Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
I have never taken any flamenco guitar course so I don't know what are advantages of one to one lessons with spanish teachers. These days we have access to many internet tutorials which also seem to be accurate. You have music notation on screen etc. Do you think guys going to spain and learning at flamenco school is still the most effective way of learning ? If yes , can you mention few advantages of learning flamenco guitar in spain versus learning flamenco guitar from internet tutorials ?
RE: flamenco guitar courses in spain... (in reply to Morante)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Morante
In Spain you will not learn better guitar. You will learn flamenco.
That is the right answer.
You could optimize your learning experience in Spain by doing some prefatory lessons online, but really that's so you don't go there and get overwhelmed. Morante hit the nail on the head, however. Lots of members can advise as lots of members regularly make the trip to study.
RE: flamenco guitar courses in spain... (in reply to RobF)
thanks for replies
in flamenco schools do you know guys how they solve problem with language barrier ? what they do with people who dont speak spanish at all but speak some english ? do they have teachers who speak some english ?
RE: flamenco guitar courses in spain... (in reply to rafapak)
quote:
ORIGINAL: rafapak
thanks for replies
in flamenco schools do you know guys how they solve problem with language barrier ? what they do with people who dont speak spanish at all but speak some english ? do they have teachers who speak some english ?
A good part of this is on you. You can find teachers and schools where some English is spoken but really the onus is on you to learn some Spanish. Some schools, like the Carmen de las Cuevas in Granada, offer Spanish lessons in addition to their courses in guitar and dance. I mean, think about it, if you have an interest in learning Flamenco which is, by definition, a Spanish arte, then Learning some of the language is only going to enrich your journey.
I'm not saying it's a requisite, but if you really are passionate about learning then meeting the teachers halfway with respect to their language is always going to be beneficial.
Posts: 15233
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: flamenco guitar courses in spain... (in reply to rafapak)
Learning flamenco from Morante’s perspective is a very deep intellectual pursuit, which is accompanying the cante with your guitar. Way before even going that deep, at the superficial level of online tutorials etc., just playing guitar physically, that is called being “self taught”, because you could be using those materials incorrectly with no way of discerning what is important and whether your interpretation is correct. So the difference you are actually asking is what is the benefit of an actual GUITAR TEACHER, vs learning by yourself.
There are some people that do well on their own, being self critical, but most of us need feedback and immediate correction as to not develop bad habits. A real life teacher can give you this, but you have to pay for it. This is not complicated. A teacher in Spain will most likely be more authentic, an alternative being a teacher local that has in fact studied in Spain with some Maestros (going there is cutting out the middle man).
RE: flamenco guitar courses in spain... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
Learning flamenco from Morante’s perspective is a very deep intellectual pursuit
I don´t really think so: I have never studied guitar but I have studied el cante. If you know cante you can accompany with a rudimentary guitar. This is flamenco de verdad: obviously a professional on stage is another world: tonight in la Peña we have the great Paco Leon al toque
Posts: 15233
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: flamenco guitar courses in spain... (in reply to Morante)
Some flamenco guitar students utilize the bulk of their bandwidth to learn, and memorize guitar solos. Others use it for dance Choreographies. Yet others for cantes. I have tried to squeeze in all 3, and the last one is taking up the most space at this point, bumping out of my head many guitar solos and dance routines. It is why we have discussed and engaged often about guitar playing here, rhythmic playing for dance, and only have that one long cante accompaniment thread that only a handful of members contributed to over the years. The reason is because it is too difficult a subject to engage with, vs nails, picados, and compás. If it were the easiest thing, like learning chords to folk songs, many more would be actually doing it.
I get the point, you don’t need a lot of physical guitar technique to simply follow a singer, but it is an intellectual game that happens which turns out to be more challenging than developing techniques in the end.
Posts: 1943
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: flamenco guitar courses in spain... (in reply to Ricardo)
I think it's a different ball game. For foreigners, the cante is often the last stop on the line, when it should be the first. And I think it's because of the lack of good singers outside Spain. We have decent dancers, so we can learn to play for dance. But playing for cante requires a lot of listening to cante, and learning how to play for it, without much possiblity of actually doing it.
