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Bulerias - 6 vs 12 beat metronome   You are logged in as Guest
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TrickyFish

 

Posts: 46
Joined: Dec. 7 2018
 

Bulerias - 6 vs 12 beat metronome 

Per my other thread, i’ve decided to learn bulerias as my next palo.

Can someone explain the difference between the following 2 metronome beats?

Aside from the obvious. That is, when is each used and why?

https://youtu.be/QZ55bbl-MKM

https://youtu.be/BlmgFptgKXQ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 11 2022 0:58:28
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13331
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Bulerias - 6 vs 12 beat metronome (in reply to TrickyFish

The first, when the music is “cuadrao” or “square” or related directly to Solea phrasing. The second is more fundamental and can be used also for those previous specific cases, and everything else.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 11 2022 15:59:51
 
mrstwinkle

 

Posts: 497
Joined: May 14 2017
 

RE: Bulerias - 6 vs 12 beat metronome (in reply to TrickyFish

The first is far more common. IMO.

Personally I'd pick a less 'noisy' background track to learn - but nothing essentially wrong with either of them. A free flamenco metronome is at https://acompas.org/#/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 11 2022 19:55:42
 
mrstwinkle

 

Posts: 497
Joined: May 14 2017
 

RE: Bulerias - 6 vs 12 beat metronome (in reply to TrickyFish

To clarify. In 6 is a weird variant. A true buleria is in 12. Cue people proving me wrong by the outlier exceptions.

This is THE definitive buleria. Or arguably Almoraima. However, both in 12. Meh.

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 11 2022 20:21:05
 
Piwin

Posts: 3394
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Bulerias - 6 vs 12 beat metronome (in reply to mrstwinkle

quote:

Cue people proving me wrong by the outlier exceptions.


Sure. Here you go:



_____________________________

"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 11 2022 20:42:35
 
Morante

 

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RE: Bulerias - 6 vs 12 beat metronome (in reply to mrstwinkle

quote:

A true buleria is in 12
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 12 2022 11:24:03
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13331
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Bulerias - 6 vs 12 beat metronome (in reply to mrstwinkle

quote:

ORIGINAL:

To clarify. In 6 is a weird variant. A true buleria is in 12. Cue people proving me wrong by the outlier exceptions.

This is THE definitive buleria. Or arguably Almoraima. However, both in 12. Meh.




As I said earlier 12 is cuadrao and solea phrases, nothing else in buleria. While you might expect “cuadrao” to be the norm, it actually isn’t all the time and the more you look for exceptions to the rule the more you are surprised. People are “laughing” at you here because you point to examples that are exceptions themselves.

Almoraima contains falsetas and phrases that are all “cuadrao” so it makes sense you believe it to be a good 12 count example. However, if you start the track and count it is off right away, you have to–in hindsight– “pretend” that he started compas dry strumming on count 6 for it to work. This would be considered “incorrect” for all practical purposes. You are fudging the math so it is cuadrao later on. The TRUTH is that the piece contains many phrases of 6s which should be felt as such. There are interesting phrases in 12, where he does a unique thing (lets say it was novel for its time) where he does phrases starting on 10 that end on 6, throughout the piece. He is toying with the typical solea phrasing that goes from 1-10 typically (by omitting a note from the typical phrases since 10-6 is 9 counts). So OTHER THAN THOSE and the typical compas chord progression phrases, everything should be felt as groups of 6. The fact they work out in groups of twos is arbitrary.

Next Piwin sent the Moraito example back to you. Maybe here, again, you miss the joke as there are several cuadrao phrases. But let me point you the spots that don’t work in 12 if you count religiously.

1:36-2:00 min. You can decide where it got off in there, OR, simply use the 6’s concept and it works nice and neat.

3:20-4:06. Same deal.

6:22-6:50. Again you can try to find the “spot” that is an extra 6 but it can be a point of argument.

7:00-7:50. Here is a falseta that has 3 odd 6’s against my 12 clock. IN hindsight you can pretend (like Almoraima) that there was only ONE, since the other two can mathematically couple together (the arpeggio falseta repeats the 1.5 compas phrase), but in terms of the correct “feeling” the idea is it is ALL 6’s. And when you look closer back at the “cuadrao” falsetas in this performance, you will notice how most are phrased in 6’s anyway, it is just that they are grouped in 2’s to make things seem “cuadrao”.

I guess we don’t need any other “outlier exceptions” at this point.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 12 2022 14:04:40
 
TrickyFish

 

Posts: 46
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RE: Bulerias - 6 vs 12 beat metronome (in reply to TrickyFish

… and i thought this would be a simple question.

Most of the material i am working from seems to be in 12 and like a fast soleares. So, as a beginner, i think i will use the 12 beat variation. Am i on the right track here?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 13 2022 3:10:38
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13331
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Bulerias - 6 vs 12 beat metronome (in reply to TrickyFish

quote:

ORIGINAL: TrickyFish

… and i thought this would be a simple question.

Most of the material i am working from seems to be in 12 and like a fast soleares. So, as a beginner, i think i will use the 12 beat variation. Am i on the right track here?


I will repeat, the 6’s pattern is MORE FUNDAMENTAL. What it means is that after you get used to 12 count phrases (which are often asymmetrical especially if they start on 1 and end on 10 like solea), the odd 6’s will feel really strange and unnatural and you won’t easily adapt to more advanced falsetas that although count out to 12, are based on simple 6’s phrases. For most people accompanying the cante is the ultimate top level activity with flamenco guitar, and when singers are advanced the players locked into 12 phrases often get stuck. In the cante accomp. Thread I give examples of how to accompany using 6’s verses 12 phrases and anyone that tries it will realize how liberating it feels.

