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Mark2

Posts: 1908
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

What are your goals re flamenco? 

I've been involved on some level with flamenco for over 35 years now. When I started I just wanted to learn to sound like the pros. I thought that would lead to all kinds of ass kicking. Having had some success with other styles of guitar playing, I had no idea how difficult that would be. Still trying.

After a year or two of lessons, my teacher started giving me gigs, and it just got better and better for a while. I knew I needed to learn to accompany, and that was a whole other process, and after a few more years, I started getting dance gigs. Did the whole rumba band thing too, and it turned out to be the most successful group I ever played with.

But things change, people move, they get older, and sometimes just pass away.

I didn't do much in the way of study for a while until I saw Antonio Rey in 2019, and the show lit the fire again. Been studying with Tino online for a few years now, and have learned a bunch of his stuff.

But I'm at a point where I have no idea what to do with it, other than study for it's own sake, which is very enjoyable.

Thing is, I've always been a gigging musician until a few years ago, so it feels incomplete. But I really don't see myself returning to gigging.

I thought it might help to hear what others are doing with their studies, and what their goals are.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 14 2023 17:34:16
 
Ricardo

Posts: 15032
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: What are your goals re flamenco? (in reply to Mark2

I am still a gigging musician and don’t see an end in sight. Not really looking to end it anyway. My friend built me an electric guitar, one of the style I had always wanted since I was 15, and had not touched my Kramer since 1996 or so (same strings and Floyd Rose kept it in tune 20 some years!!! ). So the new guitar has inspired me to work up some rock and jazz fusion material that I would not have done otherwise, so I eventually want to have a weird band where we mix rep with flamenco, rumba, jazz fusion, and metal, where I will switch out guitars during the show somehow and use a real metal drummer. ( ).

Meanwhile, I have a bunch of falsetas and exercises coming out through Mel Bay mixed with classical material of Cory Whitehead. This will be an extension of the stuff Juan Serrano put out years ago. So I will finally have a “method” book to point students to. I also have been writing a lot of my thoughts about music theory and flamenco and how it works together, which I will publish one day in the future.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 15 2023 17:56:58
 
silddx

Posts: 634
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: What are your goals re flamenco? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

I eventually want to have a weird band where we mix rep with flamenco, rumba, jazz fusion, and metal,


Careful there, you might get the Rosalia treatment ;)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 15 2023 18:15:05
 
Ricardo

Posts: 15032
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: What are your goals re flamenco? (in reply to silddx

quote:

ORIGINAL: silddx

quote:

I eventually want to have a weird band where we mix rep with flamenco, rumba, jazz fusion, and metal,


Careful there, you might get the Rosalia treatment ;)


I won’t be doing a Rock version of siguiriyas. The band has a cantoraor/cajon player too. We can do Bamberas, then Meeting of the Spirits, then South of Heaven, then Djobi Djoba, etc. Whatever the heck we want to taste. The only challenge will be the program…do I mix it up or group things together? I like different kinds of music, and last I checked, so do most people.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 15 2023 18:20:58
 
silddx

Posts: 634
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: What are your goals re flamenco? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

I like different kinds of music, and last I checked, so do most people.


I entirely agree, some people can get very protective and dare I say, up their own backsides, about purity, and without understanding it or appreciating context.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 15 2023 20:53:09
 
mt1007

Posts: 162
Joined: Jan. 19 2011
 

RE: What are your goals re flamenco? (in reply to Mark2

Mark2

It's great to hear that you've been involved with flamenco for over 35 years and have had success with gigging and playing in various groups. It's also wonderful that you've found renewed inspiration and enjoyment in studying with Tino online.

It can be challenging to know what to do with your studies, especially when you're not actively gigging. I try to stay creative and continue to write music, study theory, etc. This helps keep the flame burning. As the years have passed for me, I try to be more selective with the gigs I take on which can also help me focus on the types of performances that are most meaningful and fulfilling.

