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devilhand

 

Posts: 1574
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

10 levels of flamenco guitar 

I've just noticed there is still no youtube video 10 levels of flamenco guitar.
Anyone? I'm looking at you guys Mr. Marlow, Grisha, Ramzi, JohnWalshGuitar, Bulerias2005, L. Ghosn, A. del Monte, J. Tanaka or J. McGuire ... Sorry I didn't mention every person.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 13 2023 18:47:11
 
rombsix

Posts: 7778
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: 10 levels of flamenco guitar (in reply to devilhand

You're very kind to mention me in this group. I can probably do level zero, where I play fuera de compas. Level 1 will then be playing single notes, except *in* compas.

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http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 14 2023 3:00:30
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14642
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: 10 levels of flamenco guitar (in reply to devilhand

-1 know how to play some chords, open basic chords. Start listening to flamenco recordings (guitar and cante).

0. Know how to use a basic metronome, so you can switch basic chords in time. Only after this is achieved can you start learning flamenco. Don’t even need a flamenco guitar yet.

1. Get a flamenco guitar, so you can learn compas strumming with golpes. Keep using a basic metronome. Learn patterns from a Maestro, or transcription book. Basic rasgueados are part of the patterns you should be practicing.

2. Learn basic falsetas that fit tempo and key-wise with the compas patterns you are learning/practicing. Falsetas should use pulgar and arpegio at first.

3-8. continue learning or upgrading your material in the same manner, compas patterns and falsetas, for all the important palos. This is a NEVER ENDING PROCESS. Some humble yet careful creative avenues can be explored after a large amount of traditional material is under the belt. Again, you don’t abandon learning from maestros or using a metronome at ANY point.

9. Go to a dance class or academy or single dance teacher/performer. Learn the rhythmic vocabulary with formal structure by applying your compas patterns and falsetas as required. Never abandon your practice with metronome, however, part of the rhythmic vocabulary you develop in this environment is moving tempos. Again, this work is done at the same time as you are developing 1-8, and in many ways, affect your tastes and creative ideas. If you are lucky, you will have already been introduced by a flamenco guitar teacher to some important aspects of dance accompaniment that are not found in cante or guitar solo playing alone. If not, then you will have to decipher this information from the dance teacher (not easy). In the end, this process will not advance if you are not doing this alone (in other words, not playing next to a lead guitarist, you have to do this alone). Don’t be afraid to make mistakes and be frustrated at times. It takes 20 years as Sabicas said.

10. Cante accompaniment. You can get started with some of the concepts presented in our cante accompaniment thread on this foro. But eventually, you have to find a real singer, one you respect and who also has patience to deal with you learning. Here, as with the dance class, you need to be humble and prepared for making many mistakes. Hopefully the dance class has informed you of FORMAL STRUCTURE, that fits in with most standard choreography, of the cante of basic forms. This is the blueprint chord structure that you start with to follow most letras. However, it is time in this final level to break the blueprint, or learn how to manipulate these “charts” in oder to function as an attentive and sensitive accompanist. This is the hardest level to achieve and needs to be ultimately done with many different singers, not only ones that sing the same way all the time or for dancers only. Honestly, it is very rare to find these individuals outside of Spain, but if you do find someone, again be humble and stick with them, learning as much as you can. Again, 20 years minimum Sabicas says. This all overlaps and is never ending, hopefully.

In the case of 9, it can be that a guitarist gets “stuck” with a same repertoire or group; in which case if advancement or creativity is not happening, you can move on, or focus on 10 instead. Perhaps returning to 9 with new dancers or helping students get into it. So while all the others can be continued learning, I would let 9 be the only one you can leave once you have gone through the program sufficiently.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 14 2023 12:55:11
 
Morante

 

Posts: 2145
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: 10 levels of flamenco guitar (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

You can get started with some of the concepts presented in our cante accompaniment thread on this foro. But eventually, you have to find a real singer, one you respect and who also has patience to deal with you learning.


Sadly, this is the truth and is my experience. But most people have to accept their circumstances. Spend much time in Andalucía and accompany real cantaores is for few people due to their life circumstances.

I would "quitar el sombrero" to anyone who is trying ¡Animo!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 14 2023 17:08:37
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1574
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: 10 levels of flamenco guitar (in reply to rombsix

quote:

I can probably do level zero, where I play fuera de compas. Level 1 will then be playing single notes, except *in* compas.

You're humble about your playing. I thought you already reached step 8 Mr. Marlow pointed out above.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 14 2023 20:01:34
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1574
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: 10 levels of flamenco guitar (in reply to Ricardo

It's not about 10 steps to becoming an authentic flamenco guitarist. It's about demonstrating 10 technical levels of flamenco guitar playing on youtube. People want to be entertained. Some might be inspired and want to learn flamenco guitar. I'm sure such a video will get millions of views.

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Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 14 2023 20:04:57
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14642
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: 10 levels of flamenco guitar (in reply to devilhand

quote:

I'm sure such a video will get millions of views.


