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RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions?   You are logged in as Guest
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estebanana

Posts: 9396
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RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to Ricardo

Ricardo- F# frequency 92.50 - second fret on bass E string. You arrive at this by using a program like ( I think it’s called Spectrum Analyzer ) you hold the guitar with the strings damped and tap on it in front of the mic. Then you take a sample and the program shows you the peak resonances and gives the frequency. It’s easy to identify the main body resonance because it shows as a peak is a fairly predictable area on the frequency graph. The main air resonance of a regular sized classical of flamenco is in the range of F to G# and occasionally A ( which is dangerously high)

The median is F# to G and ideally probably about halfway in between because then the main air res isn’t sitting on a note in the scale.

The Feedback frequency you’re talking about shows up as a back frequency- not quite as important, but the basic idea is that there’s a main air body resonance, a separate top resonance and a back resonance. You don’t want the back, top or main body resonances to be the same because then they set each other off sympathetically, which is messy.

The other way to understand this is to hold the guitar upside down and pinch the transverse brace through the sound hole and cover the sound hole with your fist. Easier with strings off. Then crisply tap on the tie block of the bridge and hear the note. That’s the main body / air resonance frequency. It’s probably close to F# or G typically. Put capo on one of your guitars and pluck the F# then tap on a different guitar while blocking the sound hole and pinching the transverse brace ( the sound be close to the sound hole)

This means that guitar makers in 1920 could understand the body resonance without having a computer program to look at frequencies. Then they also knew that they wanted the back to have a higher pitched ‘tap tone’ than the top and body res - it’s pretty easy to hear if the back is the same pitch as the top you’ll get pitch coupling, but the rub is that attack and decay will happen at different rates between the back and top, which sets up a clash of secondary and terciary partials, not to mention higher partials which are super complex and messy sounding.

So the clarity in a guitar comes from a judicious separation of these natural resonances created from air volume in the guitar and the flex of the back and top. This is ridiculously complicated stuff and the old guys solved it by thinking the back being pitched higher than the top.

Today there is a lot of chatter about main air resonance among people who want to chatter about the guitar as a piece of acoustic equipment, and some of these blokes make vague generalizations about guitars based on the main air resonance by saying oddball things like “ I only prefer guitars with a G resonance, and I tell dealers not to show me guitars with other resonances.”

Yes people are that bizarre.

So the point to remember is raising the action emphasizes the partials a little bit more, but often breaks down the haptic response to doing rasgeuado that would satisfy a flamenco player. And vice versa lowering de-emphasizes the partials and generally makes the guitar more rageo friendly.

So back to the OP original question: I want a cypress guitar that would be better for a blend of classical and flamenco, what do I do?

And you said it’s the Goldilocks guitar that is rare or doesn’t exist, which is more or less true. But you can get close to this ideal blend by simply raising the action set up of a cypress flamenco to classical set up. If you select the cypress guitar carefully you may get a good balance of both worlds.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2024 1:41:36
 
estebanana

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RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to Ricardo

.b



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2024 2:59:47
 
Ricardo

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RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to Echi

quote:

There's not a clear way to reach that result and many guitars just don't have it.


Segovia used this guitar and said plainly, Bach “polyphony”, the voices came out clear. All it is, is as I said, he pulled the bridge WAY the hell back compared to other makers, so the melody above is a hair flat above the bass, and better lines up with true harmonics of a single bass note, so sounds sweeter being flat of equal tempered (unless like me you insist on yanking the string hard toward the nut to keep it in REAL tune). This sounds cool for Baroque shyte because it sounds like exotic, or “well tempered” or something. I did not know this until I measured it. The conde 1973 has zero compensation, 12 is exactly in the middle. Hauser is like 3+mm LONGER 12 to bridge.

If players knew this, and then mess with with vibrato and HEAR the concept of the overtone harmonics being FLAT compared to Equal tempered tuning, then they might understand what is going on there. If you check the compensation with other makers that supposedly have the “same quality as the Hauser”, I would not be surprised if it exactly this.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2024 10:55:44
 
RobF

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RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

If you check the compensation with other makers that supposedly have the “same quality as the Hauser”, I would not be surprised if it exactly this.


