Foro Flamenco
Posts Since Last Visit | Advanced Search | Home | Register | Login

Today's Posts | Inbox | Profile | Our Rules | Contact Admin | Log Out



Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods and David Serva who went ahead of us too soon.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.





RE: future of flamenco   You are logged in as Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >>Discussions >>General >> Page: <<   <   1 2 3 [4] 5    >   >>
Login
Message<< Newer Topic  Older Topic >>
 
qzack

 

Posts: 39
Joined: Aug. 17 2011
 

RE: future of flamenco (in reply to RobF

quote:

quote:

We need new flamenco, urban flamenco, fusion flamenco, indie flamenco, dance flamenco, avant garde flamenco, experimental flamenco or whatever other labels they come up with.
do "we"? sounds like a lot of marketing gimmicks to me. When a new form of music emerges it usually gets a name, but often it seems like what is happening is new "labels" are being invented before the music they are supposed to describe has barely emerged let alone developed sufficient to warrant a name...


As someone came from a place where we they can’t distinguish between a Mariachi Band, Arab Oud and Flamenco, sadly at least we need the label somehow. In my place, the growth of puro is little to no existence and if not, it’s just painstakingly slow as I tend to find myself become lonely at times and some aficionados tend to stuck to earlier days of Paco de Lucia and Sabicas without knowing there are others that developed the genre like Vicente, Gerado Núñez and Antonio Rey for example. At least to draw in an initial attention, we need anything that classified in the quoted labels mentioned there just keeping everyone in track but then SOMEBODY has to go hand-in-hand with that and offers something else with almost similar audience coverage (although it hasn’t happened yet in my local case)

At least, from where I come, more and more aficionados are found due to this although (surely) not as many as I would expect. The very slow growth, I argue, because by having too much EDM Flamenco (let’s say) without someone else offering the other “proper form” hinder the idea of introducing Flamenco in the first place. Hence, we’re just getting stuck and people keep thinking that Flamenco, in essence, is just a guitar passage in minor modes and someone who sings like Arab and then then moved on to whatever offered in the recurring top 40 list

The niche community however, could get stuck as well if nobody tries hand-in-hand with the trend to play and inspire the newly found aficionados. Else, like us, they will keep getting stuck with Rumba and something came from old Sabicas/Paco Peña videos.

quote:

Bill, I don’t know how one could listen to her latest album and call it fraudulent. It’s got nothing to do with flamenco (except for one piece). That journalist who called it neo-flamenco is an idiot. She doesn’t call it flamenco or she’d be an idiot, too. But she’s not. No way.

She also has no obligation to walk around in sack-cloth apologizing to the world for every nitwit that mislabels her arte. It’s not her problem, she has nothing to apologize for, she has a right to create and the rest of the world can do what they want with it.


Apparently, in my case locally, Rosalía was regarded as “brave” enough to detach from her Flamenco “roots” by traversing much within EDM instead focusing on the strangest track to their ears and explore as some online amateur critics says. It indicates that these critics doesn’t have any open gesture for appreciating any move from Rosalía to develop more “Bulerias tracks” in the future as they tend to focus more on her EDM iterations to freshen the overly generic latin-pop scene. I rarely find someone who highlighted her “flamenco” pieces more than her other album tracks
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 2 2022 2:32:06
 
RobF

Posts: 1318
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: future of flamenco (in reply to qzack

quote:

At least to draw in an initial attention, we need anything that classified in the quoted labels mentioned there just keeping everyone in track but then SOMEBODY has to go hand-in-hand with that and offers something else with almost similar audience coverage (although it hasn’t happened yet in my local case)

At least, from where I come, more and more aficionados are found due to this although (surely) not as many as I would expect. The very slow growth, I argue, because by having too much EDM Flamenco (let’s say) without someone else offering the other “proper form” hinder the idea of introducing Flamenco in the first place.


That’s a good point and it’s also refreshing to get the perspective from your locale.

