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Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
Passing chords used for Cante
This subject came up in the cante accompaniment thread and I felt it was too big of a subject to open there. So the question is can we or would we use approach chords or passing chords when accompanying the cante, and while I would simply say “no”, this begs the question, why not? And haven’t we seen the maestros doing this? Etc. So Lets start with this guys video which I believe was referenced:
So we see if we are familiar with a basic melody (imagine the cante por solea, pick a style), the rules of music or theory allow us to treat the melody with various harmonies, starting with basic diatonic chords, and advancing using secondary dominants, and finally using borrowed chords from other keys that share the note of the melody. So to what degree do we do this or not with cante? Lets begin with the basic first line of several traditional styles of cante por solea where we see options at work. The most basic is when the melody leads us from E to A por arriba, and we treat it with E7-Am traditionally. I want to recall an old argument that ended ugly regarding this issue:
To summarize, there is a claim made that comes from Manolo Sanlucar that using this harmony for Solea is some sort of violation of the form….obviously that is at odds with the tradition but begs the question why does he take issue with this? And further, it implies that the traditional guitarists are “ignorant” of the music theory he has learned himself and therefore the dictates of the tradition should not be blindly followed as they could be in error. As an outsider who has the exact opposite trajectory as him (I already knew theory then learned about flamenco, where as he was born into the genre and learned theory much later) I totally get where he is coming from. He has learned about tonality vs modality and realized that the mixing of the concepts that goes on in flamenco might be a serious issue. He advocates for an extremely old origin source for flamenco (Ancient Greek) and wants the concept of purity to follow forward to the modern era where himself and his own music picks up the thread. In a modal concept of E phrygian, the movement to Am disturbs the modal purity of E phrygian (even if you want the mode to mean Phrygian Dominant). It clearly establishes the sound or tonality of A MINOR, relative to where we started supposedly, and takes away from the weight of the E tonic.
To sort of reinforce his opinion I would simply point out that if we transpose to por medio, A phrygian, it is often that the same exact cante is effectively accompanied by guitarists that use Bb instead of Dm. Understanding basic theory we can see how as a substitute chord it works fine. Some guitarists might even think of the chord Bb over a D bass string ringing as actually not a Bb chord in inversion, but a D minor chord with a flat 6th in the voicing, so not much of a difference conceptually. Now we imagine that special Bb chord we play where we allow the open G string and the open E string to ring inside the voicing. Here we again understand it as a basic “Bb chord” with special open string tension produced that gives us a nice flamenco guitar sound. However, technically speaking, this chord is spelled from E as EGBbDF…..so minus the F note we see the Em7b5 chord that Manolo Sanlucar points us to (in por Arriba that is the Bm7b5 chord). It includes the F (b9th degree) however is the chord he prefers in inversion. In his mind, I believe, this harmony instead of plain Dminor, steers the ear AWAY from the gravity of Dm as a key center, and keeps us grounded in the true form tonic of A phrygian.
Having sort of justified his opinion, let me now say that he is simply wrong to poo poo the traditional practice of have the OPTION to use vanilla A7-Dm and other simple harmonies to accompany the cante. To my ear and understanding it is clear that flamenco guitarists have always been using (as far back as we know with historical evidence) tonal harmony to accompany the cantes of various palos, and Solea/Siguiriya is no different when we take into account the cambio parts of the letras. They that obey the tradtion are following a “blueprint” of song form structure, just like the blues has a structure that is adhered to, with various options for substitution. Regardless of where that comes from, it is wrong to try to impose this middle eastern modal concept onto the thing IMO. So now, what about the 3000 extra chords we should be able to use and why not?
Again, there are these blue prints that allow certain options and not others. We as students need to first learn these and how to apply the map to the various cantes, simply because unlike Somewhere over the Rainbow, the cantaor can deliver the melody rhythmically differently as they please, so the map has to adjust to the lyrical delivery. If we are NOT doing this, then we are using the square box concept of cante that many dancers impose on those melodies. In those cases, where the melody will always be delivered the exact same way, then yes we could in theory impose outside harmonies. In fact many modern cant recordings have been doing those things for years, but in comparison to the tradition this is contrived. The idea is the cante SHOULD have the freedom the tradtion developed and we guitarists stick to the basic maps or run the risk of not accompanying so much as simply playing an arrangement. So in the end it is a taste issue.
Of course outside of strict cante accompaniments modern flamenco guitar SOLOISTS have enjoyed exploring for decades now, the extra harmonies and options that tonal harmony allows.
As for cantes de la Minas, I would admit the secondary dominants and such are already “baked in” to the original blue prints of those cantes, or have evolved recently (as i pointed out with picaros tartaneros), such that they have already become a part of the basic map.
RE: Passing chords used for Cante (in reply to Ricardo)
Keni Parker in the Bay Area calls ‘leading tones’ ( passing chords) The Bleeding Tones. 😂 He’s always talking about how you don’t need them in the wide open sense of cante accompanying outside the baile box.
