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RE: I change my opinion about Vicent... (in reply to Ricardo)
One day I want to hear the tale of tale of the Flemish flamencos. It’s like the the prequel series to flamemco before Bilbo Baggins left the shire and moved to Spain to make jazzmenco
Posts: 1937
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton
RE: I change my opinion about Vicent... (in reply to devilhand)
Part of the hype is technical, another part is that they've created their own, recognisable style and tone, and they've been consistently producing new music, with some real gems. There aren't many of those around. I can probably count them on one hand. Niño Josele, as good as he is, I'd never recognise.
Posts: 2699
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England
RE: I change my opinion about Vicent... (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
I don't get the hype around V. Amigo or A. Rey on the foro.
There's a lot you 'don't get'
It's not just one the foro.
If you like the music or not..... It's still possible to 'understand the hype' and understand exactly what those two artists can do and have achieved. And in the genre you claim to be interested in.
Whether it's to your taste or not, if you can't understand why people regard those two players so highly, then you have some thinking to do.
Posts: 1945
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: I change my opinion about Vicent... (in reply to devilhand)
As good? Subjective. As successful in creating a career as a soloist today? Name 'em.
VA is way ahead of Antonio but he's been around longer and has more recordings. AR is working hard to take his place among the world's best known flamenco solo players.
The music BUSINESS is full of hype. But both those guys can really play. And they have written a lot of music. Have you seen either one live? I sat ten feet in front of Antonio Rey a month ago while he proved(again) he's one of the best guitar players on the planet. The best flameco player? Again, subjective.
quote:
ORIGINAL: devilhand
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stu
Don't forget him?? In what sense?
Is he relevant here?
Or are we just naming guitarists?
The point is there are other flamenco guitarists out there who are as good as V. Amigo. I don't get the hype around V. Amigo or A. Rey on the foro.
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: I change my opinion about Vicent... (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
ORIGINAL: devilhand
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stu
Don't forget him?? In what sense?
Is he relevant here?
Or are we just naming guitarists?
The point is there are other flamenco guitarists out there who are as good as V. Amigo. I don't get the hype around V. Amigo or A. Rey on the foro.
“As good as”?? You base that on that video where he is trying to play Tomatito’s falsetas?? Why not skip the middle man and admit you like Tomatito’s music better? (Unless you are clueless that was Tomatito’s falseta).
RE: I change my opinion about Vicent... (in reply to Stu)
Well said, Stu!
If old school is the main inspiration, and you have only a few years of flamenco under your belt, then it might take many years to appreciate who VA is. It was the opposite for me, Jucal was my second flamenco album after Luzia. I didn’t understand a lick of it but I was still obsessed. Hated old school!
RE: I change my opinion about Vicent... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
You base that on that video where he is trying to play Tomatito’s falsetas??
That was just one example.
quote:
it might take many years to appreciate who VA is.
No doubt V.Amigo is a monster player. But that doesnt make him a good composer. Listen to his track Roma. A bunch of arpegiated chords. Nothing special. A lot of people seem to like it. To each his own.
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: I change my opinion about Vicent... (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
That was just one example.
Bad example. You don’t know what you are talking about…clearly. Get a flamenco guitar, stop trolling about topics you don’t yet understand. In case you missed the point (of course you did), someone actually learned something here and developed an appreciation and taste for something they had not before. Get a clue, and stop the typical negativity, show some respect. Take some classes, learn something and stop talking over other people trying to develop the right way.
RE: I change my opinion about Vicent... (in reply to JasonM)
quote:
Hated old school!
What did you hate about it? I get that modern guitarists are much more skilled nowadays and that most people don't like listening to old scratchy recordings. Did it have something to do with that?
RE: I change my opinion about Vicent... (in reply to Norman Paul Kliman)
Hey Norm,
Hate is a strong word! I’m not exactly sure what about old school didn’t appeal. It was not just all about technique , but the modern compositions just resonated more.
Also I was a young 20 years old at the time and just starting out in flamenco, burned out from classical guitar, wanting to play super modern advanced stuff, all with a teacher that was incredibly traditional (To this guy Nino Ricardo is Jazz ) So kinda drive me nuts and left me bit frustrated
RE: I change my opinion about Vicent... (in reply to JasonM)
Hi Jason,
Thanks for the explanation. I didn’t care for most old stuff at first, either. In fact, it took me a few years to warm up to any kind of cante. In my case, "hate" was pretty close to the truth of the matter, ha-ha. It sounded like overblown drunken opera to me. The first flamenco that really shook me up was the bulería Patio jerezano from Manolo Sanlúcar’s album Recital flamenco. Made me want to howl at the moon or something. Eventually, I somehow discovered Melchor and started buying recordings of Pastora just to hear the guitar. But I didn’t like her singing at all.
RE: I change my opinion about Vicent... (in reply to Norman Paul Kliman)
quote:
Let me guess: He liked Perico del Lunar, right?
Close!
