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Stu

Posts: 2618
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

Nail shape for different guitar tech... 

Any thoughts on this matter?

Sometimes I file and find a particularly nice shape. That seems to suddenly improve for example my picado. So I think great this is it!
Then when I play some arpeggios or tremolo (just random examples) I find that that nail shape is too short for those techs. Or at least too short for the way I've learned to play them (that other technique)

I guess the question is general. How do you manage nail shape so as all techniques are happy?

Change nail shape? Or change technique?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 13 2023 19:55:32
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Nail shape for different guitar ... (in reply to Stu

compromise.

and/or file for my weakest technique!

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 13 2023 20:34:24
 
Stu

Posts: 2618
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Nail shape for different guitar ... (in reply to mark indigo

Yeah makes sense I suppose. I think that's kind of what I end up doing mostly
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 14 2023 8:25:32
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14993
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Nail shape for different guitar ... (in reply to Stu

The shape should not change. I agree that longer might feel better for arpegio/tremolo. The shape should be a flat filed angle, meaning don’t round or contour your nail to the tip. You should have more white material on either one side or both sides compared to the middle (depending on the ramp or if straight across). I have a ramp going up away from thumb on index, and a ramp going up away from pinky on the ring, but middle is essentially straight across. Now I say flat or “straight” referring to a 2 dimensional plane, but the nail is 3 dimensional. The third dimensional arc is ideal such that on the middle finger, for example, you rest the flesh on the string until two points contact the string. As you traverse the 2D plane, the string travels the arc along route until the two points converge and release somewhere along the flat line 2d plane, near the middle of the arc. Some people don’t have a good arc in the 3D so they have trouble actually setting up the plant on flesh and two points on the nail. For these folks I recommend use CA glue, as it bends the nail after drying into that nice 3d Arc that you need for good tone. The length depends on how steep you tilt the arc into the file but the file, again should only be filing FLAT in 2D.

If you have a ramp, the idea is you only have one contact point on the low side of the ramp, that releases, again, somewhere along that arc. Why do I use opposite ramps on index and ring? Because when I bend my fingers the two fingers curl inward toward the palm at opposite angles, were as middle finger moves straight down. I have noted some classical players, unlike flamencos play with a straight wrist, such that relative to the strings, the fingers always attack at an angle, never straight on, so they will necessarily ramp fingers all the same direction.

Here you can read opinion from a convert on foro, that went from no nails to what I suggested at some point.

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=256919&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=&tmode=&smode=&s=#257457

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 14 2023 11:25:10
 
Stu

Posts: 2618
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Nail shape for different guitar ... (in reply to Ricardo

Thanks ricardo, read that on the go and couldn't work out what you meant 2d/3d world but upon reading at my desk focused its clear.

My 3d arc is kinda an arc at each side but flattens off in the middle. like a plateau.

My index ramps towards the middle. my ring ramps towards the middle. but my middle finger until now has a slight ramp toward my ring. i my try a more rounded shape as you do.

It's interesting. I had all these nail questions early on. but found some peace on the matter. Only now, as im playing a lot and improving and trying to improve picado speed that these nail questions and the refinement of the nails has come back up.

i cant seem to make peace with the straight ramp to a sharp point. as opposed to ramp with a rounded point.
rounded point at the top of the ramp seems to make sense in aiding the string passing over that point. sharp point feels like it would snag the string.

I will experiment
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 15 2023 12:36:25
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14993
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Nail shape for different guitar ... (in reply to Stu

quote:

my try a more rounded shape as you do.


I never said I did a “round shape” of anything. If you mean the “arc” is round, that is the the way the nail physically is as attached to the bed when viewing like the finger tip is heading toward your eyeball. The nail edge is a 2D arc that extends backwards (invisibly) into a 3rd dimension that contributes to nail LENGTH. If you tilt the finger knuckles up from that angle you should eventually see a STRAIGHT LINE and all 3 nails. That is the angle you should be filing at, so no rounded edges, just straight across, straight lines. Here was some photos:

Top photo is the 3D arc, middle photo view from on top of the nails (angle at which you can’t tell ANYTHING that is going on), and bottom photo shows the 2D LINE that you file into the 3D arc to create the ramps or straight edges for playing

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=74717&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=trouble%2Cshaping&tmode=&smode=&s=#74720

Here is a video too:
https://youtu.be/naTBb6496mc?si=SC6X_rmdP_zuOnP0

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 16 2023 11:19:11
 
Stu

Posts: 2618
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Nail shape for different guitar ... (in reply to Ricardo

Sorry of course you didn't. You said straight across

My internal monologue getting on the way of my typing.

