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Manitas de Lata

Posts: 664
Joined: Oct. 9 2018
 

New Generation 

Love his playing

i think he was 16 or so , here


here 20 or so


here 23 or so


no more recent stuff , strange.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 8 2023 22:57:31
 
Manitas de Lata

Posts: 664
Joined: Oct. 9 2018
 

José Manuel Martínez “El Pelirro... (in reply to Manitas de Lata

José Manuel Martínez, “El Pelirrojo”, nace en Alicante en 1998 en una familia de tradición flamenca en la que destaca su prima segunda, la cantaora “La Susi”. Sus comienzos con la guitarra surgieron a la edad de 12 años de manera autodidacta. Más tarde, a los 15 años, comienza su andadura profesional en el flamenco, trabajando con artistas como el guitarrista Juani de la Isla y la cantaora Ana Reverte, así como tocando en grandes escenarios nacionales e internaciones como el Auditorio Nacional de Madrid, entre otros.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 10 2023 0:25:00
 
12850bd

Posts: 149
Joined: Nov. 9 2006
From: australia

RE: Jose Manuel "El Pelirrojo&q... (in reply to Manitas de Lata

He does a lot of work for Guitarras Francisco Bros. If you check them out on you tube there are quite a few clips of him demonstrating some of their guitars.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 11 2023 21:38:26
 
Manitas de Lata

Posts: 664
Joined: Oct. 9 2018
 

RE: Jose Manuel "El Pelirrojo&q... (in reply to 12850bd

and those plus one or two clips more are the most recent
all the rest are much older.

its a pitty would love to see more from him , seems to have full package such for a young age...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 12 2023 9:51:12
 
orsonw

Posts: 1958
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Jose Manuel "El Pelirrojo&q... (in reply to Manitas de Lata

quote:

seems to have full package such for a young age...


I think you'll find that most flamenco players who reach a high level are already very good by the time they're teenage/twenty. It's normal to already be professional by this age.
Paco de Lucia, Tomatito, Vicente Amigo, etc.. Try to find one for whom this is not case.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 12 2023 11:21:37
 
Manitas de Lata

Posts: 664
Joined: Oct. 9 2018
 

RE: Jose Manuel "El Pelirrojo&q... (in reply to orsonw

i also think that

but its a shame that doesnt have a record or more content
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 12 2023 11:40:12
 
orsonw

Posts: 1958
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Jose Manuel "El Pelirrojo&q... (in reply to Manitas de Lata

quote:

ORIGINAL: but its a shame that doesnt have a record or more content


He's probably doing his time working at tablaos. E.g. he was at Las Carboneras in Madrid, probably where he picked up his Yerai Cortes style.

And of course many excellent working players aren't solistas and never make a record.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 12 2023 12:04:26
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14984
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Jose Manuel "El Pelirrojo&q... (in reply to Manitas de Lata

quote:

but its a shame that doesnt have a record or more content


Flamenco turns out to be a huge world of education that is all consuming. This is not like Rock guitar or something where the new kid on the block makes an album, and then a year later after the “tour” the record company is demanding the follow up creation. No, this music is so rich that when young people appear on the scene and start working, there is not much time for displaying “new” material. It is a lot of refining what has already been presented. Singers, dancers, and guitarists. People like Paco or Vicente are doing something very rare within the genre…that is continually reinventing things and presenting material. Nuñez tried to provide an outlet for new guitarists with his recording projects (Nueva escuela), and after a generation of players put out interesting new material, they all disappeared…or rather went BACK to the traditional practice. So stop putting false expectations on artists like that.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 12 2023 12:14:00
 
JasonM

Posts: 2081
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Jose Manuel "El Pelirrojo&q... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Flamenco turns out to be a huge world of education that is all consuming. This is not like Rock guitar or something where the new kid on the block makes an album, and then a year later after the “tour” the record company is demanding the follow up creation. No, this music is so rich that when young people appear on the scene and start working, there is not much time for displaying “new” material. It is a lot of refining what has already been presented. Singers, dancers, and guitarists. People like Paco or Vicente are doing something very rare within the genre…that is continually reinventing things and presenting material. Nuñez tried to provide an outlet for new guitarists with his recording projects (Nueva escuela), and after a generation of players put out interesting new material, they all disappeared…or rather went BACK to the traditional practice. So stop putting false expectations on artists like that.


I was also thinking something similar. There have been so many young guitarist that are "up and coming" and then after one solo album they are off the solo map, unlike Paco and the big hitters. They could have gone in other directions within flamenco, but also maybe they dont in fact have a steady stream of good material, or novel ideas, to record another album with. But like Ricardo says, flamenco is different than Rock
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 12 2023 17:27:18
 
Manitas de Lata

Posts: 664
Joined: Oct. 9 2018
 

RE: Jose Manuel "El Pelirrojo&q... (in reply to JasonM

of course , nothing against... this isnt a "figth" just some views..

in this case , not general , his "recent" content it is none or nothing , like where hes playing (?) , just that .
Where do you go if you want to see him playing?

rather to do oneday something remark than the same stuff , and as far of records the industry changed a lot , quality or high quality its an exception.