Did I ever tell you that Gerardo N. nick named him ‘Jurassic Parker’? Well, apparently it’s not bad to be Jurassic in traditional non baile cante accompaniment chord mapping. If I’m understanding your drift.
RE: Passing chords used for Cante (in reply to Ricardo)
Ricardo,
Short and simple, I would use passing chords or approach chords. When doing for cante, I found myself having to explain to the cantaor why my subs work. They older cats don't like it, I get it, change is hard for them.
The guy in the vid talks about tonic and chords that can be used to sub the tonic, and the rest fall into dominant territory. If that works for him great.
In this situation/scheme(diatonic chords), I would use the harmonic areas of tonic, sub-dominant and dominant:
Tonic: I, iii, vi Sub-Dominant: IV, ii, vi Dominant: V and vii
Just with this scheme cantaores and singers start to trip on me. Example... I had a tablao gig where the singer wanted to do Sevillanas in Emaj. So basic copla structure would go Emaj/I, to Amaj/IV to Emaj/I to B7/V end on Emaj/I
What I did that made them trip:
First go around: I - IV - I - V - ! Second go around: I - ii - vi - V and quickly also give them Fmaj7(tritone) to I or even end on vi. Every time I played this round I would also try different extensions etc..etc... etc...
I can use secondary doms, tri-tones, modal inter change etc... but very minimal. Now you're really asking for the side eye.
The singers/cantaores didnt like it at all until we sat down and I had the singer/cantaor sing the tonos and hold as I played the chord they wanted to hear along with its subs then their ear was able to accept the sub. I guess in a way, what I think what happens, as I write this and think about it. Its assimilation or development and acceptance of new dissonance etc of new chords that support their voice like the og chord they hear in their mind....????
side note:
Barry Harris thats one bad mofo and wish I could have studied with him. The vids of peeps I've seen break down his teachings are good but the vids I've seen of Barry teach himself is on another whole level man... Dude taught Miles, Coltrane etc.... Just a bad mofo and one I plan on studying, maybe I will apply his principles one day to my playing be it cante, solo or baile.
Anyways good post man, something I've thought about. The purists will think its sacrilege, ni modo, all I can do is move forward
RE: Passing chords used for Cante (in reply to Ricardo)
Singers that get worked up about passing chords in Sevillanas are possibly new to singing? The well worn E-A-B-7 changes are commonly sweetened up with passing tones today sevillanas because you have to play the copla four times and everyone seems relieved that there are transitional chords to give it some variation. Even if you play four coplas in different keys.
I listen to and enjoy many different types of music but only in flamenco am I drawn to play the guitar - I am not a guitarist. As Lucas Brar goes up his 5 levels, I appreciate and enjoy the complexity but in my subjective taste I prefer to play the level 1 or 2 baby music!
I play the E7 to Am change because I hear it being done so often by maestros. It's fun to play this change on the guitar, but perhaps my ear and taste actually prefers the other options described. As far as I understand the Manolo Sanlucar 'lethal' to the E phrygian mode argument: is it because the E7 is dominant to A, that E7 sets up experiencing the Am as a tone change. Whereas going from the E to Am is ok because it doesn't disturb/pull out of the E phrygian mode? Or is it that any Am on beat 10 is 'lethal' because that close on 10 is experienced as change to Am tone?
I am interested to learn it's ok to sometimes choose other options than E7>Am, to choose less harmony and have more atonal rhythm. However I can also understand the point Ricardo made back in the 2010 thread he linked "...often the guitar is not really harmonizing so much as giving clear compas markers by change chords. that these changes actually help punctuate the rhythm."
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Passing chords used for Cante (in reply to mt1007)
quote:
Second go around: I - ii - vi - V and quickly also give them Fmaj7(tritone) to I or even end on vi.
Cool story about your experience. A couple things…sevillanas as an example is not great because it has a rhythmical map built in, ie it is born in the square box unlike flamenco cantes. So they don’t improvise the structure at all, it is almost always the same except in special cases. Same goes for any “songs” that flamenco artists interpret such as buleria cuple and rumbas etc, where the set song structure totally allows the guitar to explore the options.
But ignore that for now, the practical problems for people trying what you describe is that you have to know the melody very well and how the singers might change it. Some times in Sevillanas there are harmony vocal parts and I have heard singers jump to harmony voices and such. They are expecting the same rueda of chords when they do that. But, for example you cant’ do that tritone sub if they are ending the melody notes 3-2-1. It only works nicely if they resolve the melody 5-4-3. Next, by ending on vi (and I get that you would only do that on say one of the middle two tercios not the final), would definitely jolt the singer’s inner sensibility, as it is a “cambio” of the fundamental. I would personally avoid that one myself out of principle.
In the end if you have a cantaor WILLING to sit and experiment that is great, but the guitarist’s job is simply to make the singer feel comfortable on stage. I do this thing myself that singers had to get used in this regard, and of course they can get used to whatever. If it is a first time experience then it can disturb them. Same thing for the half compas situations.
