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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 9 2022 11:08:30
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13336
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (in reply to Guest

Lower the bone saddle. That is what it is designed for. Many new guitars go out with a high set up because it makes the guitar appear louder.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 9 2022 12:21:11
 
AndresK

Posts: 153
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RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (in reply to Guest

Hello. Ricardo of course is very right.

Before lowering the bone saddle I would advise to contact the seller and tell him/her about your problem. At some cases, for e.g. Alhambra, they give you two bone saddles to switch if you want lower action. So ask the seller if he has a lower bone to send you or make you a new lower one. It relatively cheap and you do not take the chance of altering an original, very new instrument. This might take some of its value off as it has only been one week since you bought it.

Since you got it online, there is also a money back policy across EU for online purchases that are in original/new condition. So please start there and if you do not get any feedback in a logical amount of time you can then of course lower the bone saddle.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 9 2022 16:46:39
 
JasonM

Posts: 1806
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (in reply to Guest

Let us know how much saddle u have sticking up out of the bridge slot
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 9 2022 17:26:19
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 9 2022 18:18:19
 
kitarist

Posts: 1454
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RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (in reply to Guest

quote:

Do you have any experience trying Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra guitar? I bought it a week ago, and the pulsasion is extremely hard as the distance between the frat and the strings are pretty long, like 3-4 mm.
Even more disturbing the for the right hand, because its almost impossible to strum.


Didn't you ask for advice on this same guitar and conditions of sale like two weeks ago, here? As I recall you could not play/examine it before buying and could not even see it as it was packed already?

I don't know about his "bridge is already too low" business. Maybe post a close-up picture of the bridge and saddle here, taken from the side?

Also you seem to have objectively weak right (and probably left) hand at the moment - but the good news is that this can be fixed.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 9 2022 19:28:39
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 9 2022 21:03:48
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 9 2022 21:08:36
 
RobF

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RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (in reply to Guest

Hi Andrew,
Pictures of the bridge showing the saddle clearance could give a good idea of how much adjustability you have if you do need to lower the action. The string height at the bridge is also a good measurement to make with respect to playability for flamenco. The ruler you have in your picture can’t be used for this measure, however, as it’s a drafting ruler with an offset zero. A machinist’s ruler with no offset is needed for all these guitar spec measurements.

I suspect things may not be as bad as you fear, but yeah, pics of the bridge with the camera aiming along the top from the front so the bridge and saddle heights can be seen would be helpful. Also, when measuring the action at the twelfth fret using the drafting ruler, if you adjust the camera so it sights across the strings (aligned to the bottom of the strings), then an estimate of the action can be made by deducting a 1mm fret height from the measurement of the distance between the fingerboard and the bottom of the string. The parallax in the picture you posted makes it hard to get an accurate reading, even reading by eye the parallax should be corrected for by reading the ruler with your eye at string level (again, aligned to the bottom of the strings).

At any rate, it doesn’t hurt to learn these basics, and the knowledge can help you make a more informed purchase next time and hopefully avoid this kind of disappointment. But still, it might turn out to not be so bad. Maybe this is just an adjustment period tainted by a touch of buyer’s remorse. You might even end up liking the guitar after you’ve had some more time to get acquainted with it.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 10 2022 3:21:08
 
AndresK

Posts: 153
Joined: Jan. 4 2019
 

RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (in reply to Guest

Good morning Andrew. RobF is right. We need to see a picture of the bridge. And something else about the measurement that the rest of the most experienced people can answer better, don't you have to measure the distance from the 12 fret and not the fretboard? In the pictures it seems that you count from the fretboard thus adding more distance. If Luthier 20 is hard, that for some guitars and players might be, you can try softer strings like D'Addario EJ45 or Knobloch low tension or La Bella 427 or Solera flamenca Alma or many more.. Is your new guitar the same string length as the previous one? For e.g. are they both 65cm or 655mm or 66cm? If this one has longer scale then even with the same strings as the old one will be harder and this is not a problem.

Also check the Sanchis Lopez site, as they say: Política de garantía
Garantía en todas nuestras guitarras de 10 años de construcción y 5 años en posibles ajustes. https://hermanossanchislopez.com/antonio-rey/6-antonio-rey.html

Talk to them too,as they are the one you found your info for the guitar and built it so I think they can also help out with this situation because a happy customer is better that a disappointed one.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 10 2022 5:20:49
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 10 2022 8:06:39
 
devilhand

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 10 2022 10:53:34
 
RobF

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RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (in reply to Guest

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew83
I talked to Antonio, he and Sanchiz are not willing to give my money back, but Sanchiz is currently working on couple of same models like this negra, Antonio offered to replace the old one to that new. I only hope that the measurments will be more satisfiying.


The pictures you’ve taken aren’t very useful for online analysis, I think in your case it’s best to physically show the guitar to a knowledgeable person and take their advice.