You know, that's a very good point. One that is seldom discussed, actually.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2024 11:54:24
 
hxwhf72752003

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From: Hunan, China

RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to estebanana

I used to have a Gerundino Fernandez Hijo 2017(spruce/cypress). When I played it for the first time, I was struck by its loud and deep sound, and at the same time I noticed that it had an extra-long sustain that was not part of the cypress property. I would recommend Gerundino to you, both as a father and as a son.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2024 18:31:21
 
hxwhf72752003

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From: Hunan, China

RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to hxwhf72752003

Here is my Gerundino‘s video. I think even though the sound is weakened by the phone recording, you can still hear some interesting features
【【弗拉门戈吉他】翻弹Diego del Morao的Bulerias】 https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV17t421a7Mm/?share_source=copy_web&vd_source=543497b797fdd19d04afa0542da46580
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2024 18:39:20
 
Echi

 

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RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to estebanana

I own a Gerundino negra but in the past I had a couple of blancas (an old one and a recent one). Very nice guitars; I agree they fit the purpose.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 25 2024 12:37:49
 
estebanana

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RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to RobF

I kind of doubt it’s just compensation

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 25 2024 13:04:57
 
RobF

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RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to estebanana

Of course it isn't. I don't think there is any one overarching defining element, be it bracing pattern, plantilla, choice of wood, etc. It's kind of unfortunate that so many conversations often focus on one component or another whenever discussing a guitar's tonal response (with bracing patterns being the biggest culprit). I found Ricardo's point interesting because compensation is seldom (if ever) brought up as something that can influence a player's perception of tone.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 25 2024 13:52:05
 
Morante

 

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RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to hxwhf72752003

quote:

father and as a son.


Father sì, son no.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 25 2024 16:10:45
 
hxwhf72752003

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From: Hunan, China

RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to Morante

Maybe you are right. But fasther's guitars are so expensive that not everyone can afford it. I think son's guitars have high cost-effective. I bought a nice Gerundino Hijo from a guitarist in Almeria for 1800 euros and I think the sound of the guitar deserves a higher price.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 25 2024 17:21:35
 
estebanana

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RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to RobF

quote:

ORIGINAL: RobF

Of course it isn't. I don't think there is any one overarching defining element, be it bracing pattern, plantilla, choice of wood, etc. It's kind of unfortunate that so many conversations often focus on one component or another whenever discussing a guitar's tonal response (with bracing patterns being the biggest culprit). I found Ricardo's point interesting because compensation is seldom (if ever) brought up as something that can influence a player's perception of tone.



It’s an interesting observation and Ricardo has excellent ears. Compensation that leaves the note slightly sharp in some sections of the fingerboard could feel like tension is created, but playing flat can be slightly corrected for intonation if you play like Ricardo who works to intonate the interval by finger placement.

You can fix flat notes with his technique, but you can’t fix notes in which the interval starts out too sharp. This does have something to do with satisfaction in intonation, but not the whole pie.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 25 2024 18:34:43
 
RobF

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RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to estebanana

Ricardo has spoken about his dislike of compensation in the past because he also pushes sharp notes flat. He posted a video about this a couple of years back. At any rate, I suspect we are in agreement here, in that there is no single defining element which determines a guitar's character, be it bracing pattern, body resonance, or whatever. Or at least I think we agree.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 25 2024 19:28:17
 
estebanana

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RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to RobF

I think we can agree, and agree that Ricardo is a pusher.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 26 2024 10:33:24
 
Ricardo

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RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to estebanana

quote:

It’s an interesting observation and Ricardo has excellent ears.


I have only made the observation of one type of guitar (Hauser 2). My real point was I was making a conjecture that could be systematically RULED OUT, by simple measurement taking (to save time, someone please measure the difference of string to 12, and 12 to bridge of a ROMANILLOS, since that was the only instrument mentioned that is “like a Hauser”). That is a starting place. The other thing, maybe you guys missed it that might go with that situation is the finish of the TOP vs the sides and back, is unusually THIN by comparison. Maybe for you guys that is “standard” in some cases with no special results, however, I found IT, like the EXTRA compensation, to be a unique feature of the instruments I have handled named “Hauser” (all Hauser 2 by the way, i have not tried Hauser 1). All other guitars I have handled have essentially the same thickness and type of finish on the back and sides as the tops, regardless if FP shellac, lacquer, nitro, poly urethane, etc. Also, I don’t believe Hauser 2 is FP shellac.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 26 2024 12:15:16
 
quartpot

 

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RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to estebanana

What we really need to know is 1.What construction is likely to give close to F#
2. How to adjust the frequency post construction
I have a 1980 Rafael Diaz classical (spruce and IRW)which, using visual analyser, puts it dead on F#.
So how did he do it?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 26 2024 22:28:14
 
estebanana

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RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to estebanana

What everyone really has to understand is that I have a Blanca I built and kept due to a dispute with the guy who ordered it. I set it up with a higher saddle and put on a special set of strings so the guitar is tuned in the cello range to play the bass parts of the music we play in my classical guitar ensemble.

I play a blanca that’s being used a classical guitar, because I raised the saddle. It does the job just fine and has enough juice and sustain, but not too much. It’s quite Goldilocks range 😆

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 27 2024 1:22:35
 
estebanana

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RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to quartpot

quote:

ORIGINAL: quartpot

What we really need to know is 1.What construction is likely to give close to F#
2. How to adjust the frequency post construction
I have a 1980 Rafael Diaz classical (spruce and IRW)which, using visual analyser, puts it dead on F#.
So how did he do it?