I have to wonder why flamenco hasn’t taken more of a hold where you are, however, which I’m assuming is in a Spanish speaking americas country. My thought is the language barrier is less so the Canté should be more accessible, which should make a big difference. But, I guess another side of it is Spain is a European country and there simply may not be any cultural association with them in your locale at the grassroots level. Of course, there are successful Spanish flamenco artists, like José Mercé and Cigala, who have intentionally targeted the latin markets, but they’ve done so with respect and reverence, and I think that’s been recognized and rewarded. But they might be too old for the EDM crowd. Almost certainly are.

At any rate, hopefully you’ll find more aficionados in your locale, and also you can possibly help it’s growth, too.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 2 2022 3:16:09
 
Piwin

Posts: 3451
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: future of flamenco (in reply to RobF

quote:

It shows an unwillingness to look at the big picture


The big picture is that we are living through a period of mass extinction. That's true biologically, it's true linguistically, and it's true culturally, and thus musically.

I don't particularly care about discussions on individual responsibility (17 years of brain washing by religious extremists and I've had enough judging and being judged to last a lifetime or two), but, whether the responsibility lie with her, her PR, the audience or whoever else, some people are seeing in her rise to success the same mechanics they've seen countless times before, preceding the disappearance of a musical genre, a language, a culture, etc. And when the cause is too murky to identify, sometimes you lash out at the symptom. So goes it.

_____________________________

"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 2 2022 5:27:52
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3359
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: future of flamenco (in reply to RobF

quote:

Also, I want to say just because I disagree with Bill, Konstantin, Ricardo and probably the majority of the people who come on here when it comes to Rosalía doesn’t mean I’m not crazy about you all. I highly respect and value your opinions.


Thanks, Rob. The feeling is mutual. It is always a pleasure to discuss and debate issues with you. Even when we disagree, you always keep it at a civilized level among friends.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 2 2022 13:31:54
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13515
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: future of flamenco (in reply to RobF

quote:

I just don’t understand the hatred. She has been attacked more than once on this forum for a perceived lack of talent and ability. Why? How does that hold any bearing on her body of work? Does it not have the right to exist on its own merit?
My take is Rosalía has every right to do as she pleases with her arte and if flamenco can’t handle it, then f*ck flamenco. It’s nother problem. It’s also not the problem of those who enjoy her music. They don’t have any obligations.


When I was a teenager I got to hear Paco and Mclaughlin etc. A rock guitar magazine happened to have an interview and, already being a bit terrified by the level of musicianship these guys had, I felt his words had so much depth and even strange things to chew on. I did not really understand him at the time but they made an impression on me, and over the years I have seen how they ring true. What he said in the interview was about learning music and working very hard on it. He said being a musician was a great privilege and also a great responsibility. My thinking at the time was “why? Cant we just do whatever the hell we want? What is this about? It is not some religious dogma!” He also said there is no true freedom in music without discipline. These ideas at the time seemed all very counter to reality.

But it turns out, you have to go down some rabbit hole first to understand the profound statements he made. He was right, and there are some people out there that don’t get it. I give them the benefit of the doubt because there is always time…time to redeem one’s self in the eyes of those that have travelled farther down which ever pathway. Many people are scared about that path, and stay meandering around at the entry way. I understand that…it is scary. Scary to find out the truth about yourself and where you stand in the bigger picture. All these mediocre artists gain commercial success by appealing to many with the lowest understanding. But THEY know it themselves, and either the Ego protects them or they get depressed and start killing themselves, fast or slow. But there is no need for that. The path is there to go down whenever they are ready and along the way are both those that will check them, and those that will encourage them.

