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Posts: 2006
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
Another Conde post
Seems like prices for used ones may be falling. I see some signed models going for just over 3k, while others are almost 10k. Is there really that much difference in quality?
I don't think prices were that low a few years ago, but since I'm a lefty, I don't follow the market closely.
You don’t provide any reference. Since I have been involved I watched used guitars go from 3k to about 5K. The difference between a 7k and 5K same make a model would be cracks and wear and stuff. There was once that kabong guy pushing his 10k 1972 which was ridiculous and I got the same type of guitar for 5K. There had been 3-4k examples along the way, good deals. One of the best I have ever seen, 1960, went for 6k, the guy needed cash. Same with famous guitars going at Solera relatively cheap. A couple 10k examples like paco or manolo famous ones I think. Sort of understandable. But the tricky thing was the post 2011 split of Mariano and Felipe that we have discussed. Felipe going for 11k based on his name and rep and his son 8k (still in this range I believe). I have stated the son is better and it is a deal therefore. All things considered.
So I don’t know the loss on the newer condes in the market but that should be normal for some decades before they rise or dip based on how used sales go. Other guitars are crazy like Reyes. Vicente and Tomatito made an 8k guitar jump to 20k for no damn good reason (and the fault of Guitar Salon etc. driving the market). I always recommend dan zeff as honest about it. He has had 3-4k condes all along, as owners need to unload for whatever reason. So market seems to me the same since 1990s for used conde, so if there is a general dip it is because people are buying new ones more than used, or economy etc. But you need to provide us with links and information.
I see some signed models going for just over 3k, while others are almost 10k. Is there really that much difference in quality?
Yes.
Hi Mark have a look at the Conde questions thread for more background as to why not all guitars with a Conde label and media luna are equal, either as guitars or in value.
The 2000 Felipe V is being sold by Soniquete on Reverb. He's got it on sale reduced from $5000, now at $4200 a good price. He is a very fair and knowledgeable seller, I highly recommend him. It is an unsigned label so worth less, but doesn't mean it's a second, it means it was originally sold to an artist at reduced price.
A 1960s, 1970s, early 1980s Gravina 7: $6-9K. 1990s Felipe V: $5-7K at Solera or Mundo Flamenco but you can get one for less from a private seller. 10-15 years ago prices were average $5K so they have gone up, but not like vintage electric guitars. Atocha, Felipe Conde , Mariano Conde, Conde Crepso is yet another story.
Conde Atocha/gravina 2nd hand are getting cheaper , the 4/5k range you can get for less than 3k , for like start 1,9k to 3k , it depends , altough they are more recent like 201x or 202x the rest , Ricardo allready replied.
As i told in the other topic , Spanish market is huge . really dont know why people are selling , if for a new Conde or for another maker. you can get a new top guitar for a price (or almost) a used Conde for example.
Theres a guy in Uk selling a very very nice Mint Ramirez ( 80s or 90s) for 3k Im seeing right now a Conde Gravina (8os) for 2k
I’ve checked the links you have posted: one is a fake , the others are made by Ricardo Sanchis Carpio but the last one which would be a gemstone if it wasn’t for a wrong neck angle.
Among the Conde output you may find the best flamenco guitars ever made. I mean it. Unfortunately many are average or poor. The point then is to know the criteria to pick the right one, as if you have to pick the right book in a library. This foro is one of the few sources of information about it, so you may take advantage and search the right infos.
What I consider to be an exceptional Conde is mostly confined to the past, but exceptions. Some new ones are very good as well but they are modern sounding and I consider them at the same level of guitars made by other luthiers.
Thank you so much! Clearly I'm out of my depth in trying to evaluate these guitars.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Echi
I’ve checked the links you have posted: one is a fake , the others are made by Ricardo Sanchis Carpio but the last one which would be a gemstone if it wasn’t for a wrong neck angle.
Among the Conde output you may find the best flamenco guitars ever made. I mean it. Unfortunately many are average or poor. The point then is to know the criteria to pick the right one, as if you have to pick the right book in a library. This foro is one of the few sources of information about it, so you may take advantage and search the right infos.
What I consider to be an exceptional Conde is mostly confined to the past, but exceptions. Some new ones are very good as well but they are modern sounding and I consider them at the same level of guitars made by other luthiers.
I see some signed models going for just over 3k, while others are almost 10k. Is there really that much difference in quality?
Yes.