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Passing chords used for Cante (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
Keni Parker in the Bay Area calls ‘leading tones’ ( passing chords) The Bleeding Tones. 😂 He’s always talking about how you don’t need them in the wide open sense of cante accompanying outside the baile box.
Taste always plays a big part, but it also helps to get into other peoples shoes a bit. So as an accompanist only, with guitar in hand, like the options we discuss here, it makes sense and it is “fun” to cram in some extra chords at times that seem to “help” the situation. However, lets say I am improvising on Rio ancho or something, making up my own melodies over the progression. It is inevitable that some wise guy backing me up changes Em7-Am7-D7-G7-Fmaj7 etc to E7-Am7, A7-D7, D7 flat whatever you want to Gmaj7, C7-F7 dominant etc… I get that is very colorful in the mind of the accompanist, but as the soloist, it clashes with my own ideas of how to neatly stitch the chords with a nice melodic line. It is frankly annoying as hell when it happens. I deal with it in the moment if i must and start cramming in my super locrican speed runs, but in the end there is a different application for that to my tastes that makes it “special”.
now that i have gotten into singing, just rumbas basic stuff, same deal. I hear these approach chords affecting the “sweetness” of the pure original melody and chord relation and it disturbs me to the core. But not all the time, it is in certain situations where my mind goes “ok dude NOT THERE, the the other spot was fine, you just killed it”.
Posts: 1945
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: Passing chords used for Cante (in reply to Ricardo)
From a jazz perspective the accompanist has it backwards. He is supposed to wait until the soloist implies the subs or altered tones and then supply the corresponding chords. As a practical matter however, I’ve been guilty of adding chords to simple progressions when backing people playing extended solos, both to try to avoid boredom for the audience and myself, and to try to inspire the soloist. As a bandleader I had that leeway. As a sideman I wouldn’t do it. I don’t have enough experience playing for flamenco singers to consider doing it on the fly.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
Keni Parker in the Bay Area calls ‘leading tones’ ( passing chords) However, lets say I am improvising on Rio ancho or something, making up my own melodies over the progression. It is inevitable that some wise guy backing me up changes Em7-Am7-D7-G7-Fmaj7 etc to E7-Am7, A7-D7, D7 flat whatever you want to Gmaj7, C7-F7 dominant etc… I get that is very colorful in the mind of the accompanist, but as the soloist, it clashes with my own ideas of how to neatly stitch the chords with a nice melodic line. It is frankly annoying as hell when it happens. I deal with it in the moment if i must and start cramming in my super locrican speed runs, but in the end there is a different application for that to my tastes that makes it “special”.
now that i have gotten into singing, just rumbas basic stuff, same deal. I hear these approach chords affecting the “sweetness” of the pure original melody and chord relation and it disturbs me to the core. But not all the time, it is in certain situations where my mind goes “ok dude NOT THERE, the the other spot was fine, you just killed it”.
RE: Passing chords used for Cante (in reply to Ricardo)
I saw the first time Jesus Montoya and Kenny met. It was a Thursday night at the Albatross bar in Berkeley. Singers who came to town for gigs would frequently stop there at Keni’s solo gig because he was known in the community and region as someone who was solid at cante accompaniment.
So Jesus ( recently died and this is very sad) stopped in. He was a bit hesitant, but Keni convinced him to sing a bit. Jesus took Keni for a test drive. He sang por Buleria and kept changing the keys he was singing in. He’d sing a couple Letras and then modulate into another key. Finally after about ten or twelve minutes of this Jesus wraps it up. He ended up singing primarily por medio, but he went into Am, Em, F#m ( Taranto key) E maj. por arriva ect. and somewhere else I’m sure. He threw the book at Keni.
When Jesus was done he looked at Keni and says with astonishment. Hombre you followed me everywhere! To which Keni shrugged his shoulders and says Hombre, of course.
He didn’t use any bleeding tones. 😂 it was all farmer chords right on target.
I could see it happening, Keni would play por medio and Jesus would depart from it after a couple letras and Keni listen carefully and it was like he was saying to himself- oh I see you want to go over there. Then he’d do marcaje for a few beats and change direction with his left hand and keep the compas marked the same, unless Jesus sang in sixes or chopped it off in a odd place.
RE: Passing chords used for Cante (in reply to Ricardo)
So I guess Ricardo is that now you’re learning to sing and you are getting a dose of your own passing tone medicine served back to you. But you’re doing a preemptive strike on guitar guilt by explaining how passing tones mess with singers minds. 😂
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Passing chords used for Cante (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
So I guess Ricardo is that now you’re learning to sing and you are getting a dose of your own passing tone medicine served back to you. But you’re doing a preemptive strike on guitar guilt by explaining how passing tones mess with singers minds. 😂
Yes…but it is not so bad as it sounds because I considered myself fairly conservative as an accompanist. In almost all cases I played the chord requested by the singer in rehearsal if the one I used at first was unfamiliar. Esperanza wanted the G chord where an F should go in Malagueña, for example. I never wanted to rock the boat when it came to accompanying cante. But getting into those shoes for a bit really changes the perspective.
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