Better response and sound

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Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

Better response and sound

I read about this in an article on John Gilbert the American luthier written by Paul Magnussen. It seemed sensible so I tried it and it works.
I thought I should pass it on.

Mark the string locations on the bridge saddle with a pencil and then take it out.

Use a small diameter circular metal file to file out the bone from the space between the strings on the under side - the saddle now looks a bit like an arched stone bridge with the strings located over the solid pillars.

This seems to seperate the sound and makes immediate contact between each string and the sound board. Sort of channels the energy down and focused onto the tapa.

It also ensures that the saddle has direct contact with the bridge and removes any problems from the long unerside of the bone or grove in the rosewood, not being perfectly level.

Jim.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 24 2006 19:22:24

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: Better response and sound (in reply to Jim Opfer)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim Opfer
Use a small diameter circular metal file to file out the bone from the space between the strings on the under side - the saddle now looks a bit like an arched stone bridge with the strings located over the solid pillars.

Hi Jim

My gig guitar is an electro acoustic Takamine and the saddle is shaped like that -the balance across the strings is great. Often with piezo-equipped guitars you get some strings that are too loud/too quiet etc when amplified, but my Tak is spot on and very clear.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 24 2006 19:54:40

edgar884

Posts: 1975
Joined: Nov. 16 2005

RE: Better response and sound (in reply to Jim Opfer)

Sounds like a good Idea, I lower my action every few times I change my strings, so I think I will try that as well.

Why is my bridge saddle angled on the bottom where it rests on the bridge.

LIke a knife edge sorta.

How are you Jim and how is school going.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 24 2006 20:04:34

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Better response and sound (in reply to edgar884)

quote:

How are you Jim and how is school going.

LOL!

Edgar, Jim graduated from University well over 20 years ago!

His kids are at school though..

Jim...sounds a novel idea and I can't see why not?
Why don't the Luthiers do that?
Maybe there is a reason?

Time for Anders or Aareon to chime in here?

PS:

quote:

the saddle now looks a bit like an arched stone bridge with the strings located over the solid pillars.

You'd never guess from that that Jim is an Architect....

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 24 2006 20:15:57

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Better response and sound (in reply to Jim Opfer)

Hmmm. well it would apply more pressure per square inch, but the same amount of total pressure, right? Any engineers can tell us what ramifications that would have?

I've actually heard of something like this, wasn't sure if it was a Takamine thing or Tusq.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 24 2006 22:19:29

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: Better response and sound (in reply to Ron.M)

Hi Ron,

Saw fellow Scotsmen on TV walking round in Aberdeen with short sleave shirts, can that be right?

How are you and how's the playing?

The bridge modification works a treat and I guess it will improve the sound of any guitar. I guess most makers are traditional with minor modifications to internal strutting or may be slight differences in body size, but this small change seems to have a very direct effect.

Wish I were back at school though and being 17 again, life as an Artichoke gets hard from time to time.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 24 2006 22:21:50

edgar884

Posts: 1975
Joined: Nov. 16 2005

RE: Better response and sound (in reply to Jim Opfer)

Could have sworn you were in school, my bad who was it that had left the forum and went to school for a while. HMMMMM

Well anyway I'ts good to hear from you JIm, You've been out for a while ehhhh.

Why is the bottom of my saddle angled like a knife, sorry still curious, anyone know.

Seems like the more saddle hitting the bridge, the more tone and volume you would get. But I thought maybe it's so there is less to sand when lowering the action.