Hi Mark have a look at the Conde questions thread for more background as to why not all guitars with a Conde label and media luna are equal, either as guitars or in value.
The 2000 Felipe V is being sold by Soniquete on Reverb. He's got it on sale reduced from $5000, now at $4200 a good price. He is a very fair and knowledgeable seller, I highly recommend him. It is an unsigned label so worth less, but doesn't mean it's a second, it means it was originally sold to an artist at reduced price.
A 1960s, 1970s, early 1980s Gravina 7: $6-9K. 1990s Felipe V: $5-7K at Solera or Mundo Flamenco but you can get one for less from a private seller. 10-15 years ago prices were average $5K so they have gone up, but not like vintage electric guitars. Atocha, Felipe Conde , Mariano Conde, Conde Crepso is yet another story.
Good stuff. Just to add, I have seen the 90s era Atocha condes with Ricardo Sanchis stamp inside, and they were upsold a bit, but not crazy, around $1200. I am certain people have gotten away with selling those Sanchis made Condes for Felipe V prices (5K) so watch out.
The 2000 Felipe V is being sold by Soniquete on Reverb. He's got it on sale reduced from $5000, now at $4200 a good price. He is a very fair and knowledgeable seller, I highly recommend him. It is an unsigned label so worth less, but doesn't mean it's a second, it means it was originally sold to an artist at reduced price.
Nice and honest guy, I agree. I know also that particular guitar and the story behind that guitar and that label is different imho. Still the best of the bunch but not the best he is selling.
It's my first time to see a Media Luna from Felipe V shop without the signature. I found a conde made on 1990 in Felipe V shop which has the same rosate. I think that rosate is from Garcia but I forget the name of the luthier.
It's my first time to see a Media Luna from Felipe V shop without the signature.
Mine is unsignet as well. I read once they didn't sign if they were not fully content with the guitar. I think it dates from around 1985. When we bought it it was dated but somehow it faded. Maybe some signatures faded as well.
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Traditionally, unsigned label are sold as 2nd choice. It doesn’t mean they actually are, but it does mean tha they are guitars sold at less than the target price. The Conde guitars used to be more expensive to the public than the average luthier’s made guitars in Madrid and yet Faustino used to grant a very good discount to the pro-players but with an unsigned label.
Usually the Conde sold in Calle Felipe V are almost always signed but those from the years 1985-1989 (before the shop got definitely independent). These guitars used to have a separate label with the signatures either or Mariano or Felipe.
The head of the guitar seems not like the model of Felipe V, which more like Atocha. I asked Mariano Conde about this guitar, and he wasn't quite sure about the guitar's authenticity. I am not saying that Soniquete’s guitar is fake, I know him and his guitar is great. But there are so many swindles about Conde. Some people just print a picture as a guitar label, and even have a white border
The guitar is a legitimate Conde Felipe V and probably a good one. The headstock doesn’t look correct as this guitar was not made in 2000 but way before (l rosette and headstock shape are enough to identify the right year) but labeled and sold in 2000. That guitar was in France and then sold to the actual seller, who is a very good fellow.
The guitar is a legitimate Conde Felipe V and probably a good one. The headstock doesn’t look correct as this guitar was not made in 2000 but way before (l rosette and headstock shape are enough to identify the right year) but labeled and sold in 2000. That guitar was in France and then sold to the actual seller, who is a very good fellow.
While I am sure you have reasons based on info that makes this a special case, as a buyer this one is very suspect and would require some extra proof, especially with regard to a born on date that is NOT the date on the printed label. The simple thing I might accept would be this was a window display model (it has the detailing of the old catalogue and can be sort of corroborated that way) that later got pulled down, labeled, and sold. However, this begs the question….who the F would build one of these top models and not already have the label attached before the darn back gets glued on, locking in the neck angle? That right there basically proves outsourcing, as in out of shop and then when it arrives they are fixed with labels through the hole to instruments made by god knows who, and god knows when.
who the F would build one of these top models and not already have the label attached before the darn back gets glued on, locking in the neck angle?
I think this is normal practice for some luthiers- label is last thing added? Certainly Felipe Conde's instagram often shows fully built guitars where the label has yet to be glued in. Javier Castano also. This doesn't confirm one way or other about outsourcing; it would be simple to give the outsourced builder pre-signed labels to glue in at whatever stage of build they want.
In that Conde transition phase 1989,1990 there are a few guitars that are strangely labelled. I've seen a few Condes where labels get added with a date after the year of build.