With that in mind I always teach beginners the basics as two sets of symmetrical 6’s and build the foundation from there, no 12 counting stuff. I find the 12 counting is an easy map to learn for dance when the time comes to bridge between solea and buleria, but for straight buleria it can become a straight jacket.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 13 2022 13:21:40
 
Piwin

Posts: 3394
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Bulerias - 6 vs 12 beat metronome (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

after you get used to 12 count phrases (which are often asymmetrical especially if they start on 1 and end on 10 like solea), the odd 6’s will feel really strange and unnatural and you won’t easily adapt to more advanced falsetas that although count out to 12, are based on simple 6’s phrases.


quote:

the players locked into 12 phrases often get stuck.


FWIW Tricky, what Ricardo is describing is exactly the situation I was in, and to an extent still am. Like any bad habit that has been reinforced over time, it takes time and effort to correct. So if you can approach it as 6s from the beginning, you'll spare yourself the trouble I've been having to go through. I'd use the buleria 6 metronome if I had to pick between the two. That or just a regular metronome marking each beat.

_____________________________

"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 13 2022 15:14:54
 
mrstwinkle

 

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Joined: May 14 2017
 

RE: Bulerias - 6 vs 12 beat metronome (in reply to TrickyFish

https://youtu.be/_YNIiVaCDLs
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 14 2022 8:42:52
 
orsonw

Posts: 1521
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Bulerias - 6 vs 12 beat metronome (in reply to mrstwinkle

quote:

https://youtu.be/_YNIiVaCDLs


Yes another example of six.
Notice how he is 'out' of compas with the twelve beat metronome at the end, around 1.15 he plays on beat 6 as if it were 12 and closes on beat 4 of the next compas as if it were 10. This is because he is playing in 6 and has played a medio compas prior.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 14 2022 11:33:45
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13331
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Bulerias - 6 vs 12 beat metronome (in reply to orsonw

quote:

ORIGINAL: orsonw

quote:

https://youtu.be/_YNIiVaCDLs



Yes another example of six. Notice how he is 'out' of compas with the twelve beat metronome at the end, around 1.15 he plays on beat 6 as if it were 12. This is because he is playing in 6 and has played a medio compas prior.


At 0:59 he could have done a remate 7-10 for symmetry but starts on 6 there. I like how he just cuts the video and never resolves the issue at all, just playing crossed for eternity

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 14 2022 11:56:18
 
orsonw

Posts: 1521
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Bulerias - 6 vs 12 beat metronome (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

At 0:59 he could have done a remate 7-10 for symmetry but starts on 6 there. I like how he just cuts the video and never resolves the issue at all


In Jerez he could have continued and no one would care because they would be feeling sixes like in Moraito's video. But people on the internet would say he can't play and he's out of compas.

One can play guitar alone to a 12 beat metronome but if playing with other people, a singer or dancer, it will get confusing because they will easily and naturally throw in a medio compas here and there.

(PS I'm not writing this reply directed at you Ricardo )
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 14 2022 12:01:45
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13331
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Bulerias - 6 vs 12 beat metronome (in reply to orsonw

quote:

ORIGINAL: orsonw

quote:

At 0:59 he could have done a remate 7-10 for symmetry but starts on 6 there. I like how he just cuts the video and never resolves the issue at all


In Jerez he could have continued and no one would care because they would be feeling sixes like in Moraito's video. But people on the internet would say he can't play and he's out of compas.

One can play guitar alone to a 12 beat metronome but if playing with other people, a singer or dancer, it will get confusing because they will easily and naturally throw in a medio compas here and there.

(PS I'm not writing this reply directed at you Ricardo )


Of course…but the point is now there are confused people thanks to the dumb clock. Unless the point is that the clock is “wrong” as a tool. He could have simply used software to reset the clock since all the stuff from 0:59 is cuadrao.

And finally…Jerez has nothing to do with the issue. Montoya recorded half-compas. Niño Ricardo Melchor de Marchena etc. And for that matter I see it presented in the Ocon score of 1860s

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 14 2022 12:05:54
 
JasonM

Posts: 1804
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Bulerias - 6 vs 12 beat metronome (in reply to mrstwinkle

Lol great example video! “Shoot, let’s just cut the vid right at the end there, beginners will never know!”
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 14 2022 14:21:41
 
Morante

 

Posts: 1904
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Bulerias - 6 vs 12 beat metronome (in reply to orsonw

quote:

In Jerez he could have continued and no one would care because they would be feeling sixes like in Moraito's video.


Not so. He would not have caught any of the remates and would have been considered just another guiri sin compás.

I was once invited to a cumpleaños in a Peña de Jerez and was assured there would be another guitarrista. Mentira. All the gitanos wanted to sing bulerías, which is not my preferred palo. I accompanied 5 gitanos for ages. When they tired, one of them said "qué buen compás tiene, chiqillo". I replied "I have no compás, I just listened to the palmeros and when they made a remate, so did I." He said "Muy bien, así aprenden los niños". Flamencos do not count, they feel.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 14 2022 16:24:00
 
orsonw

Posts: 1521
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Bulerias - 6 vs 12 beat metronome (in reply to TrickyFish

Hi Trickyfish
Here's a video posted this week with Manuel Cantarote explaining the 12 vs 6 beat, and the 'open' aspect of 6's.

Maybe worth putting the guitar down and trying the palmas to get an embodied sense of rhythm. What he calls 'natural' beat felt inside with your trunk, body and breath.



Manuel Cantarote usually has bigger hair and is often seen doing palmas for Jerez artists e.g.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 30 2022 9:50:20
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