It looks like it is about a 45 degree angle. Is it common to have high action on a Flamenco guitar, I've allmost got my action right where I like it, but when I bought it, it was pretty high for a Flamenco but low for a Classical guitar.

hmmmmmmmmmmm pondering....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 24 2006 23:16:59

Garyw1960

Posts: 91
Joined: Nov. 13 2005

RE: Better response and sound (in reply to Jim Opfer)

I will try this and let you know.......I am in the process of changing strings and saddle on a Vincente Sanchis anniversary model 1992 which I am trying on like it or return it basis, his guitars seem universally unpopular amongst the forum members who replied to an earlier thread, but every guitar is different.
Thanks for this Jim and others.
Regards

Gary

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 25 2006 7:15:08

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: Better response and sound (in reply to Garyw1960)

Gary,

I had a VS some time back and thought it was very good.
Ralf on Foro has it now and he posted some sound clips a while ago played on that guitar. Might be fun for you to listen and compare.
It'll be interesting to hear your thoughts although if the guitar is on a sale or return basis, might be advisable to make a second saddle.

Jim.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 25 2006 12:52:11

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: Better response and sound (in reply to edgar884)

quote:

Well anyway I'ts good to hear from you JIm, You've been out for a while ehhhh.

Yes! really busy at work these days and I just drop in from time to time to read posts and try to keep up. So many people now with very diverse interests, so thanks Simon and everyone for making it a great site for flamencos.

I haven't seen that angled detail on the saddle before, seems like a similar idea to focus the energy in some way but as you say, might be just to make adjustments easier.

Keep posting those audios, I enjoy listening to them.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 25 2006 12:58:26

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: Better response and sound (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Hi MdM,

I can't lay out and demonstrate the numbers on it and as I said, it's not my idea, I'm simply passing it on, but if you imagine you strum a chored, all the frequencies radiate out and travel down through the bone to the bridge then to the tapa. In doing so they get mixed around and interact with each other, I guess some frequencies cancelling others out, but I don't really know. Anyway, this design limits the radial spread and focuses the sound from each string down into the guitar. It seems to clean up the sound and increase volume but you would have to try it and see for yourself.

Cheers
Jim.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 25 2006 13:19:53

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Better response and sound (in reply to Jim Opfer)

Well, worth a try. If you scroll down on this page, they actually show a graphic picture of guitar sound waves!

http://users.rcn.com/dante.interport/guitar.html

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 25 2006 14:37:40

nhills

Posts: 230
Joined: Jul. 13 2003
From: West Des Moines, IA USA

RE: Better response and sound (in reply to Jim Opfer)

http://schrammguitars.com/gilbertbridge.html

and

http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/~jw/guitar/patterns_engl.html

and

http://www.truenorthguitars.com/Clients/Richman/index2.htm

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 25 2006 15:17:33

Per Hallgren

Posts: 241
Joined: Jul. 1 2006
From: Sweden

RE: Better response and sound (in reply to Jim Opfer)

I have made my saddles like that for more than a decade. My interpretation of what happens is that the arches make the saddle more flexible across its length. On a classical guitar, that has a higher saddle than a flamenco, there is a risk of losing contact with the bottom of the bridge slot when the top and bridge bends from the force of the strings. By filing arches the saddle has better chances keeping contact over all its length. It is the same technique that is used when installing a piezo mic under the saddle to get an even response from all the strings.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 25 2006 15:19:58

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to Jim Opfer)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 25 2006 15:23:06

Per Hallgren

Posts: 241
Joined: Jul. 1 2006
From: Sweden

RE: Better response and sound (in reply to Guest)

I make the saddle like this:

_o___o___o___o___o___o_

___o___o___o___o___o___

Explanation: The "O" on the top is the strings, the "o" below should be a U turned upside down. Thus the saddle is "opened" from below, not from above. The arches is not filed so high that they show above the edge of the bridge.

I don't know of any of my +150 saddles that have cracked because of the arches. The arches is filed with a round file of ca 2.5 mm radius.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 25 2006 15:48:39

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: Better response and sound (in reply to Per Hallgren)

That's it Per.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 25 2006 16:00:37

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: Better response and sound (in reply to Guest)

quote:

With the strings resting on the higher pieces?

No, as Per's diagram.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 25 2006 16:01:09

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Better response and sound (in reply to Jim Opfer)

So it looks like a Roman aqueduct, right?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 25 2006 17:00:52

Per Hallgren

Posts: 241
Joined: Jul. 1 2006
From: Sweden

RE: Better response and sound (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria

So it looks like a Roman aqueduct, right?