As for goals, it's important to remember that they can change over time. If your current goal is to continue studying for the love of the music, that's perfectly valid. But if you feel the desire to do something more with your skills, perhaps you could consider recording an album or collaborating with other musicians on a project that speaks to your artistic vision.

Ultimately, the most important thing is to stay true to yourself and your creative vision, and to keep exploring and learning in the way that brings you the most joy and fulfillment.

Peace homie!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 15 2023 21:43:53
 
silddx

Posts: 634
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: What are your goals re flamenco? (in reply to mt1007

Well said!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 15 2023 22:31:19
 
JasonM

Posts: 2089
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: What are your goals re flamenco? (in reply to Mark2

Good topic, Mark.

My goals have kinda disappeared. Dance class used to be a motivator, and getting better for some future gigging. Things have dried up in my area especially since the pandemic. I also find traditional flamenco less inspiring than I used to, and like Ricardo, listen to fusion and metal. But I’ve been with flamenco for so long it feels so foreign to play with a pick or other styles. So I’ve been feeling lost lately with what I want to invest time on, but mostly focusing on guitar trio stuff.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 16 2023 1:22:16
 
estebanana

Posts: 9410
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: What are your goals re flamenco? (in reply to Mark2

I just want to be able to play in compas for more than 29 bars….

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 16 2023 11:56:19
 
bahen

Posts: 383
Joined: Mar. 4 2006
 

RE: What are your goals re flamenco? (in reply to JasonM

quote:

it feels so foreign to play with a pick


The ghost of ToddK from times past will have something to say about that :)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 16 2023 14:15:12
 
Stu

Posts: 2630
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: What are your goals re flamenco? (in reply to Mark2

yeah good topic.

1. To be able to play loudly at home. practice ras, alzapua etc
2. To start playing for dance again consistently.
3. To play with a singer
4. To finish building my no.2 and then build more
5. To get awesome!

they all require my kids to grow up a bit and leave me the **** alone! for a bit.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 16 2023 14:29:42
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1654
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: What are your goals re flamenco? (in reply to Mark2

1. To be able to play like Paco de Lucia, Melchor de Marchena and Moraito as soon as possible. A complete flamenco guitar player as one would say
2. To be able to play arabian oud music on flamenco guitar
3. To integrate right hand flamenco techniques into my guitar playing in general

_____________________________

Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 16 2023 16:33:56
 
Ricardo

Posts: 15032
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: What are your goals re flamenco? (in reply to JasonM

quote:

But I’ve been with flamenco for so long it feels so foreign to play with a pick or other styles.


One weird thing I noticed, getting back into picking, was that I used to use heavy picks (.88 or heavier), but I got the .73 tortex and it is a huge difference. Much easier and better sound for fast picking stuff. It surprised me. But based on a funny video here, I gave it a try, see at 8:24:



Not the same for acoustic guitar, but for electric it is a big difference.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 17 2023 12:29:06
 
zendalex

Posts: 137
Joined: Sep. 4 2010
From: New York area

RE: What are your goals re flamenco? (in reply to Mark2

It is intersting to see this question raized formally, as I have been asking myself exactly that lately. And the reason I am asking this is b/c I have been studying it forever, never having any gigs whatsover and very rarely playing for anybody at all, except my family members, who do not even pay any attention to the sounds coming from my room. And yet I continue to invest a lot of time in it. I asked my wife, what she thinks, i.e should I maybe reduce the time investment, if clearly I have no apparent goals, and she said that I should do it as long as I like the process. Thus appearently my goal is to continue and enjoy it :))
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 17 2023 15:40:38
 
zendalex

Posts: 137
Joined: Sep. 4 2010
From: New York area

RE: What are your goals re flamenco? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

Meanwhile, I have a bunch of falsetas and exercises coming out through Mel Bay mixed with classical material of Cory Whitehead. This will be an extension of the stuff Juan Serrano put out years ago. So I will finally have a “method” book to point students to. I also have been writing a lot of my thoughts about music theory and flamenco and how it works together, which I will publish one day in the future.