Oh, my bad. I am actually trying to help people, not get garbage tik toker likes and subscriptions.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 15 2023 11:13:27
 
silddx

Posts: 562
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: 10 levels of flamenco guitar (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Oh, my bad. I am actually trying to help people, not get garbage tik toker likes and subscriptions.


<like>
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 15 2023 21:34:32
 
xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1878
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: 10 levels of flamenco guitar (in reply to silddx

We need the like button back (and the dislike button even more so :D)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 15 2023 22:13:23
 
Morante

 

Posts: 2145
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: 10 levels of flamenco guitar (in reply to devilhand

It is one thing to play flamenco guitar but something completely different to play flamenco.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 16 2023 0:35:55
 
edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: 10 levels of flamenco guitar (in reply to devilhand

quote:

It is one thing to play flamenco guitar but something completely different to play flamenco.

You can say that again! As a flamenco guitar player (or should I say "dabbler") I can confirm that.

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El aficionado solitario
Alemania
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 16 2023 9:49:19
 
orsonw

Posts: 1929
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: 10 levels of flamenco guitar (in reply to Morante

quote:

It is one thing to play flamenco guitar but something completely different to play flamenco.


Yes!
I have had experience with all 10 of Ricardo's levels, including working with a couple of real singers from Cadiz, but still consider myself a beginner at flamenco. And one who can only just play flamenco guitar at a low/middle level! But that's OK. My goal is to deepen enjoyment and appreciation of flamenco as far as possible. And to value the reality of where my toque is at now, even though the road will always be open and stretching ahead far beyond me.

quote:

This is the hardest level to achieve and needs to be ultimately done with many different singers, not only ones that sing the same way all the time or for dancers only. Honestly, it is very rare to find these individuals outside of Spain,


Currently here in London my only opportunity is with amateur Spanish singers, but we are then both learning together. This is still valuable, meaningful and real. I know it's not the same as a complete/knowledgable singer that Ricardo alludes to. Practicing with recordings is the next best option.



Here's some flamenco with Niño Jero accompanying Remedios Amaya
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 16 2023 10:45:16
 
Mark2

Posts: 1855
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: 10 levels of flamenco guitar (in reply to orsonw

Yes. Several years ago I stopped working with cante recordings because I thought it was a bit like masterbating. What's the point of learning what chord Paco played for Camaron if I'm never gonna get to play for him, or for that matter, anyone that can sing really well?

But I came to a realization that that's all there was left. My technique is what it is, and it's never going to be top level. But I can learn a lot more about cante, and how to play for it, even if that knowledge never gets applied. I'm pursuing it for it's own sake, and my satisfaction. I've done the playing for the locals thing, and it doesn't work for me.

I have a friend who also is into flamenco, and he said the pursuit of flamenco outside Spain at some point is a dead end. I think he's right, but here we are........


quote:

ORIGINAL: orsonw

quote:

It is one thing to play flamenco guitar but something completely different to play flamenco.


Yes!
I have had experience with all 10 of Ricardo's levels, including working with a couple of real singers from Cadiz, but still consider myself a beginner at flamenco. And one who can only just play flamenco guitar at a low/middle level! But that's OK. My goal is to deepen enjoyment and appreciation of flamenco as far as possible. And to value the reality of where my toque is at now, even though the road will always be open and stretching ahead far beyond me.

quote:

This is the hardest level to achieve and needs to be ultimately done with many different singers, not only ones that sing the same way all the time or for dancers only. Honestly, it is very rare to find these individuals outside of Spain,


Currently here in London my only opportunity is with amateur Spanish singers, but we are then both learning together. This is still valuable, meaningful and real. I know it's not the same as a complete/knowledgable singer that Ricardo alludes to. Practicing with recordings is the next best option.



Here's some flamenco with Niño Jero accompanying Remedios Amaya

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 16 2023 15:31:23
 
Stu

Posts: 2471
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: 10 levels of flamenco guitar (in reply to Ricardo

quote:


Oh, my bad. I am actually trying to help people, not get garbage tik toker likes and subscriptions.




but who wants help? people want catchy videos with promises of "learn the whole fret board in 5 days!" ..."With this one simple trick!" or "mastering the guitar in a year!"

(i must admit, id probably watch a 10 levels of flamenco guitar techs... sorry.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 17 2023 7:51:54
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14642
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: 10 levels of flamenco guitar (in reply to Mark2

quote:

I have a friend who also is into flamenco, and he said the pursuit of flamenco outside Spain at some point is a dead end. I think he's right, but here we are........


There is always the option to be creative. And since most of the professional work will be with dance, there are many guys both in and outside of spain that take the choreographed show as the prime driver of the creativity. They are quite inspired to “mount” the music for a show, by composing the entire thing with falsetas and fixing specific cantes then memorizing tricky dance rhythms with set-up chord hits. Basically theatrical productions, are usually lucrative. Even singers involved have to learn specific letras they might not have known. In my case we have even had pro singers from Spain studying letras in advance before coming over. Recent shows involved Petenera, Caña, Bambera, Liviana, etc., not the typical tablao stuff.