Funny Ricardo, you recently wrote that you don't need to play picado to play for cante, and I'm working on a three minute bulerias that you can't even play a falseta because the singer didn't leave room for one.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
Some flamenco guitar students utilize the bulk of their bandwidth to learn, and memorize guitar solos. Others use it for dance Choreographies. Yet others for cantes. I have tried to squeeze in all 3, and the last one is taking up the most space at this point, bumping out of my head many guitar solos and dance routines. It is why we have discussed and engaged often about guitar playing here, rhythmic playing for dance, and only have that one long cante accompaniment thread that only a handful of members contributed to over the years. The reason is because it is too difficult a subject to engage with, vs nails, picados, and compás. If it were the easiest thing, like learning chords to folk songs, many more would be actually doing it.
I get the point, you don’t need a lot of physical guitar technique to simply follow a singer, but it is an intellectual game that happens which turns out to be more challenging than developing techniques in the end.
Posts: 15233
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: flamenco guitar courses in spain... (in reply to Mark2)
quote:
For foreigners, the cante is often the last stop on the line, when it should be the first.
I think it should be listened to early on, but to actually do it you need some background stuff under your belt first. For example, after we can actually play several compás patterns, which normally only book end falsetas in a guitar solo, we are “ready” to start learning about dance accompaniment. In the class we quickly confront the issue of fitting the music to the dance, and memorizing dance steps, and the intellectual aspect of the art begins. In that context we eventually get to wrap our head around a full length “Soleá” let’s say, where we change gears, do llamadas to change tempos, escobillas that speed up etc. But imbedded in the routine we are learning there are the cantes that are more or less set in stone, depending on the dancer. We are “forced” to accompany the cante by supplying the required chord structure for the specific letras the dancer wants.
We learn to bridge between different cantes and that they have specific structures that function better fast or slow, etc. There are players that remain happy in this world indefinitely, memorizing the mathematics of steps and rhythms and only ever engage with singing that is predetermined to fit the choreographed structure. We often get lucky if we encounter the singer that knows how to improvise within these constraints such that they teach the attentive guitarist to listen to the variations on the models that work and don’t disturb the dancer. That is like baby steps into the world of cante, but it certainly makes it easier to understand formal structure than jumping in with an advanced singer that is throwing the guitarist curve balls left and right with the assumption that the tradition is well understood already.
The very first lesson that came from Diego Agujetas to a young Ricardo (me) in Sanlúcar was that my conception of the cuadrao cante melody (as typically done in dance) had to break, and so he sang the letras at weird entry points in hopes to throw me off track. It is a horrifying feeling but a valuable lesson. When I had a second chance (years of study later), I was ready, and because he realized I was, he took me to the next level of learning. Only certain initiated folks in the audience around us knew what was happening. That is why I am saying this thing is deep and not easy to do. You are correct that foreigners don’t get the chance unless they go there and immerse themselves.
RE: flamenco guitar courses in spain... (in reply to Ricardo)
I remember one day when José Millán said "Tientos por er tre" OK. first change was normal, to tangos de Cádiz. Second, without warning was tangos de Triana, third, without warning was tangos de Màlaga and the remate was por Garrotín. All very easy if you recognize the cante, but I always ended up in a sweat after playing for José
Posts: 1943
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: flamenco guitar courses in spain... (in reply to Ricardo)
Of course you are correct in that you need the basics first. I skipped over those steps in my post because I already went through the initial training of playing for dance and standard square cante as sung in the US by a handful of non spanish singers.
The jump to the next level I'm finding is substancial in that you can't just memorize the chord changes -you have to actually know the cante, which, as you say, is a huge undertaking.
I'm at the place where I'm figuring out how pros play for various cantes, and copying their parts. After figuring out the where and when, I concentrate on the why. Why is the chord change here, and why is the extra six there. Then it's hearing the singer call for the change in the unusal(to me) place. This takes me quite a bit of time. A lot of repeated listenings.
I doubt I'll live long enough, or have enough of the immersive experience in order to be able to do it on the fly, but at least I can reach a new level of understanding and aficion. That and the pleasure of just playing along with a recording of a great singer and making the changes is well worth it to me.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
For foreigners, the cante is often the last stop on the line, when it should be the first.
I think it should be listened to early on, but to actually do it you need some background stuff under your belt first. For example, after we can actually play several compás patterns, which normally only book end falsetas in a guitar solo, we are “ready” to start learning about dance accompaniment. In the class we quickly confront the issue of fitting the music to the dance, and memorizing dance steps, and the intellectual aspect of the art begins. In that context we eventually get to wrap our head around a full length “Soleá” let’s say, where we change gears, do llamadas to change tempos, escobillas that speed up etc. But imbedded in the routine we are learning there are the cantes that are more or less set in stone, depending on the dancer. We are “forced” to accompany the cante by supplying the required chord structure for the specific letras the dancer wants.
