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RE: future of flamenco
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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 RE: future of flamenco (in reply to Neil)
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quote:
Before the pandemic back in 2018/19, I was working with some uni students in Granada and they were all raving about Rosalia etc.
Rosalia not only captivates students and others who don't know better with her popster image. The Washington Post's music critic, Chris Richards, was breathlessly captivated by her during her recent performance in Washington, DC.
Chris Richards, in my opinion, is just this side of being a fool. His gush-piece over Rosalia was downright embarrassing. A couple of quotes from Richards demonstrate his lack of taste in music, as well as his need for a remedial course in English expression, to wit:
“In Rosalia’s music, futurism doesn’t feel like anticipation or prophesy so much as a test of our temporal condition’s tensile strength, a means of living out the fullness of our imaginations.”
And if that were not enough, there’s this:
“Her set opened with ‘Saoko,” a song whose sputtery jazz intro quickly gave way to a pendulous baseline that sounded like a spaceship parallel parking on the roof.”
And of course there was his inevitable reference to, as he termed it, her “neo-flamenco.”
What utter drivel. Rosalia's excuse is she appeals to a group of primarily teenage philistines. Richards's excuse is he is an adult posing as the world's oldest teenager.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Sep. 29 2022 15:35:05
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mark indigo
Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
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RE: future of flamenco (in reply to BarkellWH)
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quote:
Rosalia not only captivates students and others who don't know better with her popster image. The Washington Post's music critic, Chris Richards, was breathlessly captivated by her during her recent performance in Washington, DC.
Chris Richards, in my opinion, is just this side of being a fool. His gush-piece over Rosalia was downright embarrassing. A couple of quotes from Richards demonstrate his lack of taste in music, as well as his need for a remedial course in English expression, to wit:
“In Rosalia’s music, futurism doesn’t feel like anticipation or prophesy so much as a test of our temporal condition’s tensile strength, a means of living out the fullness of our imaginations.”
And if that were not enough, there’s this:
“Her set opened with ‘Saoko,” a song whose sputtery jazz intro quickly gave way to a pendulous baseline that sounded like a spaceship parallel parking on the roof.”
And of course there was his inevitable reference to, as he termed it, her “neo-flamenco.”
What utter drivel. Rosalia's excuse is she appeals to a group of primarily teenage philistines. Richards's excuse is he is an adult posing as the world's oldest teenager.
Have you sent your review of his review to the Washington Post? You should! I assume they have a letters-to-the-editor page?
I was trapped in a car for over an hour with a Spanish lady (not a teenager) who gave me a lecture on Rosalia that seemed to be repeated verbatim from her record company's PR department (or perhaps some newspaper's idiot music critic), all about how she had "turned flamenco upside down", revolutionised it, reinvented it etc. etc., blah, blah, blah....
I was very diplomatic, at one point I said "Rosalia? is she the one that uses auto-tune?"
She said "what's auto-tune?"
I said, "something pop stars use to make their voice sound in tune." 
_____________________________
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Date Sep. 30 2022 19:20:47
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: future of flamenco (in reply to mark indigo)
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Gentlemen,
Appreciate the comments regarding my screed against Rosalia and the Washington Post music critic Chris Richardson. There are voices, a few on the Foro, who claim that such performers are "vital" to keeping flamenco alive. I don't believe it, but if that were the case, perhaps it would be better off dead.
I still think that flamenco will exist in the form that we know it for a small niche of aficionados, long after it has disappeared as a recognized genre to a rapidly diminishing public. If it exists at all though, it will be no thanks to ignorant music critics.
@silddx: Thanks for the Zappa quote. Very appropriate.
@Stu: There may have been a bit of anger, but more than anything I felt disgust.
@Mark Indigo: Being trapped with that woman extolling the "virtues" of Rosalia must have been like being trapped in purgatory.
@Piwin: No Darth Vader, just disgust, as noted above to Stu.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Oct. 1 2022 16:07:39
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RobF
Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
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RE: future of flamenco (in reply to Escribano)
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quote:
When I lived in Spain, I cam to think of it as such a community thing. Small groups, in bars late at night. If they die, flamenco goes with them.
That’s kind of how I see it, too. The thing is, there are super talented flamenco artists in Spain who don’t seem to get the foothold that one would expect from a person of their ability. But then, when they do have the opportunity to record a commercially oriented release, they succumb to the antiquated values of whomever is producing their work and release rehashed pablum. The problem is very few seem to have more than a couple of releases in them if they stick with Puro, and people need to earn a living. It’s not lost on them that a hit or two goes a long way towards keeping the flame burning. But producing one seems to be more easily said than done.
If I were Javier Condé or Juan Habichuela Nieto, or the like, I would go to Rosalía with cap in hand and beg her to produce my next release. Ask for a couple of hits, and for the rest to be well produced, yet innovative puro flamenco that doesn’t draw upon the Madrid and Jerez formulaic stuff that is so often done. Maybe with new production sensibilities the next Tauromagia can be produced. Who knows? Sometimes I think flamenco is it’s own worst enemy.