Large body, not over built usually puts the guitar in the F# zone - that’s not a trick. The difficult one is heavily constructed guitars with laminated sides with low air res. But that’s above my pay grade. I’ve done it, but again it’s because the body had big air volume ( I think)

Large body, thin sides, thinish back, but pitched higher than top. You can get carried away with overthinking this, but the guitar just became bigger and bigger until it hit that size that naturally lands in the F# zone. Because that’s where successive generations of trial and error in luthiers building to this size comes to a general consensus that this ratio of body size and depth holds enough air to get an averaging out of a size that consistently produces a good guitar.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 27 2024 1:35:24
 
Richard Jernigan

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RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to Ricardo

1973 Romanillos #407 is 325mm from 12th fret to bridge saddle, 323mm from 12th fret to nut, on both 1st and 6th strings. The strings on it now are true. The 12th fret harmonic is an octave above the open string, according both to my ear and to a cheap D'Addario headstock tuner. The tuner is supposed to be accurate to one cent, but I have no means to check it.

Furthermore, the 1st string fretted at the 12th is equal to the harmonic, both to my ear and to the tuner. The 6th may be very slightly flat fretted at the 12th, but not obviously so.

My understanding has been that the setback of the bridge is meant to compensate for the increase in fretted string tension as you go up the fretboard. The first string is only a fraction of a millimeter above the first fret, but it's 3mm above the 12th on the Romanillos. So the string is stretched more at the higher frets than it is at the lower ones, tending to raise the pitch. The setback is a greater fraction of the sounding string length at the higher frets, tending to lower the pitch, so the two effects are supposed to cancel out. They do on the Romanillos, at least at the twelfth fret.

#407 is not the 407th guitar Romanillos made. It is the 7th one of the 4th design iteration. He changed designs soon after #407, on Bream's famous #501, maybe even the very next one according to a couple of expert sources.

#407 is "modeled on" a 1950 Hauser. #501 was made from drawings of an earlier Hauser which belonged to Sergio Abreu. The top of #407 is flat. Romanillos remarked that the top on #501 was domed. He "wanted to get more tension into the guitar."

I haven't played any other Romanillos, but I have heard #501 up close, played by Bream in a hotel room. Allowing for Bream's superior tone quality, they seemed similar to me.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 27 2024 1:43:16
 
Echi

 

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RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to estebanana

the 5th design used by Romanillos is actually the one of the guitar played by Julian Bream and it will become is standard design.
As you point correctly out, the main difference between the Hauser owned by Abreu and the Romanillos is the "drop" of the top behind the bridge (and then a "dome" on the top; Hauser I kept adding a slight dome just later than 1940.
The domed top added a certain tension to the top (quite thin also for the standard of Hauser I) which Bream liked... If I am not wrong the box freq was anyway around F sharp (didn't check in the book here, I just go by heart).
Your guitar should have a slight dome too though as some Hauser II made in the fifties.

Coming back to the main topic.
The thing of the box frequency is not relevant as Estebana pointed out.
My '64 Conde is F sharp and the trebles ring. My 59 Conde is G to G sharp and the trebles ring as well....
The matter of the bridge is not the point of this 3d either.
For sure you can adjust things raising the saddle and using a different kind of strings but this doesn't change the nature of the guitar (I mean the Notre transient, it's core etc.)..
The neck angle/bridge height is one of the many aspects of the geometry of the guitar but it doesn't make a guitar sounds like Hauser or a Santos Hernandez by itself.
IMHO we are speaking of different things
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 27 2024 10:47:12
 
Manitas de Lata

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RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to estebanana

why not go to some makers and ask them if can do what you want or not ?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 27 2024 10:57:10
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

1973 Romanillos #407 is 325mm from 12th fret to bridge saddle, 323mm from 12th fret to nut, on both 1st and 6th strings.


Well, there you go. Thank you for taking the time sir. To be clear again, that difference of 2mm is significant as the Hauser is about 3mm and my 73 Sobrinos is ZERO. I was saying that this is one of the possibilities that might explain the “elusive quality” that players are noticing about “tone”. Now other factors can be looked at closer as well, such as FINISH, as I mentioned. In the end I am taking Echi’s word for it that YOUR Romanillos and MY Hauser 2 even have this “elusive” quality he is referring to (it might not even be the case, maybe they are just “good” guitars that have a lot of compensation).

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 27 2024 11:21:13
 
estebanana

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RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to estebanana

Ricardo.

Isn’t your Conde really long scale? Do I remember it’s a 670mm scale?