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In this case I have some extra infos as it happens I was after that specific guitar a couple of years ago when it was for sale in France. Eventually I decided not to to buy it and the guitar was bought by the actual seller, once again, a guy I completely trust.
That guitar was intended as a 1st class model made in 1989/1990 for the Felipe V shop but the brothers decided not to sell it. Eventually it was labeled and sold just in 2000. The matter of the labels is linked with the complicate matter of outsourcing in Spain.
There can be various reasons to use an alternative date. When my father ordered/collected his 11 string Alto guitar in Stockholm he had it predated for a year in order to avoid import tax. He even brought a fake concertprogram suggesting he just went there to gave a concert :-).
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The smaller the object of your focus the bigger the result.
I think this is normal practice for some luthiers- label is last thing added? Certainly Felipe Conde's instagram often shows fully built guitars where the label has yet to be glued in. Javier Castano also.
Um, naw, I can’t buy into that. . I would need to see like some top tier guy doing it to believe that. Any guitar like those you just showed are surely outsourced, and specifically, dangerously so to be sent with no label. Even just having it in the shop while you work with no label seems dangerous to me. Those condes look like Manitas’s new cheap factory guitar for cryin out loud!
Most of the good luthiers will put the label on the back wood when the back's work finished. But my luthier friend put the label on the guitar when all the works finished. So I think it can't represent anything. It is just a personal habit.
Hi Echi! You mentioned the wrong neck angle before. What is the right one for the general condes? I have Diego's Whatsapp and I can ask him something about this guitar. If this guitar is a good one, I will buy it when I am ready for it.
eish , mines no factory lol you can go to sevilla and see mans working but can you see on the condes? hum......
jesus so much work , worry etc about a guitar or supposed guitar made from someone, like the guitar is kind of a Ferrari or Pagani... whos gonna to buy premium with all the red flags atached? makes no sense. At least i know where mines come from , Ole
Don’t agree with that. I am the first in criticising the method but the first to praise their goals. I consider some Conde to be among the best flamenco guitars ever made. I for one am happy to own 3. With regards of the method, Conde shares a certain ambiguity with many other in Spain.
Felipe Jr Conde Crespo also puts the label in after the guitar is built. Maybe it's a Conde tradition! They're certainly not trying to hide it.
Right, well, I meant, I need to see a NON - conde associated luthier do this. In case we have forgotten all these guys are accused of outsourcing for good reasons. Just think about it for a second…they have student model guitars coming in with no labels that they stick in, and then….their in house master guitar also they don’t stick the label till the end?? It is a tricky thing.
I know we see Crespo making his guitar at every stage on instagram etc…But his last name is “conde”. Whoever makes his guitars is THE great Luthier for sure.
Right, well, I meant, I need to see a NON - conde associated luthier do this. In case we have forgotten all these guys are accused of outsourcing for good reasons.
Ramirez, bernabé, Contreras, Arcangel to mention a few. Ramirez and Conde started together, around 1959, to gather some luthiers under their firms. It's the economic boom. Better said: they decided to increase their output and then to train luthiers according to their standard so that they could work exclusively for their shop "tarifa por pieza" or for a guitar rate. Ramirez did it in the sunlight: each maker had their bench, their tools and their stamps: they could pick the woods from Ramirez stock and be paid at the consignment. Manzanero told me he named over 4 guitars (but to be varnished) per month. Eventually if José liked the guitar he accepted it and then stick his label, either a first class (label with a blue frame) or second class (with gold frame and red frame later). Ramirez sopped the stamp thing after Contreras, Bernabé e Manzanero set their own shop and begun his main competitors.
Conde did the very same thing, but his makers were working in confidentiality in the Pozuelo place. If the guitar was accepted, they put the Conde stamp. If they accepted it as a second class model, they put the stamp without signing it. Conventionally a guitar with unsigned label is sold for less. Till 1963 the labels of the guitars sold to the pro-players used to have a personal dedication on the label, to make clear the guitar was sold with a special price. Later on the Sobrinos started to sell them guitars with non signed labels, so that they would have not been sold for a top price in the 2nd hand market
This is why the stamp is glued just after the guitar can be played and evaluated.
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this Topic is an insult to Banana "profession"
Stephen is an artist and a proper artisan. I praise his bravery as I myself gave up the idea to make it as a living. Pure artisans are usually much better in proper guitar making, but this doesn't entail small companies like Conde, Ramirez, Bernabé etc. cannot make great guitars.
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