Right! The strings should rest over the pillars, the arches is to make the saddle pliable.

The higher the bone, the more use you get of this technique so the classical saddles benefit more than the average flamenco.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 25 2006 17:04:49

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: Better response and sound (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

So it looks like a Roman aqueduct, right?

Yes, that is what I was trying to explain with my arched bridge description with the strings resting over the pillars.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 25 2006 17:16:56

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: Better response and sound (in reply to nhills)

quote:

tp://schrammguitars.com/gilbertbridge.html

Yes, that's it, what did I say, John Gilbert.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 25 2006 17:19:30

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to Jim Opfer)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 25 2006 17:39:46

Patrick

Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon

RE: Better response and sound (in reply to Jim Opfer)

Hi Jim, long time no talk.

So here is what I did to an extra saddle for my DeVoe negra last night. I put an extra arch on the ends of the saddle. Don't know if that makes any difference or not. OK, the verdict is still out. I can hear a definite difference on the bass strings, but no change (that I can tell) on the trebles. What it has done is cleaned up the basses and focused the sound a bit more. It has also given the basses more of an edge to them. The basses seem to have a bit more volume as well.

Now the negative. The one thing it has done for sure is reduced the wonderful overtones. In fact it has given it more of a blanca harshness to it. Now that may be a good thing for a lot of negra's that suffer from sounding like classical's. But my DeVoe has a lot of edge to it to start with.

I’ll play it a bit more and put the old saddle in to do a comparison.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 25 2006 20:18:21

ykabban

Posts: 251
Joined: Jan. 11 2006

RE: Better response and sound (in reply to Jim Opfer)

Patrick, that's funny, I made one similar to one of my inexpensive flamencos as a "test". It definately made a difference, at least to my ears. I think your trebles will recover, given some time. Here's a pic below; trying to describe the sound difference in words doesn't make sense, but I would recommend for others to at least try it out.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 25 2006 21:03:40

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Better response and sound (in reply to Patrick)

Pat and Jim,
This all seems very plausible, engineering wise...but what I tend to ask myself is this..
Why after a couple of hundred years of "modern" guitar making, where Luthiers have sat up all night thinking about slight modifications to bracing systems, woods etc...has this simple modification for improving guitar tone eluded them?

?

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 25 2006 21:56:49

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Better response and sound (in reply to Jim Opfer)

Ron,
we'll probably find out in about ten years when the tops all crack in two!!!!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 26 2006 3:45:53

Garyw1960

Posts: 91
Joined: Nov. 13 2005

RE: Better response and sound (in reply to Ron.M)

Ron

I think you may have answered the question of why no luthier has thought of this simple idea...............too simple, no years of scratching away with sandpaper etc.

Theres a man called Bill Moll who builds Jazz guitars who scallops the bracing in the guitar............. perhaps we are entering the era of architectural inspired guitar building. The heads of spanish guitars are often inspired by shapes from moorish buildings, Deangelico Jazz guitars take on the head shape of a New York skyline.

Just a thought

Gary

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 26 2006 4:34:14

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Better response and sound (in reply to Jim Opfer)

What happens if you use lowtension strings and you hammer a hard Rumba. Could it be that the strings flipping in the gaps of the bone?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 26 2006 8:11:16

Per Hallgren

Posts: 241
Joined: Jul. 1 2006
From: Sweden

RE: Better response and sound (in reply to Garyw1960)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Garyw1960

Ron

I think you may have answered the question of why no luthier has thought of this simple idea...............too simple, no years of scratching away with sandpaper etc.

...

Gary

As I wrote in an earlier message I have done this for more than 13 years. This is not an advanced technique. It's just a small detail in the whole picture of the setup of a guitar, but it is certainly not a too simple detail to ignore.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 26 2006 12:29:52