If you see my most recent "wishlist" theres nothing new...

Diego del Gastor. El eco de unos toques - Angel Sody de Rivas

Jerónimo Maya - Pureza y solera

Niño Seve - Luna de la Judería

José Fermín Fernández - De La Unión a Córdoba

El Amir - Andalucía

Niño de Pura - Pura gloria

Tomatito - Soy flamenco

Diego (morao) , josele , Rey , are sell out
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 12 2023 19:24:13
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1639
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Jose Manuel "El Pelirrojo&q... (in reply to Manitas de Lata

El Pellirojo? Never heard of him.

Benito Bernal is awesome. Another Gen Z tocaor born in 1998.

In 2019


_____________________________

Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 13 2023 1:24:48
 
Stu

Posts: 2618
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Jose Manuel "El Pelirrojo&q... (in reply to devilhand

quote:

El Pellirojo? Never heard of him.


you have now
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 13 2023 11:27:30
 
Manitas de Lata

Posts: 664
Joined: Oct. 9 2018
 

RE: Jose Manuel "El Pelirrojo&q... (in reply to Stu

José Manuel Martínez, “El Pelirrojo”, nace en Alicante en 1998 en una familia de tradición flamenca en la que destaca su prima segunda, la cantaora “La Susi”. Sus comienzos con la guitarra surgieron a la edad de 12 años de manera autodidacta. Más tarde, a los 15 años, comienza su andadura profesional en el flamenco, trabajando con artistas como el guitarrista Juani de la Isla y la cantaora Ana Reverte, así como tocando en grandes escenarios nacionales e internaciones como el Auditorio Nacional de Madrid, entre otros.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 13 2023 12:29:03
 
Manitas de Lata

Posts: 664
Joined: Oct. 9 2018
 

RE: Jose Manuel "El Pelirrojo&q... (in reply to devilhand

Benito have a lot of recent content...
plays with a lot of "Ganas"

I think i will change this post name to "New Generation"



  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 13 2023 12:35:28
 
Manitas de Lata

Posts: 664
Joined: Oct. 9 2018
 

RE: New Generation (in reply to Manitas de Lata

ridiculous good

José Fermín Fernández

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 13 2023 12:52:38
 
Stu

Posts: 2618
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Jose Manuel "El Pelirrojo&q... (in reply to Manitas de Lata

yes interesting. Nice to see some thread with lots of young new players
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 13 2023 13:19:16
 
Manitas de Lata

Posts: 664
Joined: Oct. 9 2018
 

RE: Jose Manuel "El Pelirrojo&q... (in reply to Stu

instead of creating new post (not sure if the prize had a 2023 edition..) ill put it here

Enjoy...

Premio Solera (Solera Prize)

2021


2022 (el ciego on Cheat mode , and a young Vicente Amigo on fire)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 14 2023 0:32:51
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14984
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: New Generation (in reply to Manitas de Lata

As someone who used to have to defend modern flamenco on the internet (vast majority of the opinionated being “old schoolers” who could never help themselves but to point out that modern flamenco was “too jazzy” or “too technical”, take your pick), I have to say that this new generation as one common aspect that rubs me wrong. While they have a beautiful rhythmic expression in general, often supplying interesting twists and turns to their phrasing that I do enjoy, or rather find refreshing, it is inevitable that the expected cierres or punctuation points are drawn out, played through, or ignored entirely, producing the equivalent of a run-on sentence right up to the final remate or worse, on studio recording, a fade out. Especially in the buleria stuff, but it seems it is becoming common in general. The remates or cierres are punctuation points which are important for engagement with both other artists performing in the moment, and the audience that knows about it. This idea of delaying or diverting the expectation to a different direction was once a novel idea and worked great on certain falsetas on occasion by the modern maestros, but as a general trend it makes the music either boring, as in the narrative is lost over time, or, in my case, I am stuck feeling “unresolved” or up in the air dangling, and it doesn’t feel nice. Assuming I stick it out to the end of the piece.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 14 2023 11:56:52
 
Stu

Posts: 2618
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: New Generation (in reply to Ricardo

I agree with this here.
However, how much of this is part of our age? Like the folk before who just couldnt get onboard with the changes they'd seen develop? maybe this is our stopping point?
surely this stuff will keep evolving like all forms. and all technologies and all parts of life.

I know you've pointed out specific technical points that are integral to the communication of the music/art, which, if youre right would suggest theres a cut off point where something becomes NOT that thing anymore.

so is this that? or is this becoming an old fuddy duddy?

I dont know.

It's a big well walked subject. but still. interesting enough.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 14 2023 13:36:33
 
Manitas de Lata

Posts: 664
Joined: Oct. 9 2018
 

RE: New Generation (in reply to Ricardo

i agree , some of the players "choked" "froze" in some sections of the "cante" and specialy with the dance, but a few were good .
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 14 2023 16:10:01
 
Manitas de Lata

Posts: 664
Joined: Oct. 9 2018
 

RE: New Generation (in reply to Manitas de Lata

Jose El Ciego its a complete flamenco or neo pop folk flamenco performer
He dances well , sings well , plays very well and all with lots of personality , a happy one







  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 14 2023 20:02:46
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14984
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: New Generation (in reply to Stu

quote:

so is this that? or is this becoming an old fuddy duddy?