The Faulk Hypothesis:

Longer scales with low saddles, long string length and low action over the fretboard require less intonation compensation at the saddle. And may in some cases depending on the geometry of the overall set up may work without compensation.

I’ve seen a Manuel de la Chica with no compensation and it played ok, maybe not optimal, but at 655mm scale. Very low set up.

The hypothesis is, longer string has a lower degree angle when pressed to the fingerboard, with an already low action over the fretboard. Plus a low saddle, presumably 8mm high or less. A classical action is typically 4mm at 12th fret and 3mm clearance on treble side ( Richard’s JR is a normal example) and with a 650mm scale and added 2mm of compensation which equals a 652mmm string length.

A 652mm string length with a high saddle and a higher action over the fretboard will create a steeper angle on the string when pushed to the fingerboard. The crux of the hypothesis is that this creates an an exponentially increased amount of tension in the fretted string, causing it to bend more and stretch less than a longer string length with a low altitude over the fret board and lower saddle.

The 18mm longer string at a lower angle of deflection needs less compensation at saddle.

I’ll leave it to the guys who can to calculus to ponder this.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 28 2024 2:53:47
 
estebanana

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RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to estebanana

I’m still not entertaining the idea that compensation is the magic ticket that makes these special guitars. 95% of the flamenco/ classical guitars on the market have compensation. It’s just that some makers impart a quality into the guitar that is part of the way they build.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 28 2024 2:57:37
 
Estevan

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RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to estebanana

quote:

It’s just that some makers impart a quality into the guitar that is part of the way they build.

From a similar discussion some years ago:

"While reductionist scientific analyses may shed a little light on guitar making, the instrument is sufficiently complex that I believe luthiery will remain an art for the foreseeable future."
- RNJ

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 29 2024 16:53:11
 
Richard Jernigan

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From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to Echi

quote:

ORIGINAL: Echi

Your guitar should have a slight dome too though as some Hauser II made in the fifties.



Looking both perpendicular to the strings and parallel to them, the Romanillos top appears perfectly flat on the string side of the bridge. Applying a straightedge on the other side of the bridge, the top slopes slightly downward toward the heel, though it is not especially noticeable when just looking. Also behind the bridge, the center seam is very slightly higher, rising in a gentle curve above the treble and bass edges.

Out of curiosity I measured the compensation of the 2009 Abel Garcia. It's 325.5mm from the nut to the 12th fret, 328.5mm from the 12th fret to the bridge saddle. It is a very nice guitar, but it sounds nothing like the Romanillos. It has a far more complex bracing system. The box sizes of both instruments are slightly smaller than, for example, Ramirez classicals, but they are about the same as Hausers.

I measured the resonant frequencies of all my guitars a few years back, both classical and flamenco. I can't find the results at the moment, but the only one that falls outside the F#-G range is a 1991 Manuel Contreras Sr. spruce/Brazilian "doble tapa" which is somewhere between G and A. It's bass is a little weaker than the other classicals.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 29 2024 19:29:59
 
elias

 

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RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to estebanana

Really fascinating discussion so far.

If I asked a luthier to build me a classical that had this kind of hollow sound would it be possible?


I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here asking about a classical guitar with a flamenco bite but I can't shake off the notion that classicals tend to have the sound they have because classical players and their audience want guitars to sound like inoffensive pianos.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 29 2024 23:55:22
 
estebanana

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RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to elias

quote:

ORIGINAL: elias

Really fascinating discussion so far.

If I asked a luthier to build me a classical that had this kind of hollow sound would it be possible?


I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here asking about a classical guitar with a flamenco bite but I can't shake off the notion that classicals tend to have the sound they have because classical players and their audience want guitars to sound like inoffensive pianos.


I’m hearing the sound system or the PA with settings that’s making the guitar sound more crunchy than it actually would be if played un-amplified. So no, I don’t think that can be built in. In my opinion that is an unappealing sound, it’s very harsh, coupled with a lot of long samey sounding mediocre falsetas are quite boring 🥱

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2024 2:01:32
 
Echi

 

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RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to estebanana

That particular guitar should be a Francisco Sanchez... it's clear sounding but as Estebana points out, is too easy to break at the stroke: a higher action should sort this aspect out.
These kind of guitars are quite similar sounding to the guitars made by Paco Rey (also used by Can Wang) and somehow inspired to the sound of Reyes, but less round.
Another option if you (as many) cannot afford a Reyes, are some old Beliido guitars.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2024 12:44:10
 
Andy Culpepper

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From: NY, USA

RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to estebanana

I haven't checked the old Foro in a while but someone told me about this thread so I'll chime in. Cypress is my favorite wood for both classical and flamenco guitars and I've made a number of Cypress classicals. Here's a nice one that ended up at GSI:




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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 2 2024 2:51:34
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