Wow is this the Cory that was trolled to oblivion by J McGuire?

Jokes aside, I am actually interested in getting that book, could you provide a link?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 17 2023 15:44:20
 
Bulerias2005

 

Posts: 632
Joined: Jul. 10 2010
From: Minneapolis, MN

RE: What are your goals re flamenco? (in reply to Mark2

Not at all restricted to flamenco, but when it comes to music generally -- to continue creating art in a genuine and authentic way, where the influences I've subsumed can come together in a way that shows appreciation for the source material but also something original. And to have fun along the way, composing, arranging, performing, new collaborations, all of it.

_____________________________

Daniel Volovets
Jazz, Classical, Flamenco, & Latin-American Guitar
http://www.danielvolovets.com/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 17 2023 16:56:07
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1654
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: What are your goals re flamenco? (in reply to zendalex

quote:

I am actually interested in getting that book, could you provide a link?

You'll probably read something like spanish 6th. A term invented by him. Talking about aug6th, who applied it first to flamenco harmony?

_____________________________

Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 17 2023 17:17:43
 
silddx

Posts: 634
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: What are your goals re flamenco? (in reply to zendalex

quote:

It is intersting to see this question raized formally, as I have been asking myself exactly that lately. And the reason I am asking this is b/c I have been studying it forever, never having any gigs whatsover and very rarely playing for anybody at all, except my family members, who do not even pay any attention to the sounds coming from my room. And yet I continue to invest a lot of time in it. I asked my wife, what she thinks, i.e should I maybe reduce the time investment, if clearly I have no apparent goals, and she said that I should do it as long as I like the process. Thus appearently my goal is to continue and enjoy it :))


Like you, I am simply greatly enjoying the learning and developing process. I have no ambition to play for anyone other than my tutor. I get my stage kicks playing electric bass in the band I'm in, and that desire is diminishing tbh. I'm just enjoying reading about, listening to, and studying flamenco.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 17 2023 19:55:32
 
Morante

 

Posts: 2222
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: What are your goals re flamenco? (in reply to zendalex

I have never had any interest in solo flamenco guitar. During a festival in Spain, the appearance of a soloist resulted in most of the aficionados getting up to go to the bar, only returning for el cante.

I wanted to accompany. So before moving to Spain I studied el cante: what is the difference between the Soleá de Cádiz, de Alcalá, de Triana? between Alegrías, Romeras, Mirabras? Tangos de Cádiz, Triana, Málaga? Cambios por cabales o por macho de Molino in Seguiriyas?

Sadly, I discovered that the majority of afficionados in Spain have no idea.

However, I achieved my goal, accompaning cantaores such as Santiago Donday, Angel Pastor, Juan Silva, my maestro José Millán, my amigo Rancapino, although I cannot play a single falseta de Paco de Lucía or Vicente Amigo.

Now, with my left hand operated, and the lack of cantaores in Cádiz, I play very little but I have achieved my goal.

Now, I only listen to cante en directo: at home Robert Johnson, Albert King, Elmore James, Johnny Cash etc.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 17 2023 21:37:51
 
Romerito

 

Posts: 53
Joined: Jan. 18 2023
 

RE: What are your goals re flamenco? (in reply to devilhand

Knowing chord construction and syntax, probably Sabicas. Going from posturas as basic building blocks without knowing chord construction or syntax, probably Montoya!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 17 2023 22:41:34
 
Ricardo

Posts: 15032
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: What are your goals re flamenco? (in reply to zendalex

quote:

ORIGINAL: zendalex

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

Meanwhile, I have a bunch of falsetas and exercises coming out through Mel Bay mixed with classical material of Cory Whitehead. This will be an extension of the stuff Juan Serrano put out years ago. So I will finally have a “method” book to point students to. I also have been writing a lot of my thoughts about music theory and flamenco and how it works together, which I will publish one day in the future.


Wow is this the Cory that was trolled to oblivion by J McGuire?