Of course this is part of it. Time marches on. There is likely balance that is not exposed behind the scenes. The thing I am talking about applies to SOLO guitar playing, which typically is not the driving force of the genre anyway, it is the cante and baile more so. For example there used to be two ways for singers to play with the compas but now there are three (the third being a boxed in concept, even for baile, where instead of singing “over the bar line” the guitarist is required to slow down the tempo in spots, for drama, understanding how the melody is “tied” to the compas and the singer is dragging the tonos down with it, then suddenly resume the previous tempo). This might have evolved out of a novel example by Camaron that used to do this in Tangos with Tomatito…but to “standardize” it for all palos that have compas is unusual to me. Not sure if I am “old fashioned” in this regard, because I actually learned the much older way to accompany, very late in the game. I have honestly only had the pleasure of dealing with a few singers that sing that way anymore. I learned via baile that had already been boxed in. So not being biased old or new, I recognized the artistic superiority to the “old way” and it is shame it has disappeared. Perhaps young generations might recognized the same things like me (everything is recorded historically so why not?) and have similar feelings such that a “neo-classical” period develops where certain Old methods get employed despite whatever contemporary trends.

The danger would be that if young gen players continue the run on sentence phrasing, then at some point, percussion/palmas etc, will simply ignore cierres in general, and the flamenco compas will lose a huge unique identity. If I know in advance they are not going to do punctuation, I will simply ignore what they play at all, or won’t engage with it. I can already sense the palmeros doing this by not building up with the phrases, they just play “flat” and ignore what direction the guitar moves in. I remember Yerai doing a well known phrase in a cool new off time manner and the cajon and the palmero had to turn his head away because everything was twisted…at least he brought it back in with some cierre, but when they STOP doing the closing and stay “off track”, well, the head turn away will be symbolic of the music in general. Presently it is up in the air what might happen in the future.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2023 12:08:47
 
Manitas de Lata

Posts: 664
Joined: Oct. 9 2018
 

RE: New Generation (in reply to Manitas de Lata

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2023 16:15:59
 
Manitas de Lata

Posts: 664
Joined: Oct. 9 2018
 

RE: New Generation (in reply to Manitas de Lata

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2023 16:20:42
 
Manitas de Lata

Posts: 664
Joined: Oct. 9 2018
 

RE: New Generation (in reply to Manitas de Lata

Ismael Rueda. Premio de Guitarra Certamen Flamenco Desencaja 2015

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 19 2023 20:17:54
 
Manitas de Lata

Posts: 664
Joined: Oct. 9 2018
 

RE: New Generation (in reply to Manitas de Lata

Toni Abellán, premio Composición y Guitarrista más completo en el I Concurso de guitarra flamenca

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 19 2023 20:19:47
 
Manitas de Lata

Posts: 664
Joined: Oct. 9 2018
 

RE: New Generation (in reply to Manitas de Lata

Jesús de la Estrella en el I Concurso de guitarra flamenca para jóvenes promesas Hyunday

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 19 2023 20:21:39
 
JasonM

Posts: 2081
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: New Generation (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

The remates or cierres are punctuation points


Agree, Some of these guys sound like they are almost just noodling around! When I first got into flamenco, I thought the cierre broke the flow of the music too much. Probably because I wasn’t used to this concept, but it also depended on the player. Now I’m just sort of used to it. If these new guys can omit cierre tastefully, I’m for it. But most of the time they do indeed sound like run on sentences. Especially the remate, then are you even flamenco, bro?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 20 2023 15:59:24
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14984
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: New Generation (in reply to JasonM

quote:

ORIGINAL: JasonM

quote:

The remates or cierres are punctuation points


Agree, Some of these guys sound like they are almost just noodling around! When I first got into flamenco, I thought the cierre broke the flow of the music too much. Probably because I wasn’t used to this concept, but it also depended on the player. Now I’m just sort of used to it. If these new guys can omit cierre tastefully, I’m for it. But most of the time they do indeed sound like run on sentences. Especially the remate, then are you even flamenco, bro?


The “fancy remate” was becoming a thing with tomatito, Gerardo, and Vicente generation. Like mandaito of Vicente, he does a more interesting cierre each time until the fancy one at the end (before the letra). In fact is was the “cool thing” that each guitarists was developing to put a personal stamp on, and even Paco was messing with that on Cosita buenas. But then the next gen comes along and ignores that completely with the run on sentence thing. As I said, in some falsetas it is engaging and cool, a novel idea. But when it is the entire piece, that is the issue, for me anyway.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 20 2023 18:23:14
 
Manitas de Lata

Posts: 664
Joined: Oct. 9 2018
 

RE: New Generation (in reply to Ricardo

ehehe

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2024 1:27:59
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