When people talk about “it’s not flamenco so what is the big deal?”, it just tells me there is a disconnect, and it is frustrating when the people saying that are people we might care about, because we want to encourage people and educate them in the good or special things. It is very easy for me to ignore Rosalia as I have done after flamenco people first pointed out (in disgust) what she was doing. This was long before her pop dance music success (which is not surprising, of course, she is not bad looking). The problem was, at first, the guitar player. And realizing what she was doing was deliberate was, frankly, insulting. But as I said, there is always time for redemption. She has the tools necessary, but many people don’t even get WHY should she need to do such a thing. That is the disconnect. The example I just showed, people don’t get it. She sounds fine. Is it flamenco? Of freaking COURSE it is! Once you go with that much specific deep dive into the genre, you don’t get to just turn around and so “Oh, I am just having fun here doing my personal thing, this isn’t really flamenco”. It is too late for that. Neither is it “fraudulent” or whatever. It is a specific thing and either you understand what she is doing there or you don’t, and if you really do, well…it is hurtfully insulting. But if you don’t then everything is fine, and next on the playlist is chicken teriyaki. Cool.

So I guess I have repeated myself at this point, so I will just move on to exploring the music that challenges me.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 2 2022 15:49:55
 
RobF

Posts: 1318
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: future of flamenco (in reply to Ricardo

It looks like we’re coming full circle to the initial comments that were made in the post from years ago when I first mentioned Rosalía’s name in this forum. I think there are areas where fundamentally we’ll always disagree, because I pretty well disagree with the bulk of what you just said. And it’s not due to some lack of understanding or insight on my part. I don’t accept that premise and I don’t know why anyone should. I appreciate the commitment you have made towards not just flamenco, but also to patiently helping people along in their musical journeys, and I admire and respect you for that. But in this case, I simply do not agree with you. I understand and sympathize, but while you may think I’m missing some form of deeper truth, I just see your viewpoint as being wrongheaded.

I’m sorry about this and it saddens me. I don’t come here to fight or insult, but neither will I accept backhanded censure or belittlement.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 2 2022 16:33:22
 
JasonM

Posts: 1853
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: future of flamenco (in reply to Morante

What about other young canteoras besides Rosalia?

Something I’ve noticed is that a lot of them are emulating Nina Pastori. I find this annoying because I don’t like Pastori, but also because I wish they would inject their own voice in there. At least Rosalia doesn’t sound like Nina Pastori!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 2 2022 20:01:16
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3246
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: future of flamenco (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

I had a discussion with some Cantaores years ago about her. They were somewhat on the fence about her and felt she was “ok” as a singer, and just doing the typical experimental thing that many including Cigala do. So to point out how “skilled” and knowledgeable she was I showed them her malagueña, and they were all impressed.

Then I showed them the original version of that letra and these guys started crying, realizing how great the old maestros really are.

(SNIP)

It is about expression and taste. I want to hear Pena Hijo’s version of chicken teriyaki to be objective.


Of course, taste is inherently subjective. Rosalía's version makes me imagine someone stumbling across a written transcription of the piece, reproducing the notes without any hint of its emotional significance.

Also of course, I have no idea what Rosalía's intention may have been. Whatever it was, I was offended by the midi-like guitar part, and the extended period of wordless vocalization at the end, which came off to me as incoherent moaning to a clichéd tune.

It reminds of a performance by John Williams, the immensely successful classical guitarist. To me Williams displays two contradictory modes. In one mode he seems to feel an emotional connection to the music, and displays it with pristine virtuousity. In the other mode he seems completely to lack any connection to the piece, and displays it with pristine virtuosity.

After a long and utterly boring sequence of South American genre pieces, played without the faintest nuance of expression or rhythmic swing, Williams played the Ciaccona (Chaconne) from Bach's 2nd Violin Partita, without any hint of emotion.

After the concert I complained.

"Maybe he was just having a bad night," a friend replied.

"Playing the Ciaccona like that is like applying a coat of whitewash to the Sistine Chapel," I groused.

Mairena performed the Mellizo malagueña with emotion and respect. Rocío Marquez copied Chacon note for note, but with feeling and expression.

I don't know what Rosalía was up to, but it annoyed me.