Jokes aside, I am actually interested in getting that book, could you provide a link?


I will advertise it when it is ready. We just finished the lay out a few days ago, but they want us to send audio examples that they put on the website, so I need to carve out some time to record all of them (there are a lot).

Yes Jason had a bad experience on a gig Cory hired his group for. I have always had a fine time with him and always appreciated the opportunity to go out to California and perform. Might go again in April. Cory picked up the gig as teacher from Juan Serrano, and while it might be true that he did not have the chops of most flamenco maestros, having been a pro classical guitarist and rock guitarist, however, when I went to Fresno I was impressed by the level of understanding his students had. Knowing he was not a great substitute for a pro flamenco maestro, but wanting to keep the tradition and curriculum alive at the school, he took it upon himself to take the class to Manolo Sanlucar’s course in Cordoba, and later headed out to Gerardo Nuñez’s curso. In my view, it takes a lot of humility and understanding to do that thing. Later he worked closely with Manolo (as you can see in Manolo’s documentary he embraces various foreign students in a big way). I am not afraid to disagree with any of Cory’s ideas, as I greatly respect what he has done at the school in Fresno. He authored a book with Juan Serrano years back to further the connections between Spanish classical guitar and flamenco, and when asked to do a part 2, Juan declined and said he was retired so he asked me to do it. He could have EASILY done the entire project himself. I consider both Jason and Cory good friends though they are on the other side of the continent, and it is a shame that they had a falling out. But these things are quite common in the small flamenco world we inhabit.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 18 2023 16:30:02
 
Ricardo

Posts: 15032
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: What are your goals re flamenco? (in reply to devilhand

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

quote:

I am actually interested in getting that book, could you provide a link?

You'll probably read something like spanish 6th. A term invented by him. Talking about aug6th, who applied it first to flamenco harmony?


No, I don’t talk theory in this book. It is a mix of repertoire, starting with Spanish classical pieces chosen by Cory, and then I provide a bunch of graduating exercises/falsetas/compas patterns, etc., that goes from beginner to advanced level. Stuff like you were trying to learn from Tanaka’s video will be in there. It is material I consider either “traditional” or that I have composed in a traditional style to get the ideas across that will help people from various levels learn. There is an underlying advanced concept that one could construct “pieces” by organizing the falsetas in order of personal taste according to palo/key/tempo, however, there will also be a second book that does this explicitly if students don’t want to try to do that themselves. I will explain the situation clearly when the books come out.

In regards to aug6th, the earliest I have seen on paper so far, is much earlier than flamenco guitar players. Maximo Lopez uses an Italian 6th several times in his variations on Fandangos for harpsichord, circa 1800. The most obvious spot being immediately following the copla in F major, he alternates between A major and Bb major ostinato in the bass, with a melody that goes F-E-D as a fast triplet, settling on G# on the third beat, over the Bb measure. In case you don’t understand, the third beat produces a chord spelled Bb-D, with G# on top. Technically, when the F natural is heard briefly, a German 6th is also produced. It is very fast but designed to resolve to A major, and repeats so is a very deliberate sound and function. (See attached photo, the left hand is in tenor clef, right hand treble clef, Bb implied). Because Bb/F moving to A/E in the left hand implies parallel 5ths, this is a starting point for distinguishing between a German and a Spanish usage (or even Italian or French vs. Spain).

Now you have the chicken or egg scenario: Is the keyboard player copying the guitarists or did the guitarists later get the idea from the keyboard? I lean in the direction that the tradition suggests…the guitar players did it first, and continued using it, and still do. In fact, I suspect the vihuelist/guitarist were busting parallel 5ths and such rules, long before 1800.

