Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
Dear luthiers who use lacquer / high gloss finish,
I bought a guitar second-hand (with damage insurance), and the seller swears up and down that the guitar was totally pristine when it left his hands at the shipping store. It arrived to me today and it looks like the finish bubbled up. Can someone give me an estimate of how much that would cost to repair? I'm trying to figure out a rough dollar amount for such a repair so that I can provide that estimate to the insurance company so they can compensate me for the damage. I'm assuming this was due to heat in transit?
RE: How much would a lacquer re-do cost? (in reply to rombsix)
Pictures are so weird, it's not easy to diagnose problems like this without the instrument in hand. If the pockmarks are actual indentations then it looks like the damage could have been caused by a hard object banging against the heel during transit. If that's the case the transit company would have a good argument that the instrument was either improperly packaged or already damaged at the point of packaging. If the finish is smooth over the defects, then the bubbles could have occurred due to excessive heat during transit, but I'm not so comfortable with that. If there was some form of gassing off happening under the cured finish due to heat I wouldn't expect to see such clearly defined bubbles. I'd expect to see broader separation. These bubbles are tiny. Their appearance (if under the finish) looks more like actual bubbling that would have occurred when the finish was wet and curing.
Everything is repairable. Worst case would require a complete refinish spray of the neck or at least the heel. If it's Nitrocellulose lacquer then a sanding of the heel to the point that the finish breaks through the lacquer surface to expose the bubbles and an overspray would do the trick. A poly type of finish is more complicated because a respray won't "burn in" to the old finish the way nitro would. If it's shellac then the repair is super easy, but I'm reasonably certain it's not.
Honestly, if you can't live with the defects and can return the guitar, that's what I would do. It's pointless accusing the seller of being misleading, although I have plenty of war stories about just how dishonest sellers can be when it comes to guitars. But, if they'll take it back, that's what I'd do. You might have to eat the shipping costs, but if you are unhappy with the guitar it might be worth it to get it out of your hair. Word of caution though, if the seller is being less than honest about the state of the instrument at the point of sale, they may also be less than ideal to deal with concerning a return and getting a refund.
If you can't return it then try to get the seller to cover the repair. It'll be hell to get the shipping company to pay for this (if I were them I wouldn't) and you're probably looking at a couple to few hundred dollars worth of work.
But, really, you have to bring it to someone so they can physically examine the problem and give a proper quote. It might not be such a big deal. Plus, you'll need that to open a claim, regardless. Also, hopefully my response isn't coming across as too cynical. A competent tech giving it a hands-on will be able to set it straight with regard to estimates and also repair.
Best of luck with this, hope it all gets resolved without too much fanfare.
RE: How much would a lacquer re-do cost? (in reply to RobF)
Hi Rob,
Thanks for the response.
The guitar sits very snug inside the hard case it was shipped in, so there's no way that a hard object could have been banging the heal during transit. I examined how the guitar sits inside the hard case, and the heel does not make contact with any part of the inside of the hard case, so I think it would be physically impossible that a hard object so uniformly and repeatedly hit the heel.
The shipping company specializes in shipping very expensive fine art through custom wooden crates and whatnot, so it's not a novice company. It's been around for 30 years. This company is a local one, and then it has bigger couriers like FedEx, UPS, etc. come pick up. The local company did not allow me to purchase damage insurance (but rather only loss insurance) unless they packed it to the insurance company's and courier's standards that qualify for damage protection. In other words, the local company has a "standard" packing method, and they have a "next level" packing method that then allows the customer to purchase additional insurance that covers not only loss, but also damage in transit.
The seller is not someone I had ever interacted with, but he seemed ultra-nice and honest, and he is a celebrity in the guitar world (like Grammy award nominations, etc.) and has been doing this for 45 years (so not a newbie). I have no reason to believe he is misrepresenting the original condition of the instrument prior to shipping (i.e. it was entirely pristine, with none of the blemishes pictured).