I kind of liked "Chicken Teriyaki," though.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 2 2022 22:16:38
 
RobF

Posts: 1318
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: future of flamenco (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

What he said in the interview was about learning music and working very hard on it. He said being a musician was a great privilege and also a great responsibility.


I just want to add, the quote from Paco or John is pretty well based on the concept of noblesse oblige, or maybe they picked it up while reading Spider-Man comics in the tour bus. Who knows? I don’t disagree with it, and I think we’ve got to grab our epiphanies where we can get them. It’s just where the concept is being taken when it comes to this discussion about Rosalía that we part ways. Not just with Rosalía, I have difficulty accepting the invalidation or rejection of any artist. I don’t think I’ve presented my views very effectively during this discussion, and for that I apologize.

At this point I think I’ll recuse myself from any future discussions about Rosalía. I, too, have better things to do with my time.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 2 2022 23:34:17
 
Arash

Posts: 4481
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: future of flamenco (in reply to Ricardo

the guitar player is something else lmao

https://youtu.be/6O192OAzMH8?t=248

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 5 2022 12:10:49
 
Stu

Posts: 2076
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: future of flamenco (in reply to Arash

haha! Yeah like in a trance!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 5 2022 16:47:41
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3402
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: future of flamenco (in reply to Arash

quote:

the guitar player is something else lmao


I can't really comment on the guitar player without offending modern sensibilities....

and the video youtube played after the one you posted was even worse. I think he was trying to play alegrías, but he sounded like a very tense beginner with no sense of compás, time, rhythm or musicality.

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 5 2022 17:02:47
 
kitarist

Posts: 1551
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: future of flamenco (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

beginner with no sense of compás, time, rhythm or musicality


My PhD supervisor once told me about something that happened between his mentor and another doctoral student. The student brought a draft paper to get the professor's feedback. After a while without a word back, he asked what is happening. The professor replied "Umm, it is good.. apart from the science and the English."

_____________________________

Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 5 2022 17:49:57
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3246
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: future of flamenco (in reply to mark indigo

A brief notice in the New Yorker of a scheduled Rosalia performance, among many others in the Fall Preview section, described her as a "neoflamenco" artist.

Sounds to me like it was lifted from a PR blurb issued by her manager/promoter--a disservice to El Arte.

A couple of years ago I went to a performance by Jose Luis de la Paz, accompanied by a percussionist. The drummer used a full jazz/pop style drum kit as well as a cajon. He was a full partner to the guitarist. His rhythmic contribution was subtle, highly complex, and radical in its originality. I had to work at it, but the compás could be detected. I wouldn't have minded if they had called it "neoflamenco." To me it was serious stuff.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 5 2022 21:25:49
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3359
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: future of flamenco (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

A brief notice in the New Yorker of a scheduled Rosalia performance, among many others in the Fall Preview section, described her as a "neoflamenco" artist.

Sounds to me like it was lifted from a PR blurb issued by her manager/promoter--a disservice to El Arte.


As I noted in my comment up-thread, that's exactly what the Washington Post music critic, Chris Richards, in his ignorance, called her. Assuming Rosalia's PR machine/manager/promoter is putting out this nonsense, by acquiescing in and agreeing to this description of her
as a "neo-flamenco" artist, she is willfully participating in this disservice to El Arte.

In short, she is committing fraud, i.e., passing off her music as something it is not--flamenco. It is not actionable fraud to be taken to court, but it is fraud nevertheless. And it is shameful.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 6 2022 0:55:26
 
qzack

 

Posts: 39
Joined: Aug. 17 2011
 

RE: future of flamenco (in reply to RobF

quote:

I have to wonder why flamenco hasn’t taken more of a hold where you are , however, which I’m assuming is in a Spanish speaking americas country.


it's even worse I came very far from Spain: Indonesia. So I guess not much to expect from my place when it comes to Flamenco flourishing here whether within a small sustainable community (yet) or even somehow attract the mainstream industry to listen

quote:

My thought is the language barrier is less so the Canté should be more accessible