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 18 2023 17:09:12
 
Romerito

 

Posts: 53
Joined: Jan. 18 2023
 

RE: What are your goals re flamenco? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Maximo Lopez uses an Italian 6th several times in his variations on Fandangos for harpsichord, circa 1800. The most obvious spot being immediately following the copla in F major, he alternates between A major and Bb major ostinato in the bass, with a melody that goes F-E-D as a fast triplet, settling on G# on the third beat, over the Bb measure. In case you don’t understand, the third beat produces a chord spelled Bb-D, with G# on top. Technically, when the F natural is heard briefly, a German 6th is also produced. It is very fast but designed to resolve to A major, and repeats so is a very deliberate sound and function. (See attached photo, the left hand is in tenor clef, right hand treble clef, Bb implied). Because Bb/F moving to A/E in the left hand implies parallel 5ths, this is a starting point for distinguishing between a German and a Spanish usage (or even Italian or French vs. Spain).

Now you have the chicken or egg scenario: Is the keyboard player copying the guitarists or did the guitarists later get the idea from the keyboard? I lean in the direction that the tradition suggests…the guitar players did it first, and continued using it, and still do. In fact, I suspect the vihuelist/guitarist were busting parallel 5ths and such rules, long before 1800.

In all the facsimiles of Renaissance vihuela and baroque guitar, I have not found any augmented sixth chords. They create many other chord qualities for which they used the general terms FALSAS or DISSONANTES, but the augmented sixth is absent. It's not in Foscarini, Sanz, or De Murcia, at least, not in the pieces (Fandangos, Jacarás, Passacalles) that I've focused on. There is also no direct evidence in the pre-flamencos Parga and Arcas in the mid nineteenth century. Marin (1902) is also devoid of the Aug 6th chord. It is possible that I have missed them but I have folders of notes that I revisit.

My guess is that it was Montoya who first intuited the chord shape but never really articulated it in a way that shows an understanding of the individual voices that make the sonority. It's Sabicas who seems to pick the voices apart and not play just the chords. This raises the question of whether or not the chord can be called an Aug6th. Also, the inversion, dim3rd with the raised 6th in the bass, is absent.

Bach used the augmented sixth as did Scarlatti so it's possible that guitarists new the sonority and its use, and we just don't have documentation. But as of now, there does not seem to be direct evidence, especially now that demonstrates a causal and chronological relationship from other music to flamenco.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 18 2023 19:02:59
 
JasonM

Posts: 2089
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: What are your goals re flamenco? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

One weird thing I noticed, getting back into picking, was that I used to use heavy picks (.88 or heavier), but I got the .73 tortex and it is a huge difference. Much easier and better sound for fast picking stuff. It surprised me. But based on a funny video here, I gave it a try, see at 8:24:


Funny you mention that cause I always hated light picks and always used heavy. And just started to see the advantages of lighter picks. Helps to come back with a clean slate and open mind
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 18 2023 21:15:53
 
Ricardo

Posts: 15032
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: What are your goals re flamenco? (in reply to Romerito

quote:

It is possible that I have missed them but I have folders of notes that I revisit.


If I come across any I will send it your way. If Scarlatti used it, there is always slim chance he picked it up in Sevilla from guitar players. Felix would get it from Scarlatti. About modern flamenco guys, Montoya Sabicas etc, they copy the cante with their falsetas, to various degrees. Whenever a singer sings a G# over a Bb chord, before resolving to tonic, the chord and basic concept is occurring. Chacon was doing it, and I guess it is arguable which older singers were doing it. The cantes that use it are siguiriyas, Minera (Pedro el Morato, also Taranto), Granaina, and the intro for various Malagueñas and Cartageneras. It could very well be the case Montoya was the earliest to realize it was happening between guitar and voice, and manifests it at times in Siguiriyas or Solea etc., in falsetas. But I am surprised it is absent in any classical guitar stuff earlier. I will keep my eye out.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 18 2023 22:26:16
 
Romerito

 

Posts: 53
Joined: Jan. 18 2023
 

RE: What are your goals re flamenco? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

About modern flamenco guys, Montoya Sabicas etc, they copy the cante with their falsetas, to various degrees. Whenever a singer sings a G# over a Bb chord, before resolving to tonic, the chord and basic concept is occurring

