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Posts: 2853
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England
Nail shape for different guitar tech...
Any thoughts on this matter?
Sometimes I file and find a particularly nice shape. That seems to suddenly improve for example my picado. So I think great this is it! Then when I play some arpeggios or tremolo (just random examples) I find that that nail shape is too short for those techs. Or at least too short for the way I've learned to play them (that other technique)
I guess the question is general. How do you manage nail shape so as all techniques are happy?
Posts: 15631
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Nail shape for different guitar ... (in reply to Stu)
The shape should not change. I agree that longer might feel better for arpegio/tremolo. The shape should be a flat filed angle, meaning don’t round or contour your nail to the tip. You should have more white material on either one side or both sides compared to the middle (depending on the ramp or if straight across). I have a ramp going up away from thumb on index, and a ramp going up away from pinky on the ring, but middle is essentially straight across. Now I say flat or “straight” referring to a 2 dimensional plane, but the nail is 3 dimensional. The third dimensional arc is ideal such that on the middle finger, for example, you rest the flesh on the string until two points contact the string. As you traverse the 2D plane, the string travels the arc along route until the two points converge and release somewhere along the flat line 2d plane, near the middle of the arc. Some people don’t have a good arc in the 3D so they have trouble actually setting up the plant on flesh and two points on the nail. For these folks I recommend use CA glue, as it bends the nail after drying into that nice 3d Arc that you need for good tone. The length depends on how steep you tilt the arc into the file but the file, again should only be filing FLAT in 2D.
If you have a ramp, the idea is you only have one contact point on the low side of the ramp, that releases, again, somewhere along that arc. Why do I use opposite ramps on index and ring? Because when I bend my fingers the two fingers curl inward toward the palm at opposite angles, were as middle finger moves straight down. I have noted some classical players, unlike flamencos play with a straight wrist, such that relative to the strings, the fingers always attack at an angle, never straight on, so they will necessarily ramp fingers all the same direction.
Here you can read opinion from a convert on foro, that went from no nails to what I suggested at some point.
Posts: 2853
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England
RE: Nail shape for different guitar ... (in reply to Ricardo)
Thanks ricardo, read that on the go and couldn't work out what you meant 2d/3d world but upon reading at my desk focused its clear.
My 3d arc is kinda an arc at each side but flattens off in the middle. like a plateau.
My index ramps towards the middle. my ring ramps towards the middle. but my middle finger until now has a slight ramp toward my ring. i my try a more rounded shape as you do.
It's interesting. I had all these nail questions early on. but found some peace on the matter. Only now, as im playing a lot and improving and trying to improve picado speed that these nail questions and the refinement of the nails has come back up.
i cant seem to make peace with the straight ramp to a sharp point. as opposed to ramp with a rounded point. rounded point at the top of the ramp seems to make sense in aiding the string passing over that point. sharp point feels like it would snag the string.
Posts: 15631
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Nail shape for different guitar ... (in reply to Stu)
quote:
my try a more rounded shape as you do.
I never said I did a “round shape” of anything. If you mean the “arc” is round, that is the the way the nail physically is as attached to the bed when viewing like the finger tip is heading toward your eyeball. The nail edge is a 2D arc that extends backwards (invisibly) into a 3rd dimension that contributes to nail LENGTH. If you tilt the finger knuckles up from that angle you should eventually see a STRAIGHT LINE and all 3 nails. That is the angle you should be filing at, so no rounded edges, just straight across, straight lines. Here was some photos:
Top photo is the 3D arc, middle photo view from on top of the nails (angle at which you can’t tell ANYTHING that is going on), and bottom photo shows the 2D LINE that you file into the 3D arc to create the ramps or straight edges for playing
RE: Nail shape for different guitar ... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
The third dimensional arc is ideal such that on the middle finger, for example, you rest the flesh on the string until two points contact the string. As you traverse the 2D plane, the string travels the arc along route until the two points converge
RE: Nail shape for different guitar ... (in reply to Stu)
quote:
How do you manage nail shape so as all techniques are happy?
Only my middle fingernail can be problematic when it's perfect for picado and at the same time a bit short for arpegio.
quote:
compromise.
and/or file for my weakest technique!
For me the opposite is true. Otherwise your weakest technique remains weak. Because my picado isnt fully developed I cut my middle fingernail arpegio friendly. As a compromise, I have to press a bit harder when playing picado.
Posts: 15631
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Nail shape for different guitar ... (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
What do you mean by 2 points?
In the video where you see me filing, imagine the nail file is not a 2D flat plane but rather a 1D guitar string. The contact with the nail would therefore be at 2 points instead of the entire nail edge.
RE: Nail shape for different guitar ... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
In the video where you see me filing, imagine the nail file is not a 2D flat plane but rather a 1D guitar string. The contact with the nail would therefore be at 2 points instead of the entire nail edge.
I see what you mean. In 2d, nailshape is concave to the origin. There's a straight line (guitar string) passing through 2 points on this concave curved nail. But this is only true for my middle and ring finger. As for my index fingernail, there's only one contact point. Do you think this applies to most of us?