Although there's a clear language barrier but so does K-Pop here (and perhaps nearly everywhere?). Actually, there's a steady small communities that enjoy Bollywood pop without knowing what the lyric means. I guess what Cante has to offer is its expressiveness and emotional depth which most might find too foreign and wouldn't image someone singing as if they're wailing and crying not even in a pop sense.

what's interesting however, is that the solo toque is more popular than the cante here despite people keep confusing Flamenco over Classical guitar (or even Mariachi, Rumba and even Despacito )

quote:

José Mercé and Cigala, who have intentionally targeted the latin markets, but they’ve done so with respect and reverence, and I think that’s been recognized and rewarded. But they might be too old for the EDM crowd. Almost certainly are.


What they've been doing is fantastic at least to myself. It's certainly true that they might be too old for youngsters which is the future of the market as the industry doesn't care too much with older segments. However, at least Rosalia did something that picked up an interest in Flamenco after a long long disappearance of interest for (say)... Desperado movie that somehow sway people in the end to listen to Andalucian Flamenco. Interestingly enough, Rosalia was promoting a solo cante with compas nudillos so there's no guitar there yet it presented itself as flamenco-enough to my local audience
______________

Newer aficionados rather mostly emerged from listening to artists like Rodrigo y Gabriela, Gypsy Kings and Rosalia mostly or anyone that sounded alike. But then, there's only a very small few that play falsetas and knowing some palos. If there's any then it must be fewer from a few and then they have this lack of "incentivizing-community" where people are reluctant to spend a dime for a performance in the first place. So these few players are stuck in club/restaurant-paid gigs where they cannot introduce more flamenco and there's no overseas interest to even tap into my local market of 250 million listeners for let's say.. introducing cante or baile so then flamenco can fully introduce itself properly.

The momentum was somehow always almost gone when someone brought the real deal into the scene. For example, I was shocked to find out that Gerardo Núñez was once in Indonesia giving a workshop but then there's just NO ONE dedicating themselves to play like him long afterwards. We just got stuck because people have this premature notion that PdL or Paco Peña songs are all there is for us. As long as you can play one of their song then that's all Flamenco that can give us.

On the other hand, some others who just use "flamenco" as a label.. somehow flourish within the community either only for the sake of personal branding or just an addition. Meaning, they play.. something like this



or this



and what does the market say? they're regarded as a guitar god and even endorsing these two for numerous reaction videos. The word "flamenco" sure flies within local segment but then there's little to no demand for more of "flamenco" than these two like no one can do much more that those

Whereas the ones that practice and play palos everyday, they often still get stuck by attaching themselves to other welcoming segments like Jazz clubs, Classical Auditorium etc and almost isolated from the audience that drives the interest in the first place

Without taking too much deep dive on "cultural-responsibility", in the end a market is a market. The very foundation of it I suppose one of them is to make use of the momentum well where players and listeners can exchange ideas and commentaries within the rise of the awareness in the genre so then it may lead into something more and building up more and more aficionados. Indonesia has known flamenco from 60s but then look at where we are now. To me honestly, it has been 60 years of disappointment by finding little to no local Flamenco artists sprung from anywhere, let alone expecting the local market contribute in the development.

This is perhaps, with a really high hope, until someone can market in the way familiar and interesting enough so then everyone get shocked and rethink of what flamenco really has to offer and kickstart the development. I believe, if not, then we'll just keep encountering many Rosalia in the future while "the real deal" is going to be (sadly) underlooked like it's always been
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 6 2022 9:10:55
 
RobF

Posts: 1318
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: future of flamenco (in reply to qzack

Thank you for your thoughtful posts, qzack. I have a nephew living in Semarang who married an Indonesian girl and they now have a beautiful son. He teaches and, gathering from his FB posts, is very active in the community. I believe he converted to be able to fully marry. He’s been involved with hip-hop culture all his life, and I suspect that was likely the initial common ground he found when first meeting his wife. A lot of his posts on FB include community activities that he and his students are involved in so there’s lots of pictures of him with the kids. It’s interesting to see the depth of influence of hip-hop (for lack of a better word, hopefully I don’t get crucified by hip-hop aficionados if I’m misusing it). The kids, of all ages, are generally seen making hip-hop hand signals and striking poses in the pictures, with him being the “cool” teacher guy with the wild hip-hop haircuts. He’s building a wonderful life for himself and I’ve monitored his personal growth since he’s moved there with great pride.