We learn to bridge between different cantes and that they have specific structures that function better fast or slow, etc. There are players that remain happy in this world indefinitely, memorizing the mathematics of steps and rhythms and only ever engage with singing that is predetermined to fit the choreographed structure. We often get lucky if we encounter the singer that knows how to improvise within these constraints such that they teach the attentive guitarist to listen to the variations on the models that work and don’t disturb the dancer. That is like baby steps into the world of cante, but it certainly makes it easier to understand formal structure than jumping in with an advanced singer that is throwing the guitarist curve balls left and right with the assumption that the tradition is well understood already.
The very first lesson that came from Diego Agujetas to a young Ricardo (me) in Sanlúcar was that my conception of the cuadrao cante melody (as typically done in dance) had to break, and so he sang the letras at weird entry points in hopes to throw me off track. It is a horrifying feeling but a valuable lesson. When I had a second chance (years of study later), I was ready, and because he realized I was, he took me to the next level of learning. Only certain initiated folks in the audience around us knew what was happening. That is why I am saying this thing is deep and not easy to do. You are correct that foreigners don’t get the chance unless they go there and immerse themselves.
Posts: 221
Joined: Mar. 17 2015
From: Virginia USA
RE: flamenco guitar courses in spain... (in reply to rafapak)
I can you about my experience. I have taken online lessons via Skype with US based teacher as well as with Spain based teachers. I also have taken guitar lessons at Taller Flamenco and Cristina Heeren Foundation in Seville, and Carmen de las Cuevas in Granada; six times @ Carmen Cuevas, each time from 3 to 6 weeks, four times at Taller Flamenco, 2 to 4 week each. All lessons were 5 days a week, 60-80 minutes each day. All my teachers were high caliber professionals. The main difference was the total immersion in flamenco when I attended schools in Seville or Granada. After classes I would hang out with other students, make plans where to go for flamenco shows. There is La Carboneria in Seville which is free. In Granada there are many venues too, such as La Chumbera, Teatro Isabel La Catolica, AlboreA, etc. I generally go to the show once a week, €12 - 20. Initially I did not know any Spanish so it was a little difficult in the dance accompaniment class, but not so in the guitar class. Now my Spanish is better, I enjoy the classes even more. My guitar level is intermediate/advanced but at my age I do not expect to improve much more. Learning flamenco in Spain is my “excuse” for vacation which I do twice a year. I also started taking flamenco dance lessons a year ago. It was just for health and coordination, but it turned out to be lots of fun. I hope the information is helpful to you.
RE: flamenco guitar courses in spain... (in reply to rafapak)
Goldwingthai touches on an aspect of studying in Spain that can't be overstated...taking courses in some of the schools or planned events like the one in Sanlucar (sp?) has a social aspect that really adds to the experience. Not only will you be studying something you have passion for but you'll also be meeting like-minded people who share that passion.
I've only done an intensive course in Spain once. I stayed six weeks and studied Spanish in the mornings, and guitar and Palmas in the afternoons. Then home to practice the material and after that out to meet with newfound friends for entertainment, sightseeing, or just hanging out and enjoying the evenings. I can understand why Goldwingthai has made it a regular event. It really is worthwhile if you can find the time and funds to do it.
Posts: 1943
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: flamenco guitar courses in spain... (in reply to RobF)
I'm off to my first one this Oct. -Paco Serrano's course in Cordoba. Been trying to go to Gerardo's for years, first it was covid, then my work, which is the busiest in the summer. But this Oct it's finally happening. Hoping to make it an annual event.
quote:
ORIGINAL: RobF
Goldwingthai touches on an aspect of studying in Spain that can't be overstated...taking courses in some of the schools or planned events like the one in Sanlucar (sp?) has a social aspect that really adds to the experience. Not only will you be studying something you have passion for but you'll also be meeting like-minded people who share that passion.
I've only done an intensive course in Spain once. I stayed six weeks and studied Spanish in the mornings, and guitar and Palmas in the afternoons. Then home to practice the material and after that out to meet with newfound friends for entertainment, sightseeing, or just hanging out and enjoying the evenings. I can understand why Goldwingthai has made it a regular event. It really is worthwhile if you can find the time and funds to do it.
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England
RE: flamenco guitar courses in spain... (in reply to Mark2)
Returned to gerardos course last year for 1st time in ten years. Not gonna make this year but gonna do next year! Gonna try and rally some old folks for a mini reunion. And perhaps some new foro guys? Anyone wanna aim for a foro meet up in sanlucar for gerardos course in july 2025.??