Regarding touching that blemished area: if you notice, the "bubbles" are both on the heel/neck and on the ebony fingerboard. Interestingly, if you run a finger on the heel/neck area of the bubbles, they are completely impossible to feel. They are only visible, but there's nothing tactile. However, when you run your finger just a few millimeters higher up, on the actual black part (the ebony fingerboard) where there are also bubbles, there, you *do* feel some indentations - i.e. the bubbles can be felt. Why they can be felt only on the ebony but not on the "yellow" part of the neck/heel, I have no ideal. I guess it has to do with the properties of the wood? Ebony versus whatever the heel/neck are made of?
This guitar was made by the luthier to pay tribute to this celebrity guitar player, so the luthier went above and beyond to ensure the instrument was far higher than any other they've made, quality-wise, so I would be really surprised if, in light of that occasion of making it, the luthier totally screwed up the polish and sent a "new" instrument that had such defects.
I don't want to return the guitar because it sounds *amazingly* good. And it plays very nicely. I would much rather keep it and figure out how I can repair it.
I think it would make more sense to resolve this between me and the seller directly rather than involve the corporations, but I think I am at the mercy of the seller at this point. If he insists on going the claim route rather than resolving between me and him, there is nothing else I can do.
You stated, "a couple to few hundred dollars worth of work" - do you mean something like $500 or so?
I may end up having to take it to a local luthier for a hands-on quote, indeed, especially if we're going down the claim route, as you stated.
RE: How much would a lacquer re-do cost? (in reply to rombsix)
Can you contact the luthier directly and ask for advice? They might even be able to do the repair ( best case).
It’s difficult to give estimates based on online pictures. You really should let someone inspect it for that. I suspect you might have to eat the cost of the repair. Ultimately, even if it’s a few hundred dollars the savings in stress relief would be worth it. It’s just one of those things where everyone involved is likely to feel that they’re in the right. Or if one of the players knows they are not and digs in their heels it’s just going to be a major pain in the butt to resolve, if not impossible.
Main thing is the guitar is fixable, this isn’t a big deal repair. If you love it and want to keep it then maybe the extra cost over time is acceptable. Hope it works out.
RE: How much would a lacquer re-do cost? (in reply to RobF)
Unfortunately, the luthier is far, far away not on this continent. To get the guitar there would be impossible.
OK Rob - I don't want to push you any further. Thank you!
If someone else here has seen something like this or can give me an estimate, I'd highly appreciate it. (you can even PM me, and just respond here saying you PM'd me, so I can know to look at my PMs, because I don't seem to get any or maybe just not getting notifications for them?)
I'm also looking into this with a local luthier as we speak.
I figured it would be good to get multiple viewpoints so we can reach as sound as possible of a determination (in case we're going down the route of compensation, whether via the seller directly, or via the insurance company).
RE: How much would a lacquer re-do cost? (in reply to rombsix)
One little thing that might help. If you’re able to contact the luthier and ask what finish he used that could be helpful info. If it’s nitro and you can find someone who works with that the repair should be quite straightforward. Sometimes sealers can cause problems like this, I mean the interaction between the sealer and the lacquer. I’m at the doctors right now so I’m kind of slamming these out, in case it reads poorly. I’ll come back and fix it later when I have time :)
RE: How much would a lacquer re-do cost? (in reply to RobF)
Thank you, Rob. I hope it's nothing serious (that needs you to be at the doctor's office). I'll take that recommendation into account. There's a bit of a backstory to this instrument, so it might not be wise that I contact the luthier, but I'll talk to the seller and see what he thinks about me contacting the luthier (perhaps down the line, once I get some feedback from some other luthiers here or locally in NYC, and once I get a sense of how we might be approaching this matter either directly with the seller and/or the insurance company). Appreciate your guidance!
RE: How much would a lacquer re-do cost? (in reply to rombsix)
I had the same issue with the cheap (really cheap) guitar , i even post it here .. Do you have in other places as well like the front/back or just that area? in my case since the guitar is really cheap , i just applied Wax to close the pores and thats that. I just found odd , one picture detail that seems like varnish Spill near the fingerboard/neck/fret , picture 111819 for example , also seems a finish defect and not due to ship , but what do i know? The guy didnt send it pictures before ship ? or even the ship company ?