I think the points made in both of your posts to this thread are very pertinent and insightful. I wonder if part of the problem where you are with flamenco making inroads is due to a lack of familiarity with Indonesia by flamenco artists, themselves, kind of like the knife cuts both ways. Do you think an artist like Vicente Amigo or Tomatito would garner enough attention to warrant a concert tour? Do you see enough interest for anyone to reach out to such an artist to let them know of the potential for the development of a possibly huge fan base in your country?

I’m thinking about the concert given in my city many years ago by the French artist Gabriel Yacoub that I mentioned earlier in the thread. Very few people attended, while I suspect in France he was accustomed to playing for substantially larger crowds (maybe even stadium level when he was with Malicorne). He handled it with grace, however. Is hip-hop culture and the like really as popular there as my nephew’s pictures suggest? Even his son, who’s just a toddler, makes hand signals and strikes poses (probably the influence from his mom and dad). I’m not suggesting the road to flamenco in Indonesia is through hip-hop, but my nephew’s posts suggest there is an openness to the music of other cultures there and it’s possibly just lack of familiarity that hinders the growth of true flamenco in your region. In that regard, the flamenco community bears some of the responsibility to get the word out (as you seem to have already suggested in your first post). Not just through the aficionados in your locale, but by the artists themselves. I mean, how active are flamenco artists themselves in promoting the growth of true flamenco throughout the world? (I don’t know the answer to this).
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 6 2022 11:33:03
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13515
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: future of flamenco (in reply to Arash

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arash

the guitar player is something else lmao

https://youtu.be/6O192OAzMH8?t=248


Was trying to make my last post my final opinion on this subject, why did you have to post that where I was forced to click on it not knowing what it would be from a url?

But since you tricked me into clicking, I must say that gets to the heart of the situation. The “artists” there arrogantly believe their version of flamenco (and I said this before when it was not even so obvious) is like a “Picasso” type artwork of their own design, and therefore, completely justified. Regardless of your taste and opinions about Picasso’s work, I think we can objectively say there are good arguments for why Picasso is considered an important and serious artist in the pantheon of art history. Add to this the ridiculously sad uninformed comments, and you have a nice recipe for why many of us are affected by the situation in a negative way. But I digress. Back to learning some Chick Corea stuff.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 6 2022 14:03:43
 
RobF

Posts: 1318
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: future of flamenco (in reply to Ricardo

I remember driving for two and a half hours to see Chick Corea perform with Return to Forever on St. Helen’s Island back in the early 70s. I had been hoping to see Bill Connors perform in his band, but he had been recently replaced by Al Di Meola. Sharing the bill was Gary Burton with Larry Coryell, and I think Pat Matheny was also there. It was an outdoor concert and a magical evening. I still remember it with fondness. I was a big fan of Return to Forever back in the day.

On another note, a friend of mine sent me concert video snippets and backstage photos of Chick taken when he played in Almería shortly before his death. I found it remarkable how young he looked, really the man didn’t seem to have outwardly aged much over the years. My friend was very honoured to meet Mr. Corea.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 6 2022 14:59:25
 
Arash

Posts: 4481
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: future of flamenco (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arash

the guitar player is something else lmao

https://youtu.be/6O192OAzMH8?t=248


Was trying to make my last post my final opinion on this subject, why did you have to post that where I was forced to click on it not knowing what it would be from a url?