Thanks for video and photo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 16 2023 12:54:35
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1641
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Nail shape for different guitar ... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

The third dimensional arc is ideal such that on the middle finger, for example, you rest the flesh on the string until two points contact the string. As you traverse the 2D plane, the string travels the arc along route until the two points converge

What do you mean by 2 points?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 16 2023 14:44:17
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1641
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Nail shape for different guitar ... (in reply to Stu

quote:

How do you manage nail shape so as all techniques are happy?

Only my middle fingernail can be problematic when it's perfect for picado and at the same time a bit short for arpegio.

quote:


compromise.

and/or file for my weakest technique!

For me the opposite is true. Otherwise your weakest technique remains weak.
Because my picado isnt fully developed I cut my middle fingernail arpegio friendly. As a compromise, I have to press a bit harder when playing picado.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 16 2023 14:51:50
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14993
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Nail shape for different guitar ... (in reply to devilhand

quote:

What do you mean by 2 points?


In the video where you see me filing, imagine the nail file is not a 2D flat plane but rather a 1D guitar string. The contact with the nail would therefore be at 2 points instead of the entire nail edge.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 17 2023 11:33:28
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1641
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Nail shape for different guitar ... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

In the video where you see me filing, imagine the nail file is not a 2D flat plane but rather a 1D guitar string. The contact with the nail would therefore be at 2 points instead of the entire nail edge.

I see what you mean. In 2d, nailshape is concave to the origin. There's a straight line (guitar string) passing through 2 points on this concave curved nail. But this is only true for my middle and ring finger. As for my index fingernail, there's only one contact point.
Do you think this applies to most of us?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 17 2023 23:41:24
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14993
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Nail shape for different guitar ... (in reply to devilhand

quote:

Do you think this applies to most of us?


yes but it depends on wrist angle, as I mentioned earlier. Flamenco players bend the wrist for most techniques so the fingers are more straight on to the string where as classical players have a straight wrist very often and thus attack the string at an angle. Flamenco players alter this angle for thumb and index combination stuff.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 18 2023 14:05:36
 
Stu

Posts: 2618
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Nail shape for different guitar ... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=74717&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=trouble%2Cshaping&tmode=&smode=&s=#74720



Ooh that's embarrassing. I'm on that thread. Saying the same thing I'm struggling with today.


I can't ever remember all the threads.

Thanks again. Filed Middle flatter and straighter on the other two.. seems to have helped.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 19 2023 13:12:02
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14993
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Nail shape for different guitar ... (in reply to Stu

quote:

Ooh that's embarrassing. I'm on that thread. Saying the same thing I'm struggling with today.


Some people I talk to say “Ricardo, are you still on foro flamenco saying the same things like a broken record”, and my normal response is that there are always new comers that need to be told directly, or be reassured that info they came across from a 2007 post is still relevant. Well, NOW I can tell them “Stu is just now getting his nails together. This thing takes time”. . what did Sabicas say? 20 years? Then you can play something?

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 19 2023 15:36:26
 
Stu

Posts: 2618
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Nail shape for different guitar ... (in reply to Ricardo

😅😅

Yeah. I think he was right...
Scary thing I've just realised is I think I'm probably coming up to 20 years....

I thought I'd done the nail thing and found a place where it all worked. But I've finally decided to try and catch my picado up to the rest of my technique, and it's exposed these issues. I'm hoping these latest changes will pay off. Still a bit worried about the shape of my nails on the front on view. Less of an arc and more of an arc with the apex chopped off.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 19 2023 18:27:13
 
orsonw

Posts: 1958
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Nail shape for different guitar ... (in reply to Stu

quote:

Scary thing I've just realised is I think I'm probably coming up to 20 years....


Me too. Unfortunately playing for 20 years doesn't necessarily mean we progress. I think the first 1-4 years are the most important. Most of us miss the beginner opportunity. Anyone that gets to a high level is already very good at year 3-4.
E.g. devilhand is a classic example. He's been learning by himself without a teacher or being in a flamenco environment. In his recent solea upload he plays very out of time and he's been on the foro 4 years, so he's missed his beginner opportunity but hasn't realised it yet. And his arpeggio showed good potential, but now he'll be like most of us in 20 years time
Saying that though, I just played for a couple of high level dancers' workshop classes this weekend. They were over from Spain, I'd never met them before the class and didn't know what they were going to teach. But I did a good job of accompanying the baile, supporting their choreography and following the dancer's sketch 'cante'. I was pleased to see that at least some of my practice does pay off when it counts.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 20 2023 10:20:20
 
orsonw

Posts: 1958
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Nail shape for different guitar ... (in reply to orsonw

Here are my nails in case it helps.
Facing finger tips front on, back of hand front on, and the angle that meets the string showing the 'straight ramp'.



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 20 2023 10:28:13
 
silddx

Posts: 605
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: Nail shape for different guitar ... (in reply to orsonw

quote:

Here are my nails in case it helps.