Sure, but do you have concrete aural examples, either as accompaniment or solo?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 19 2023 3:22:43
 
zendalex

Posts: 137
Joined: Sep. 4 2010
From: New York area

RE: What are your goals re flamenco? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: zendalex

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

Meanwhile, I have a bunch of falsetas and exercises coming out through Mel Bay mixed with classical material of Cory Whitehead. This will be an extension of the stuff Juan Serrano put out years ago. So I will finally have a “method” book to point students to. I also have been writing a lot of my thoughts about music theory and flamenco and how it works together, which I will publish one day in the future.


Wow is this the Cory that was trolled to oblivion by J McGuire?

Jokes aside, I am actually interested in getting that book, could you provide a link?


I will advertise it when it is ready. We just finished the lay out a few days ago, but they want us to send audio examples that they put on the website, so I need to carve out some time to record all of them (there are a lot).

Yes Jason had a bad experience on a gig Cory hired his group for. I have always had a fine time with him and always appreciated the opportunity to go out to California and perform. Might go again in April. Cory picked up the gig as teacher from Juan Serrano, and while it might be true that he did not have the chops of most flamenco maestros, having been a pro classical guitarist and rock guitarist, however, when I went to Fresno I was impressed by the level of understanding his students had. Knowing he was not a great substitute for a pro flamenco maestro, but wanting to keep the tradition and curriculum alive at the school, he took it upon himself to take the class to Manolo Sanlucar’s course in Cordoba, and later headed out to Gerardo Nuñez’s curso. In my view, it takes a lot of humility and understanding to do that thing. Later he worked closely with Manolo (as you can see in Manolo’s documentary he embraces various foreign students in a big way). I am not afraid to disagree with any of Cory’s ideas, as I greatly respect what he has done at the school in Fresno. He authored a book with Juan Serrano years back to further the connections between Spanish classical guitar and flamenco, and when asked to do a part 2, Juan declined and said he was retired so he asked me to do it. He could have EASILY done the entire project himself. I consider both Jason and Cory good friends though they are on the other side of the continent, and it is a shame that they had a falling out. But these things are quite common in the small flamenco world we inhabit.


Ok thanks for the history lesson here. It was a bit disheartening to see Jason attacking the poor guy like he did. I was actually wondering why he picked on Cory in particular, but if there was an event which stipulated it - it makes way more sense. Cory seems like a nice and humble guy. I am sure he's made great contributions to the school in Fresno.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 19 2023 15:10:44
 
Ricardo

Posts: 15032
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: What are your goals re flamenco? (in reply to Romerito

quote:

ORIGINAL: Romerito

quote:

About modern flamenco guys, Montoya Sabicas etc, they copy the cante with their falsetas, to various degrees. Whenever a singer sings a G# over a Bb chord, before resolving to tonic, the chord and basic concept is occurring

Sure, but do you have concrete aural examples, either as accompaniment or solo?


Not sure what you mean EXACTLY…but for example this standard siguiriya, when they say “mi Corazon” as he does at 2:56, the melody note on the word “mi” dips below tonic, to a G#. If you slow the recording way down (like .25 if you must) you hear the sung “mi” G# on top of Javier’s Bb chord. That is, in essence, an aug6th chord, both literally and conceptually, as he says “corazon” on the tonic “A”. While I know his delivery is quick and it moves almost unnoticed, I am so darn familiar with various singers emphasizing that G# (and some even go flat to G natural), or with three notes, G#-Bb-A-A, “mi-Cor-a-zon”. So often or normalized it is that when I accompany singers, I also play a G# in the Bass, with this style and exact part of the letra. It is quite often the same lyric added “de mi Corazon” regardless whatever the rest of the letra words are, they sneak that in.