Of course the incentive for the above has to be artistic grant funding/subsidization because nobody wants to gamble on a show not selling tickets. However, I just wanted to point out that these things are often in place to some degree and therefore it is not a total “dead end”.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 17 2023 10:52:36
 
Mark2

Posts: 1855
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: 10 levels of flamenco guitar (in reply to Ricardo

Of course you are correct, but you're in the 1% of flamenco guitarists in the USA :-)
The average joe, or even the above average joe has little chance to be part of a subsidized dance production with singers and guest dancers from Spain. If my friend was in that circle, he might never have made that comment. And if you don't participate in your local scene, you simply won't get the call. But you are correct in that there are endless opportunities to be creative with flamenco, even if you do it by yourself.

I don't entirely agree with my compadre, or else I'd have quit a long time ago. He still has his guitars too.

I went to see another friend's band last week. Ten piece band, horns, name band players. They sold out the club. 200 seats. Made gas money. Music is a tough way to make a buck.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

I have a friend who also is into flamenco, and he said the pursuit of flamenco outside Spain at some point is a dead end. I think he's right, but here we are........


There is always the option to be creative. And since most of the professional work will be with dance, there are many guys both in and outside of spain that take the choreographed show as the prime driver of the creativity. They are quite inspired to “mount” the music for a show, by composing the entire thing with falsetas and fixing specific cantes then memorizing tricky dance rhythms with set-up chord hits. Basically theatrical productions, are usually lucrative. Even singers involved have to learn specific letras they might not have known. In my case we have even had pro singers from Spain studying letras in advance before coming over. Recent shows involved Petenera, Caña, Bambera, Liviana, etc., not the typical tablao stuff.

Of course the incentive for the above has to be artistic grant funding/subsidization because nobody wants to gamble on a show not selling tickets. However, I just wanted to point out that these things are often in place to some degree and therefore it is not a total “dead end”.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 17 2023 16:10:51
 
silddx

Posts: 562
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: 10 levels of flamenco guitar (in reply to devilhand

quote:

It's not about 10 steps to becoming an authentic flamenco guitarist. It's about demonstrating 10 technical levels of flamenco guitar playing on youtube. People want to be entertained. Some might be inspired and want to learn flamenco guitar. I'm sure such a video will get millions of views.


I found this for you. It only has 7 levels but he has amassed 1,700 views.

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 19 2023 18:26:42
 
estebanana

Posts: 9315
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: 10 levels of flamenco guitar (in reply to Ricardo

Ricardo,
You’ll always be an “an influencer” to me. Or at least be ‘under the influence’ lol 😂

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2023 0:42:36
 
Grisha

 

Posts: 1263
Joined: Mar. 17 2005
 

RE: 10 levels of flamenco guitar (in reply to devilhand

I feel quite confident I can demonstrate the first 5-6 levels. By the way, I think that levels 11-15 are purely in expressive nuances.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 23 2023 3:50:13
 
xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1878
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: 10 levels of flamenco guitar (in reply to silddx

Maybe technically he has demonstrated some good levels, but even his highest level of 7 would be much lower in my mind. Perhaps 10 levels are not enough. Unfortunately his compás is shaky and it pains me to look at his right hand moving around. From here we could go to fast arpeggios, picados, P+i variations, using alternative chords, a million things to do with the rhythm, not to mention how to put things into context with a singer, dancer, finding the right chord. Ricardo should really do a demonstration, or Grisha if he volunteers :)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 23 2023 14:23:54
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1574
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: 10 levels of flamenco guitar (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ

quote:

Perhaps 10 levels are not enough.

I believe flamenco guitar level 1 will start on a higher level as compared to other guitar styles. Level 5 or 6 of slap or bass guitar is like level 1 of flamenco guitar.





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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 23 2023 20:21:11
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1574
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: 10 levels of flamenco guitar (in reply to Grisha

quote:

I feel quite confident I can demonstrate the first 5-6 levels. By the way, I think that levels 11-15 are purely in expressive nuances.

We all know you can demonstrate all possible levels. If you don't, who else will do it?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 23 2023 20:23:44
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14642
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: 10 levels of flamenco guitar (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ

quote:

Ricardo should really do a demonstration


we have the cante accompaniment thread with tons of demos, discussions, challenges, and examples. As I said though, that is really the start. The student needs to get into the subjective seat and really drive the car by themselves.

The guy with the 7 levels of solea is fine as a start....truly it is only level 1 compas, and only for Solea. I was given a criteria of 10 levels but in all honesty, there are only 4. You simply keep building on level 1 and 2 (compas and falsetas) with various palos and advancements, which include the nuances Grisha mentions. Then this is applied to Dance and Cante, again with continued advancement and refinement over time.

It is not complex in terms of elements, just in details. Important to note people like Jeronimo Maya in the other thread, that advanced his focus on guitar to a high level, especially in the creative area, became very original, but sort of avant guarde early on. Now he has matured and his playing is way more orthodox....demonstrating a change of tastes with more knowledge. I felt myself take a similar path.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 24 2023 10:58:30
 
silddx

Posts: 562
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: 10 levels of flamenco guitar (in reply to Ricardo

I was just being sarky posting that 7 levels of Solea compas.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 24 2023 19:02:55
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