But since you tricked me into clicking, I must say that gets to the heart of the situation. The “artists” there arrogantly believe their version of flamenco (and I said this before when it was not even so obvious) is like a “Picasso” type artwork of their own design, and therefore, completely justified. Regardless of your taste and opinions about Picasso’s work, I think we can objectively say there are good arguments for why Picasso is considered an important and serious artist in the pantheon of art history. Add to this the ridiculously sad uninformed comments, and you have a nice recipe for why many of us are affected by the situation in a negative way. But I digress. Back to learning some Chick Corea stuff.


ha, sorry I had to
On a serious note, bastardización del flamenco is sad at these fame levels.

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 7 2022 0:27:45
 
qzack

 

Posts: 39
Joined: Aug. 17 2011
 

RE: future of flamenco (in reply to RobF

Thank you for your kind replies too Rob

How nice to find your nephew live in Semarang!

quote:

I wonder if part of the problem where you are with flamenco making inroads is due to a lack of familiarity with Indonesia by flamenco artists, themselves, kind of like the knife cuts both ways.


I believe so, although I don't think this is directly related to the topic. It's just that by mirroring of what happened here, if something similar happen in other part of the world out there then I believe we might going to find the real flamenco in a stagnant progress.

Hip hop may seemingly unrelated but to my surprise there are progressive rock fans that listens to Polyphia (whom they got influenced from Hip Hop artists as well) find Dani de Moron pieces from Creer para ver interesting here locally. So I guess, it's quite complicated to explain but as long as there an intersection then there's still a room to play around there to promote the genre making use of the momentum

quote:

Do you think an artist like Vicente Amigo or Tomatito would garner enough attention to warrant a concert tour? Do you see enough interest for anyone to reach out to such an artist to let them know of the potential for the development of a possibly huge fan base in your country?


I'm afraid it's too early to reach out to both of them despite their fantastic playing and somewhat closer to how Pop and Jazz sounds. Once, I accidentally hear Tres notas para decir te quiero and Entre Dos Aguas played in a Mall somewhere and some amateur guitarists in instagram trying to cover the song. So I guess both of them and alike weren't sound too foreign for local ears. Also, I can't remember how many turned up into Gerardo's workshop previously but surely it wasn't enough for us to find some serious players entering our scene years later somehow. That alone is a big homework for the local community. It's quite a long road for us and it's too tough for Andalucian players to play here to be honest as working permit is too expensive for their operating cost to begin with. Maybe, If some good players decided to retire in Bali... it might going to kickstart something LOL

quote:

In that regard, the flamenco community bears some of the responsibility to get the word out (as you seem to have already suggested in your first post). Not just through the aficionados in your locale, but by the artists themselves. I mean, how active are flamenco artists themselves in promoting the growth of true flamenco throughout the world? (I don’t know the answer to this).


I guess it needs both ways to work to see the untapped market as significant to existing flamenco players. Local aficionados somehow needs to garner their attention and vice versa and corresponding each other. In a "cheap" example, many people has to criticize what my local players are currently meddling with. It will not be met nicely but sure there will be some attention LOL so then some of the audiences realize that there are under-looked gigantic names like Antonio Rey or Vicente let's say

In extreme and utopian demand, the genre might need some financial support in an industrial scale to work. Take a look at K-Pop, the pop genre itself is an effortless driving factor indeed but they are quite successful in promoting it by hanging side by side with other entertainment content. K-Pop might not became as big without K-Drama, its variety show etc. It's a kinder joy, people might buy the chocolate with toys inside. We might be closer to a vast growth if this happens although it's kind of a wishful thinking really LOL

The points are

1. Somehow there's no sustainable and consistent promotion to garner people's attention whether from newer ones or seasoned aficionados. I actually thank soleraflamenca for posting guitar demos with existing and newer artists so then I know there are some newer ones out there worth listening to and adding them up in my playlist. But then, that's only it. Other than that... it's just the rip off version like Rosalia, Rosario etc which somehow these artists doesn't collaborate much to make use of merging both existing audiences.