Drunken opera is a good description. I wonder if any of us westerners/Europeans non gitanos actually enjoyed cante from the get go? Pretty sure I also went from modern canteaors to older. In fact thanks for hosting great info on your website!
RE: I change my opinion about Vicent... (in reply to JasonM)
My pleasure, Jason. The reactions are sometimes pretty strong. People seem to have more of a sense of adventure about what they’ll put in their mouth (food) than in their ears.
When I was teaching English in Madrid, I had a British colleague about my age whose mother was from Alicante, and he spoke Spanish without the slightest accent. Just flawless, with all the lightning-fast wit and charm of native speakers (in the best of cases, of course). We were kind of in awe of him. One day, I had him listen to Camarón’s “Otra galaxia.” He was silent until the end, and then angrily shouted, You mean they pay this guy to sing like that?!!! I wouldn’t have been as surprised if he’d reacted that way to Agujetas, but Camarón? Personally, he’s not among my top five favorites, but come on: his singing is like ice cream!
Posts: 2699
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England
RE: I change my opinion about Vicent... (in reply to Stu)
quote:
“As good as”?? You base that on that video where he is trying to play Tomatito’s falsetas?? Why not skip the middle man and admit you like Tomatito’s music better? (Unless you are clueless that was Tomatito’s falseta).
haha. hey devilhand. Here's VA at 16 playing at least 1 Tomatito falseta better than nino. maybe better than tomatito! ahha at 16! NOW do you get it?
For your own good, listen to De mi Corazon al Aire! Vivencias Imaginadas, Cuidad de Las Ideas. even Un Momento en el Sonido.
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: I change my opinion about Vicent... (in reply to Stu)
Josele used to play very much like Tomatito in general, but I remember after Vicente introduced this “romantic” way to accompany the palos with Remedios Amaya, Jose Merce, and soon Pele (he used to do it differently, more aggressive), I realized this “suave” toque for the cante was getting traction when Josele recorded this album. It is a very obvious change of style and inspired by Vicente:
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: I change my opinion about Vicent... (in reply to Norman Paul Kliman)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Norman Paul Kliman
My pleasure, Jason. The reactions are sometimes pretty strong. People seem to have more of a sense of adventure about what they’ll put in their mouth (food) than in their ears.
When I was teaching English in Madrid, I had a British colleague about my age whose mother was from Alicante, and he spoke Spanish without the slightest accent. Just flawless, with all the lightning-fast wit and charm of native speakers (in the best of cases, of course). We were kind of in awe of him. One day, I had him listen to Camarón’s “Otra galaxia.” He was silent until the end, and then angrily shouted, You mean they pay this guy to sing like that?!!! I wouldn’t have been as surprised if he’d reacted that way to Agujetas, but Camarón? Personally, he’s not among my top five favorites, but come on: his singing is like ice cream!
My friends from Bolivia got into flamenco as kids and sing with the type of quejio the Gypsy kings do, obviously copying voice “afilla” and such, copying Camaron etc. When they were young doing local gigs in their home town, they performed at some venue, had the place packed and people dancing, a big hit. At the end when they went to get paid the owner of the venue said “you actually want me to pay for THAT?? You sing like a Frog!!”.
This sound is an aesthetic that is going back to Planeta and Fillo discussing the issue of vocal quality in the 1830’s account, and hence the name voice “afilla”. My personal first encounter with cante was Carmen Amaya with Sabicas. The voice and footwork were both “noisy” and exotic, but off putting as I couldn’t hear the guitar well. Later I got into collecting Paco de Lucia albums, guided by a discography in Guitar magazine by “Marcos” (London). He describes Camaron and paco relationship as recording artists. I purchased Cada Vez que Nos Miramos, and with the text guide about forms, I totally got into right away. Still a favorite album today, my favorite cantes on there, Solea de Serneta, Fandango de Gloria, Siguiriyas, buleria with the “llamarme otro doctor”, etc. Maybe because I had taste for heavy metal singers etc., I don’t know why but I got the whole thing right away how the guitar and voice worked together. Then I found the live ablum in Germany with Cepero and Maria Vargas (paco played guajiras etc, Festival Flamenco), and realized Cepero was even BETTER than PDL at following the woman singer. I had an opera singer girl friend at the time and shared with her Maria’s buleria and fandango, and she thought it was good singing. Then the different singers on Tauromagia, el “Moro” aka Indio Gitano and i soon discovered Nuñez.
So I very much liked it right away, and of course Carmen Amaya was not a “great cantaora”, so it was understandable my first impression was a little not fair. But since those early days i have gravitated to MUCH older singers. I like Rafael Moreno and Niño de La isla these days.
RE: I change my opinion about Vicent... (in reply to metalhead)
OK so I just listened to Vicentes new album, what a departure!. It is very jazzy sounding, but thats not a bad thing. I still really like it though and plan to have a listen to it in my listening room to properly digest it. I also really like his album Poeta, even if it's only inspired by flamenco.
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