That's very helpful!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 20 2023 11:19:09
 
silddx

Posts: 605
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: Nail shape for different guitar ... (in reply to orsonw

quote:

In his recent solea upload


Dev uploaded a video? I never thought I would see the day. Where is it please? I'm curious.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 20 2023 11:20:31
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14993
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Nail shape for different guitar ... (in reply to silddx

quote:

ORIGINAL: silddx

quote:

In his recent solea upload


Dev uploaded a video? I never thought I would see the day. Where is it please? I'm curious.


Not video, but audio back in February
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=345246&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 20 2023 11:44:20
 
Stu

Posts: 2618
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Nail shape for different guitar ... (in reply to orsonw

Nice one orson. Was that flamenco academy's Nov workshop?

Oh I didn't know devil hand uploaded. Good on him. I'll go check it

Oh just saw the other posts. Audio. 👍
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 20 2023 11:46:58
 
silddx

Posts: 605
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: Nail shape for different guitar ... (in reply to Ricardo

Thanks Ricardo.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 20 2023 13:21:32
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1641
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Nail shape for different guitar ... (in reply to orsonw

quote:

Anyone that gets to a high level is already very good at year 3-4.

Name names please.

quote:

In his recent solea upload he plays very out of time

I was aware of it. I know where which beat is. You can say it was rubato playing.

quote:

And his arpeggio showed good potential

My arpegio has improved a lot since then. I can tell you work on your ring finger. Play lots of amama mamam.... Play imami or pimami arpegio with ring finger rest stroke. I can play it almost as fast as normal imami with ring finger free stroke. Believe me highly developed ring finger will take your arpegio and tremolo to a whole another level. Plus my arrastre never sounded so good.

As for your nail shape, where's white material Mr. Marlow has been advocating for over a decade on the foro? I see no straight ramp on your finger. No wonder your arpegio falls apart when you speed up. You should grow your nails a bit longer too.

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Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 21 2023 19:36:38
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Nail shape for different guitar ... (in reply to devilhand

quote:

compromise.

and/or file for my weakest technique!

quote:

For me the opposite is true. Otherwise your weakest technique remains weak.
Because my picado isnt fully developed I cut my middle fingernail arpegio friendly. As a compromise, I have to press a bit harder when playing picado.


I was told to "file for your weakest technique" by an actual TEACHER about TWENTY YEARS AGO.

Don't worry, I'm sure your picado will be "fully developed" in another 3 weeks...

wait, you "cut" your nails?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 21 2023 20:29:16
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Nail shape for different guitar ... (in reply to devilhand

quote:

My arpegio has improved a lot since then. I can tell you work on your ring finger. Play lots of amama mamam.... Play imami or pimami arpegio with ring finger rest stroke. I can play it almost as fast as normal imami with ring finger free stroke. Believe me highly developed ring finger will take your arpegio and tremolo to a whole another level. Plus my arrastre never sounded so good.


I don't know what your guitar playing sounds like, but your posting on the foro sounds very full of yourself...

quote:

As for your nail shape, where's white material Mr. Marlow has been advocating for over a decade on the foro? I see no ramp on your finger. No wonder your arpegio falls apart when you speed up. You should grow your nails a bit longer too.


...and rude as...

Never mind nails, you should grow your manners...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 21 2023 20:36:29
 
silddx

 

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[Deleted] 

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 21 2023 21:20:26
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 21 2023 21:17:53
 
silddx

Posts: 605
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: Nail shape for different guitar ... (in reply to devilhand

quote:

You can say it was rubato playing.


No we can't. Rubato does not translate as 'inability to perform a musical passage in strict tempo'.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 21 2023 21:46:23
 
silddx

Posts: 605
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: Nail shape for different guitar ... (in reply to devilhand

quote:

My arpegio has improved a lot since then. I can tell you work on your ring finger. Play lots of amama mamam.... Play imami or pimami arpegio with ring finger rest stroke. I can play it almost as fast as normal imami with ring finger free stroke. Believe me highly developed ring finger will take your arpegio and tremolo to a whole another level. Plus my arrastre never sounded so good.


Ok then, Monsieur Devilhand, you sound like you will take on a friendly challenge. Since you and I have been practicing Flamenco about the same amount of time, just over two years in my case, how about someone gives you and me a 30 second passage of a piece to learn. We post our videos on an agreed date, say December 15th 2023, and see where we sit.

Are you up for it?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 21 2023 22:01:03
 
Stu

Posts: 2618
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Nail shape for different guitar ... (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

and rude as...

Never mind nails, you should grow your manners...




Yeah it's farcical behaviour really. Good fun watching what he'll say next though. I like your idea nigel.
I have a feeling you won't get any uptake.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 21 2023 22:48:22
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1641
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Nail shape for different guitar ... (in reply to silddx

quote:

Are you up for it?

You don't have to prove anything to anyone except yourself.

_____________________________

Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 21 2023 23:56:59
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