Now, javier does play a G# in his opening falseta conclusion at :29, mimicking the cante IMO, but there is no chord under it to give it a proper aug6th flavor. I mean I hear it in my mind because I understand the typical tension and release happening there. But I feel the mentality is already present in the cante/guitar relationship itself in this early period. (Tension release, in other words, you don’t see the G# emphasized over the tonic A chord, which would make it more like a simple melodic tension in the mode). Like I said before, you might be right that Montoya is the first to expressly play the interval in falsetas.



More obvious is this (though the guitar G chord is not clearly ringing, you understand the concept of course), at 2:24, he sings, over the G chord, the E# before resolving on F#:



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 19 2023 18:05:37
 
Romerito

 

Posts: 53
Joined: Jan. 18 2023
 

RE: What are your goals re flamenco? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Not sure what you mean EXACTLY…but for example this standard siguiriya, when they say “mi Corazon” as he does at 2:56, the melody note on the word “mi” dips below tonic, to a G#. If you slow the recording way down (like .25 if you must) you hear the sung “mi” G# on top of Javier’s Bb chord. That is, in essence, an aug6th chord, both literally and conceptually, as he says “corazon” on the tonic “A”. While I know his delivery is quick and it moves almost unnoticed, I am so darn familiar with various singers emphasizing that G# (and some even go flat to G natural), or with three notes, G#-Bb-A-A, “mi-Cor-a-zon”. So often or normalized it is that when I accompany singers, I also play a G# in the Bass, with this style and exact part of the letra. It is quite often the same lyric added “de mi Corazon” regardless whatever the rest of the letra words are, they sneak that in.

Now, javier does play a G# in his opening falseta conclusion at :29, mimicking the cante IMO, but there is no chord under it to give it a proper aug6th flavor. I mean I hear it in my mind because I understand the typical tension and release happening there. But I feel the mentality is already present in the cante/guitar relationship itself in this early period. (Tension release, in other words, you don’t see the G# emphasized over the tonic A chord, which would make it more like a simple melodic tension in the mode). Like I said before, you might be right that Montoya is the first to expressly play the interval in falsetas.

Yeah, that does not do it for me. Eventually the guitarists pick up the fact that they can include the g# either as a passing not from root position g minor to A which then gets reified as a dim3rd, or as a passing not above a g minor in first inversion (a true augmented sixth). That's why I noted that Montoya plays that F7 (SHAPE) to E in his solea but it does not really seem like he is aware of the MANY relations between the voices and the use of the raised sixth degree. It looks more like he is just using a chord shape that leaves the pinky free and it happens to sound good. Sabicas on the other hand, seems to be aware of the inversions of the chord and does not use just the full chord but implies voice leading in a single line.

The raised sixth degree was used as far back as the Baroque but the sonorities in many compositions were a result of voice leading, NOT chord construction and progression. The idea is there but it's not fully formed yet. I don't think the augmented sixth family really began to be used until mid-century (20th) if that.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 19 2023 22:04:50
 
Ricardo

Posts: 15032
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: What are your goals re flamenco? (in reply to Romerito

quote:

That's why I noted that Montoya plays that F7 (SHAPE) to E in his solea


Under a barre I understand your point (it can be argued that it is incidental), but he has another one in the Same solea voiced F bass, A open, D# on D string, that is deliberate.

Not sure why you want to nit pick about dim3rd (inversion)vs aug6 above the bass, there is no need for a flamenco to follow those rules to accept the concept harmonically is THE SAME regardless where in the voicing structure the thing happens. But if you have to see the aug6 above the bass move to tonic, here are two examples at :41 G7 (F natural would be E# above G) to F#major, also at 1:03 right after the tremolo. It is very deliberate and you can hear the tension resolve as it should, however I recommend slowing the examples way down:



Of course there are many more examples like that, including :20 of the same piece with E# bass under the G chord and melody, or Granaina his C/A# resolving to B major, but those are dim3 situation again. I don’t see the point to split hairs on the concept if it obviously happening deliberately and frequently in Montoya’s music. I admit I am surprised Arcas etc. does not use it at all.

_____________________________

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 19 2023 22:09:32
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