Book your flights rafapak! No spanish needed.
Talking of this.... sorry to hijack. Does anyone have contact details for ex foro regular... adam Solomon? Pm me if you do. Thanks
RE: flamenco guitar courses in spain... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
That is like baby steps into the world of cante
Ricardo, you are right.
But when I was invited a few años ago to a birthday fiesta in a Peña de Jerez. I found myself with 6 gitanos who wanted to sing por bulería, not my palo. So how do you count all the "sixes" in Jerez?? You don´t. Because they are an invento de los guiris, with their flamenco clock, etc. Flamencos do not count.
I played for half an hour, just playing along and giving the tones. When they stopped, one of then said "tienes muy buen compàs, chaval" I replied "no tengo compás, I just played along, giving the tonos." He said " Muy bien, asi aprenden los niños!"
What the guris call sixes are part of the cante: when the letra passes what we see as 12, the tocaor does a remate.
In Jerez el cante todavía manda. The baile has done a lot of damage to cante flamenco.
Posts: 15233
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: flamenco guitar courses in spain... (in reply to Morante)
quote:
The baile has done a lot of damage to cante flamenco.
And ironically they think they “know best” how cante should go, and systematically force young singers to sing square letras…and always the same ones over and over. And if you want to work as a singer you better do it their way cuz that is where the money comes from, not festivals on occasion. And to be fair to all the guiri dancers….it is the SPANISH dance teacher that are counting first and foremost. Check baby Farruquito with his Grandpa…counting compás and beating his cane.
Posts: 1943
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: flamenco guitar courses in spain... (in reply to Morante)
This is what I'm trying to do. It's not about counting, and I'm trying to not consider at all if there is an extra six, just listen to the cante and remate at the right time. It's interesting in that I have to let go of the sign posts that I have ingrained for a long time, and that can cause some uncertainty. Sometimes I still have to analyze what happened in order to understand it, but I'm trying to get away from that.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Morante
quote:
That is like baby steps into the world of cante
Ricardo, you are right.
But when I was invited a few años ago to a birthday fiesta in a Peña de Jerez. I found myself with 6 gitanos who wanted to sing por bulería, not my palo. So how do you count all the "sixes" in Jerez?? You don´t. Because they are an invento de los guiris, with their flamenco clock, etc. Flamencos do not count.
I played for half an hour, just playing along and giving the tones. When they stopped, one of then said "tienes muy buen compàs, chaval" I replied "no tengo compás, I just played along, giving the tonos." He said " Muy bien, asi aprenden los niños!"
What the guris call sixes are part of the cante: when the letra passes what we see as 12, the tocaor does a remate.
In Jerez el cante todavía manda. The baile has done a lot of damage to cante flamenco.
RE: flamenco guitar courses in spain... (in reply to rafapak)
Most teachers in Spain will happily teach over Whatsapp or Skype. Expect them to try to fleece you on guiri prices. Be late and slow to respond. Annoying for everyone. Learning Spanish and customs/norms are iMO PRErequisites. Follow some people you like on Instagram and message them about classes after they advertise, not before. Courses are meet the maestro, mostly a waste of time if judged per minute. One on one is where it is at or you might as well just hit youtube.
RE: flamenco guitar courses in spain... (in reply to rafapak)
I subscribed to Flamenco Explained for a couple of years, Kai is a fantastic tutor and the resources on there are huge.
However, I have just subscribed to Online Flamenco and Tino Van Der Sman is an exceptional tutor, best I have seen. If you really can't find a good face to face tutor I recommend you look at the Flamenco Starter Kit. There is a link to a 14 day free trial in the YT video below. His explanations of technique and the basic exercises seem perfect, he is a natural teacher, brilliant.
The videos are in Spanish but very well subtitled in English by OnlineFlamenco. For the YouTube video below just click the closed caption subtitle option in YouTube.
_____________________________
The early bird catches the worm. But the second mouse gets the cheese.
Posts: 1943
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: flamenco guitar courses in spain... (in reply to silddx)
I've been subscribed for a few years now. I was hooked by the opportunity to get feedback from a pro working in Spain. I have studied with various guitarists, some very skilled, but never with a guy who was currently working in Spain.
Although I learned how to play for dance many years ago, being far away from Spain I had developed some bad habits, and let things seep into my playing that would not really sound authentic, or even good. I had hoped Tino would help in that regard and I worked most of the weekly lessons on the site in order to review basic ways of doing things, as well as learn some new material.