Posts: 15631
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Nail shape for different guitar ... (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
Do you think this applies to most of us?
yes but it depends on wrist angle, as I mentioned earlier. Flamenco players bend the wrist for most techniques so the fingers are more straight on to the string where as classical players have a straight wrist very often and thus attack the string at an angle. Flamenco players alter this angle for thumb and index combination stuff.
Posts: 15631
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Nail shape for different guitar ... (in reply to Stu)
quote:
Ooh that's embarrassing. I'm on that thread. Saying the same thing I'm struggling with today.
Some people I talk to say “Ricardo, are you still on foro flamenco saying the same things like a broken record”, and my normal response is that there are always new comers that need to be told directly, or be reassured that info they came across from a 2007 post is still relevant. Well, NOW I can tell them “Stu is just now getting his nails together. This thing takes time”. . what did Sabicas say? 20 years? Then you can play something?
Posts: 2853
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England
RE: Nail shape for different guitar ... (in reply to Ricardo)
😅😅
Yeah. I think he was right... Scary thing I've just realised is I think I'm probably coming up to 20 years....
I thought I'd done the nail thing and found a place where it all worked. But I've finally decided to try and catch my picado up to the rest of my technique, and it's exposed these issues. I'm hoping these latest changes will pay off. Still a bit worried about the shape of my nails on the front on view. Less of an arc and more of an arc with the apex chopped off.
RE: Nail shape for different guitar ... (in reply to Stu)
quote:
Scary thing I've just realised is I think I'm probably coming up to 20 years....
Me too. Unfortunately playing for 20 years doesn't necessarily mean we progress. I think the first 1-4 years are the most important. Most of us miss the beginner opportunity. Anyone that gets to a high level is already very good at year 3-4. E.g. devilhand is a classic example. He's been learning by himself without a teacher or being in a flamenco environment. In his recent solea upload he plays very out of time and he's been on the foro 4 years, so he's missed his beginner opportunity but hasn't realised it yet. And his arpeggio showed good potential, but now he'll be like most of us in 20 years time Saying that though, I just played for a couple of high level dancers' workshop classes this weekend. They were over from Spain, I'd never met them before the class and didn't know what they were going to teach. But I did a good job of accompanying the baile, supporting their choreography and following the dancer's sketch 'cante'. I was pleased to see that at least some of my practice does pay off when it counts.
RE: Nail shape for different guitar ... (in reply to orsonw)
Here are my nails in case it helps. Facing finger tips front on, back of hand front on, and the angle that meets the string showing the 'straight ramp'.
Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px
RE: Nail shape for different guitar ... (in reply to orsonw)
quote:
Anyone that gets to a high level is already very good at year 3-4.
Name names please.
quote:
In his recent solea upload he plays very out of time
I was aware of it. I know where which beat is. You can say it was rubato playing.
quote:
And his arpeggio showed good potential
My arpegio has improved a lot since then. I can tell you work on your ring finger. Play lots of amama mamam.... Play imami or pimami arpegio with ring finger rest stroke. I can play it almost as fast as normal imami with ring finger free stroke. Believe me highly developed ring finger will take your arpegio and tremolo to a whole another level. Plus my arrastre never sounded so good.
As for your nail shape, where's white material Mr. Marlow has been advocating for over a decade on the foro? I see no straight ramp on your finger. No wonder your arpegio falls apart when you speed up. You should grow your nails a bit longer too.
RE: Nail shape for different guitar ... (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
compromise.
and/or file for my weakest technique!
quote:
For me the opposite is true. Otherwise your weakest technique remains weak. Because my picado isnt fully developed I cut my middle fingernail arpegio friendly. As a compromise, I have to press a bit harder when playing picado.
I was told to "file for your weakest technique" by an actual TEACHER about TWENTY YEARS AGO.
Don't worry, I'm sure your picado will be "fully developed" in another 3 weeks...
RE: Nail shape for different guitar ... (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
My arpegio has improved a lot since then. I can tell you work on your ring finger. Play lots of amama mamam.... Play imami or pimami arpegio with ring finger rest stroke. I can play it almost as fast as normal imami with ring finger free stroke. Believe me highly developed ring finger will take your arpegio and tremolo to a whole another level. Plus my arrastre never sounded so good.
I don't know what your guitar playing sounds like, but your posting on the foro sounds very full of yourself...
quote:
As for your nail shape, where's white material Mr. Marlow has been advocating for over a decade on the foro? I see no ramp on your finger. No wonder your arpegio falls apart when you speed up. You should grow your nails a bit longer too.
RE: Nail shape for different guitar ... (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
My arpegio has improved a lot since then. I can tell you work on your ring finger. Play lots of amama mamam.... Play imami or pimami arpegio with ring finger rest stroke. I can play it almost as fast as normal imami with ring finger free stroke. Believe me highly developed ring finger will take your arpegio and tremolo to a whole another level. Plus my arrastre never sounded so good.
Ok then, Monsieur Devilhand, you sound like you will take on a friendly challenge. Since you and I have been practicing Flamenco about the same amount of time, just over two years in my case, how about someone gives you and me a 30 second passage of a piece to learn. We post our videos on an agreed date, say December 15th 2023, and see where we sit.
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