Shellac in Europe is at least minimum 250/300eu (quote to all of the guitar) some charge more it depends . Poly is cheaper and works well in some guitars and with a good professional that knows how to do it , same as Nitro . Some people prefer Poly when well worked and applied. I think that it had to be sanded again and aplied whatever the finish is , if only the neck/hell , it has to be all of the neck and hell and not that particular area.
RE: How much would a finish repair cost? (in reply to rombsix)
It's called Orange Peel. Look online and there's better explanations as to the cause than I can offer. Climate change can effect lacquer a lot, but again living in the UK I don't have to worry about that so much. I suspect any repair cost will depend on whether it can be sanded and polished out or not. You need to establish who's responsible. Not sure I agree that nitro repair is straight forward, but that's another debate.
RE: How much would a finish repair cost? (in reply to rombsix)
Oh I know what happened. The solvent in the glue used to glue the material to the inside of the case reacted with the finish on the guitar.
You see some case makers use a glue that’s thinned with the same solvent as the solvent used to thin lacquer. The guitar was in the case and it all may have gotten heated up a bit, doesn’t take much, 90 degrees F. to get significant off gassing from the solvent in the glue.
The best way to treat a case like this is to open it up and leave it in the sun for a few days and that usually helps the solvent off gas enough so it doesn’t burn guitar lacquer.
The damage to the guitar is minimal. It can be rubbed with Assilex and reshot in spots with lacquer and then buffed out.
The fake fur/velvetine liners in guitar cases are usually glued in with rubber cement, the solvent for some kinds of rubber cement is lacquer thinner, or something like that, or even nastier solvent. It matters where the case is made and what the codes are in that country for VOC regulation. I always do a round of off gassing with new cases by letting them lay open for a week before I ship a guitar in them. UV from direct sunlight usually ensures the VOC stuff evaporates, but more than once I’ve seen guitars, not mine, but shipped from certain countries with this problem.
RE: How much would a finish repair cost? (in reply to rombsix)
The area in the case that holds neck has lots of corners, maybe the person who glued the liner is slopped a bunch of glue there. But I’d say 80% I guess that’s what it is, and I d seen this twice on guitars I’ve received for touch up work, and heard about it from steel string makers who use lacquer.
You could probably fix it yourself, it’s a matter of smoothing the bubbles, masking it off then spraying a bit of Stew Mac rattle can lacquer. Then polish it out. Or take it to a steel string repair shop and have them do it.
Posts: 292
Joined: May 3 2017
From: Iraq, living in Germany
RE: How much would a finish repair cost? (in reply to estebanana)
this reminds me... A couple of years ago I was asking about the finish on my guitar bubbling up because it sat in direct sunlight in the car inside its case for a couple of minutes. and it was exactly at the sunlight spot where it bubbled up horribly at the top, side and the same area around the neck like ramzi showed.
when I got my case it literally reeked of chemicals. it's a handmade case with a velours cushioning inside. i left it open for a pretty long time and the whole room stank pretty intensely. but apparently it wasn't blasted enough with sunlight. could you imagine the same happening to my guitar?
RE: How much would a finish repair cost? (in reply to jalalkun)
quote:
ORIGINAL: jalalkun
this reminds me... A couple of years ago I was asking about the finish on my guitar bubbling up because it sat in direct sunlight in the car inside its case for a couple of minutes. and it was exactly at the sunlight spot where it bubbled up horribly at the top, side and the same area around the neck like ramzi showed.
when I got my case it literally reeked of chemicals. it's a handmade case with a velours cushioning inside. i left it open for a pretty long time and the whole room stank pretty intensely. but apparently it wasn't blasted enough with sunlight. could you imagine the same happening to my guitar?
Sounds very likey that the solvent in the rubber cement had not off gassed and was activated by heat.
Printable Version
not on this continent. To get the guitar there would be impossible. 
Thank you! 
New Messages
No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages
Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages
Locked w/o New Messages
Post New Thread