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Date Oct. 1 2022 20:08:15
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: future of flamenco (in reply to RobF)
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quote:
....her body of work? Does it not have the right to exist on its own merit? My take is Rosalía has every right to do as she pleases with her arte and if flamenco can’t handle it, then f*ck flamenco. It’s not her problem.
Rosalia's work indeed has a right to exist on its own merit. And she has every right to do as she pleases with her arte. All with one major caveat, in my opinion. I don't know if she has ever claimed to be in the vanguard of a form of "neo-flamenco" (as the Post music critic termed it), or if the term is thrust upon her by music critics, a Foro member who up-thread claimed she and others are "vital" to keeping flamenco alive, or the woman who trapped Mark Indigo for an hour extolling her virtues in up-ending traditional flamenco.
The caveat is: If she claims to be a member of such a vanguard, or if she allows all of the examples of references to her being in a neo-flamenco vanguard, at least in part, to define her, then she considers that to be part of her body of work. To the extent that that is the case, she and her body of work are fair game for criticism. She cannot produce a fraudulent form that some (including perhaps she herself) mistakenly call flamenco and then claim immunity from criticism.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Oct. 1 2022 21:17:09
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: future of flamenco (in reply to RobF)
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quote:
Bill, I don’t know how one could listen to her latest album and call it fraudulent. It’s got nothing to do with flamenco (except for one piece). That journalist who called it neo-flamenco is an idiot. She doesn’t call it flamenco or she’d be an idiot, too. But she’s not. No way. She also has no obligation to walk around in sack-cloth and apologize to the world for every nitwit that mislabels her arte. It’s not her problem, she has nothing to apologize for, she has a right to create and the rest of the world can do what they want with it.
Rob--I didn't call her latest album, or any of her albums, fraudulent. I stated clearly in my post, just above Konstantin's, that I don't know if she has ever claimed to be in the vanguard of a form of "neo-flamenco." What I said was if she has made such a claim, or if she encourages (or at least does not discourage) those who are making such a claim on her behalf (such as her PR team), then to the extent that that is the case, she and her work are fair game for criticism. I used the term "fraudulent" to describe those productions of hers that may be passed off as flamenco by her, her PR team, or others such as ignorant music critics.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Oct. 1 2022 23:15:25
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RobF
Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
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RE: future of flamenco (in reply to BarkellWH)
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I don’t know if she’s ever tried to pass off anything she’s done as flamenco as much as having leveraged flamenco quite a bit in her first album. I think a large amount of the criticism back then was directed towards her “appropriating” Andalusian culture and dress in some of her videos, when she’s from Barcelona. But when I go to Spain a lot of the younger female flamenco artists in Andalusia walk around in their off time wearing thick-soled high top sneakers, lululemon style pants, go clubbing, and participate in modern life just like everyone else of their generation, and no one seems to tell them they’re abandoning their culture. So, there’s a bit of hypocrisy in it.
At any rate, I’m not much of a follower of Rosalía or her music, so I don’t know much about what she says or how her PR machine operates. I do have a lot of respect for her accomplishments, however, and I don’t think she’s a lightweight. I guess I’m just a little tired of the way the modern world has misappropriated the concepts of inclusion, tolerance, and all these other lofty ideals only to become such an exclusionary and reactionary place. Mainly because people keep shoving their (generally limited) worldviews down each other’s throats. Walking around my neighbourhood, which is relatively upscale, sometimes I think I’m from another planet, definitely a different age. I guess I’ve become a bit of a curmudgeon, haha.
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Date Oct. 1 2022 23:40:52
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: future of flamenco (in reply to RobF)
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quote:
Walking around my neighbourhood, which is relatively upscale, sometimes I think I’m from another planet, definitely a different age. I guess I’ve become a bit of a curmudgeon, haha.
Rosalia aside, you might appreciate my curmudgeonly world-view. I have always considered myself a nineteenth century man, or to put it in a modern context, an analog man living in a digital age. I have an aging desk-top computer, but I do not own an I-phone or a cell phone of any type, nor a tablet, nor a Nook or any other digital reader. I have a fairly extensive library of actual books. I wear a mechanical, analog watch and have a print newspaper delivered to my home every morning, where I read it while savoring a cup of coffee.
My ideal life would have been to be the fourth son of 19th century British landed gentry, since the first son inherited the estate, the second son entered the clergy, and the third son was bought an officer's commission in the army. Since there was no place for the fourth son, he was encouraged to go abroad and periodically was sent a sum of money to live at a level appropriate to his station in life, as long as he did not commit acts that would bring discredit and embarrassment to the family. Or if he did, to keep them hidden.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Oct. 2 2022 0:30:03
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