2. I understand that I think the genre itself is pretty much relies on organic growth without significant subsidies from anyone at the moment. There are few exceptions (which I don't quite understand how) where flamenco developed quite a lot organically for example in (relatively) Latin America, Japan, Iran and the Middle East. Most analysis told us that this is due to cultural similarities in between the music traditions as well.

3. If we rely on what we have in the community and organically then we just need to have a constant interaction (whether positive or negative) between real flamencos and "the other". If there's little to no interaction, I guess the audience won't grow. Hence, the music itself in my humblest opinion as we might think what we're doing is just enough. If Paco de Lucia or Camaron didn't dare to do weird things by collaborating with Pop and Jazz artists, I wonder how much longer can we get to this point without them. Ben Woods is also a great example! (Rest in peace Ben, thank you so much) lots of metal fans here locally know flamenco through him
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 7 2022 6:25:32
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1189
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: future of flamenco (in reply to qzack

quote:

Take a look at K-Pop, the pop genre itself is an effortless driving factor indeed but they are quite successful in promoting it by hanging side by side with other entertainment content.

K-pop is where the big money is nowadays. Sadly the future of flamenco looks not bright. I compared the popularity of these 2 music genres in another thread.

quote:

A good point. In the internet age one can easily demonstrate it based on real data on google trend. I think k-pop is a global music style. Wikipedia says it's influenced by styles and genres from around the world. The popularity of k-pop has increased in the last decade. On the other hand flamenco has a clear downward trend. The same goes for jazz and blues.









Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

_____________________________

Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 10 2022 23:02:33
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13515
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: future of flamenco (in reply to RobF

quote:

backstage photos of Chick taken when he played in Almería shortly before his death. I found it remarkable how young he looked, really the man didn’t seem to have outwardly aged much over the years.


Yep that’s right. He and Tom Cruise, OT8’s.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 11 2022 12:28:58
 
Piwin

Posts: 3451
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: future of flamenco (in reply to Ricardo



_____________________________

"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 14 2022 10:11:50
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13515
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: future of flamenco (in reply to Piwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin




Got to see her do a “normal traditional” cante performance in July. She had a lot of stylistic things from Perrate de Utrera IMO.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 14 2022 13:02:02
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1189
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: future of flamenco (in reply to Piwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin



Girl, cover your breast properly. One can see your nipple.
Sexy dessous and flamenco. Nice. If this is the future of flamenco, count me in.

_____________________________

Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 15 2022 19:16:41
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13515
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: future of flamenco (in reply to devilhand

quote:

Girl, cover your breast properly.


The guitarist is male actually.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 16 2022 14:13:26
 
mrstwinkle

 

Posts: 529
Joined: May 14 2017
 

RE: future of flamenco (in reply to qzack

Works for me. Synth bass is good with guitar.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 16 2022 14:21:56
 
Piwin

Posts: 3451
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: future of flamenco (in reply to mrstwinkle

Works for me too.

Probably my favorite of flamencos doing something else is Morente's Omega. Not sure how they marketed it at the time. Maybe less as fusion and more as a tribute album to Cohen. Dunno.



_____________________________

"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 16 2022 15:56:25
 
Brendan

Posts: 280
Joined: Oct. 30 2010
 

RE: future of flamenco (in reply to Piwin

This thread raises a lot of subtle questions about art, freedom, tradition, respect, and other significant abstract nouns. I’ve tried to think it through but I can’t get past the fact that a long-time collaborator with Moraito is also the perpetrator of ‘Mammy Blue’, and in spite of that crime still at large and hiding in plain sight on the panel of a talent show.

_____________________________

https://sites.google.com/site/obscureflamencology/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 17 2022 12:56:53
Page:   <<   <   1 2 3 [4] 5    >   >>
All Forums >>Discussions >>General >> Page: <<   <   1 2 3 [4] 5    >   >>
Jump to:

New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET

0.1015625 secs.