The experience turned out better than I had expected because Tino was able to do exactly what I hoped he would-guide me toward producing a more professional sound. The bonus was his ability to transmit how to approach accompanying cante as it's sung in Spain. IME that is a rare thing to access when you are not in Spain.
I would encourage you to upload videos and particpate in the monthly live sessions as the feedback he gives will guide you in the proper direction. He really is a great teacher and the more I've studied his playing and material, the more I realized how skilled he really is.
quote:
ORIGINAL: silddx
I subscribed to Flamenco Explained for a couple of years, Kai is a fantastic tutor and the resources on there are huge.
However, I have just subscribed to Online Flamenco and Tino Van Der Sman is an exceptional tutor, best I have seen. If you really can't find a good face to face tutor I recommend you look at the Flamenco Starter Kit. There is a link to a 14 day free trial in the YT video below. His explanations of technique and the basic exercises seem perfect, he is a natural teacher, brilliant.
The videos are in Spanish but very well subtitled in English by OnlineFlamenco. For the YouTube video below just click the closed caption subtitle option in YouTube.
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England
RE: flamenco guitar courses in spain... (in reply to Mark2)
I've just signed up for another 30days free trial. I must say I like the content. And it seems they are doing pretty cool stuff. I think my favourite part though is the candid interviews they do. Chicuelo is good mileage for an interview. Some really insightful stuff he's taking about.
Haven't checked much of the lessons yet. Due to time. Which is why I've only done a free trial. Simply not enough time to get my moneys worth. I think for a beginner who has time it is great.
RE: flamenco guitar courses in spain... (in reply to Goldwinghai)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Goldwinghai
I can you about my experience. I have taken online lessons via Skype with US based teacher as well as with Spain based teachers. I also have taken guitar lessons at Taller Flamenco and Cristina Heeren Foundation in Seville, and Carmen de las Cuevas in Granada; six times @ Carmen Cuevas, each time from 3 to 6 weeks, four times at Taller Flamenco, 2 to 4 week each. All lessons were 5 days a week, 60-80 minutes each day. All my teachers were high caliber professionals. The main difference was the total immersion in flamenco when I attended schools in Seville or Granada. After classes I would hang out with other students, make plans where to go for flamenco shows. There is La Carboneria in Seville which is free. In Granada there are many venues too, such as La Chumbera, Teatro Isabel La Catolica, AlboreA, etc. I generally go to the show once a week, €12 - 20. Initially I did not know any Spanish so it was a little difficult in the dance accompaniment class, but not so in the guitar class. Now my Spanish is better, I enjoy the classes even more. My guitar level is intermediate/advanced but at my age I do not expect to improve much more. Learning flamenco in Spain is my “excuse” for vacation which I do twice a year. I also started taking flamenco dance lessons a year ago. It was just for health and coordination, but it turned out to be lots of fun. I hope the information is helpful to you.
Nice to hear from you! This mirrors some of my experience over the past decade. I had lessons in London with Francisco Antonio which really gave me a basic foundation, however I felt I made leaps forward when I spent weeks at Taller flamenco in Seville and Carmen Cuevas in Granada, as well as having a lot of fun and meeting cool people, etc. Even just hanging with other aficionados and guitarists during the month long guitar building course with Stephen Hill increased my appreciation of both the instrument and the art form. I met a good teacher online during the pandemic in Berlin who really helped me after a stagnant few years of self study but I don’t really have the patience for zoom lessons anymore!
I broke my leg a few years ago which meant I didn’t join family ski holidays in February, so for a while I used that time to go to Jerez, Seville, etc but now I’m not married (and have a new gf) I’ve spent the past couple of Feb half term hols in the Canary Islands instead. Definitely feel like I’m missing something so hope to go to san lucar next year and maybe check this paco Serrano course in October if I can overcome my cynicism at their marketing approach.
RE: flamenco guitar courses in spain... (in reply to Stu)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stu
I've just signed up for another 30days free trial. I must say I like the content. And it seems they are doing pretty cool stuff. I think my favourite part though is the candid interviews they do. Chicuelo is good mileage for an interview. Some really insightful stuff he's taking about.
Haven't checked much of the lessons yet. Due to time. Which is why I've only done a free trial. Simply not enough time to get my moneys worth. I think for a beginner who has time it is great.
I signed up during the pandemic and the weekly lessons were pretty good, though like all things like this you need to have the time to commit to this.
Printable Version
New Messages
No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages
Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages
Locked w/o New Messages
Post New Thread