioned several variants in joint usage, at no point have I suggested that flexion should be blocked in the knuckle. This seems to be a key to interpreting the advice that the movement is primarily in the second joint. Blocking the knuckle produces tension and speed reduction, so if you emphasize movement in the second joint you must be careful not to inhibit it in the knuckle.
--No matter how much your stroke happens to use the 2nd knuckle, you need to use the third knuckle some!
8. If a player tensions the fingertips on the strings partly by moving the forearm and right elbow to move the hand toward the bass side to produce the tension, it may appear that the knuckle joint is fixed and all movement is coming from the second joint, but I don’t think so—the analysis stays like the one given above, with the addition of force from the arm. Note that for flamenco players this movement results in a straight slide of the forearm, not an arc of the forearm rotating on the elbow, perhaps as a function of the position of holding the guitar. As a result, the hand is likely to move toward the bridge as the lower strings are approached, lending more edge to the end of a run.
--One way of getting leverage on the strings is to use the arm to push down slightly into the strings. That doesn't invalidate anything that has been said before. Because flamencos often do this, they slide their hand to play on various strings, whereas classical players move their hand in a semi-circular motion.
In summary, the advice to move more at the second joint has to be considered within the context of the basic principles of maintaining balance in the hand and allowing all the joints and muscles to participate in an integrated action.
--A balanced hand is a happy hand. Playing picado with just one joint is like running without ankles! (I just made that up).
Trying hard to limit movement to a single joint is a mistake, but allowing more or less movement at a joint without interfering with other movements can usually be achieved without bad results if the player is clear about when in the stroke the movement is to be allowed and, probably most important, the player is scrupulous about using tension as a danger signal.
--whew! hope that helps someone.
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 3 2003 1:53:03
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Jon Boyes
Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
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RE: Picado info (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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Mike
I was contemplating posting a link to Dave's reply to me, but I thought it might be too scary for some people. Looks like I wasn't wrong!
Technique microanalysis isn't for everybody. Simon is right with his point that you don't need to know exactly what's happening in order to *learn* how to do it. You don't teach someone to ride a bike by saying "Ok, I want you to place your feet on the pedals and initiate extension at the hip joint, thus elevating your femur with accompanying flexion at the knee joint..."
However, dismissing this material because one doesn't understand it, or because one doesn't see the value of it as a teaching aid is a mistake IMO. Technique microanalysis is fundamental if you want to discuss/analyse anything in real detail without the benefit of real-life demonstration, and that means acquiring the vocabulary to understand it. 'Bend your thumb knuckle' is ambiguous, for example, whereas 'flexion at the second joint' isn't, because terms like flexion and extension are the correct, unambiguous terms for joint movement in specific directions.
For what its worth, I do understand what Dave is saying, I am used to discussing these matters with him in the context of classical guitar tech, and so I am used to his densely detailed style. He is an extremely knowledgable guy and probably one of the most knowledgable people I've come across when it comes to technique analysis - of many fingerstyles : classical, flamenco, lute etc. I think you did a good job of simplifying his material, Mike.
Its worth pointing out that Dave's post was trying to answer some incorrect information from me: I said that certain players had advocated middle joint picado, when in fact they had not. Having said that, Dave's post does clear up a few things that had me confused (like although Juan Martin advises to generate picado from the third joint, the accompanying photo in his book clearly shows significant flexion at the second joint also, possibly more so.)
Jon
PS Simon (no offence also) but I think at Woodstock sometimes Hendrix sounded like he didn't know what he was doing 
...whereas I always thought SRV sounds like he knows exactly what Hendrix was doing. 
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 3 2003 9:51:42
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