Based on what you’ve said and shown, it’s hard to have a good feeling about this, so I think take the replacement, hope for the best, and sell it once you get it. Then go buy a guitar from a reputable dealer with an honest return policy and a written bill of sale. Also make sure any communications you have with these guys moving forward are in writing. I’m surprised at the way you’ve been treated in this deal, but you didn’t do much to protect yourself so hopefully you will do better with the replacement, maybe they will try to select one that’s more suitable to your needs.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 10 2022 11:34:10
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13336
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (in reply to Guest

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew83

I cannot be lowered as the bridge is already very very low. I showed it to a master, he told this to me.
I bought it from Antonio himself, so did not get any bill of any proofe.
I texted him that I would like to send it back and get my money back,but he refused me :(


Yes, I can see now, it is all a bad story. Antonio should know better cuz he is an inspiration as a player. The set up is not unusual, the stiff pulsation etc is a result of the neck angle set up was too far forward (we have talked about this in the past where I point out the Goldilocks zone is 3mm 12fret and 7mm bridge, and trying to hit that and the guitar shifts half a millimeter when they glue the back on, and it is a mess.). While there is a way to fix this problem, it is a bit involved, and no it is not fair they don’t offer you a refund. I am sure many pros could play it just fine with that set up, but it would not be fun. The Conde I recorded my album with was dangerously close to this setup, but I played pretty aggressively back then so it was perfect for me. Now a days I prefer a lower set up. Antonio plays very hard and I can imagine he likes this (or something close to it). If you end up stuck with it here are the options to fix it:

1. Remove the saddle and file down the bridge where the saddle slot is, such that you get a millimeter or two more exposure of the current bone saddle. From there you can either get a new bone saddle to file (measured against the old one) or file down the existing one (from the bottom up) as low as possible such that you have a string break angle of X>0. To check before doing all that remove the bone saddle and bring the strings up to pitch. This will have intonation off but you can see if you are improving the action over the fingerboard. If that feels perfect it means your break angle will be zero. If you get a break angle of 0 then you have to do the following:

2. Fill the string tie holes and have them re-drilled at a lower angle. (From behind the bridge angled down toward the headstock). This means when you tie the strings they have enough break angle against the bone saddle to have good intonation and no buzz. I have fixed one nice guitar for a student with great results doing this. The luthier only charged like $100 and it saved a $5000 guitar. The other option is to fill the string holes then drill a 12-hole tie block style. That means a different method of tying the strings will result in a steeper break angle. Many modern luthiers are doing this deliberately for all their guitars, however I personally only see it as a necessary evil for situations such as yours.

Wish you the best of luck amigo!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 10 2022 12:57:32
 
JasonM

Posts: 1806
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (in reply to Guest

Ugh this is frustrating to hear. I don’t trust that Toni Rey. I get that he’s trying to sell the guitar… based on his reputation alone that is. Also, I wonder if this model used Tom’s Reyes plan (for the bracing) instead of the regular Sanchis

Ricardo, what is the new string height off the deck on that Conde now? 5mm?
What do you guys think about adding taller frets in a case like this? Assuming he kept it?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 10 2022 16:39:26
 
RobF

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RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (in reply to JasonM

quote:

What do you guys think about adding taller frets in a case like this? Assuming he kept it?


I generally use standard height frets (about 1.1 - 1.2mm high after dressing) but on my last trip to Spain a builder there told me he liked to use low frets for flamenco due to the use of the capo. His flamenco guitars had their frets dressed to about 0.9mm. Notwithstanding that tidbit, taller frets is an option that could be considered.

But, I don’t think someone should have to do any kind of major work like fret replacement or FB planing to salvage the playability of a brand new guitar. To be fair, the pictures do not account for parallax and are virtually useless for online evaluation, seeing how the ruler is sitting probably about 4mm away from the string and the camera is looking down at it. But I’ll take a shot anyways, this being the internet….so…I attempted to duplicate the offset in the picture with a guitar and found it accounted for about 1mm of the measured value of 5mm, once the parallax was removed. From the adjusted measurement of 4mm subtract another millimetre for the fret height and you get an action sitting in the neighbourhood of 3mm, which is acceptable, and could be influencing the refusal to process a return (if Sanchiz is feeling the guitar is within spec). This doesn’t mean the saddle has much clearance and the break angle does seem to beg for a 12 hole conversion, but again the pictures aren’t taken at the correct angles to draw any viable conclusions.

The bottom line is Andrew finds the guitar very difficult to play, the numbers really are secondary to that. He’d probably be happier with a different guitar.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 10 2022 17:03:25
 
tk

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RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (in reply to Guest

I suggest you take it to the luthier and explain to him/her Ricardo's idea and the luthier should be able to do it. It looks like it is the only option. Good Luck

TK

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 10 2022 17:44:37
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 10 2022 22:13:30
 
Mark2

Posts: 1696
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (in reply to Guest

How many hours have you played it? Maybe you'll get used to it. I have an expensive guitar that is harder to play than one that was much less expensive, but I've become used to the better guitar. It sounds way better and some things that are impossible for me to play on the cheaper guitar I can play on the better instrument.

My experience is not unique. When I was considering a Lester Devoe my friend told me his was more difficult to play than his other guitar and he thought my conde(student model) might be easier to play than a Devoe. He was right, but at this point the conde rarely leaves the case.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 10 2022 23:20:59
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 11 2022 6:55:57
 
RobF

Posts: 1197
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (in reply to Guest

Hi Andrew,
If they offered to exchange it for a new one, that would be the prudent move to make. This time do it on the up and up, conduct all business in writing and get a proper bill of sale from HSL.

A couple of things about this deal are sticky…

The webpage for the advert you linked to on the first thread looks like an official HSL page showing an Antonio Rey artist model. But when you inquired about it they suggested that you were talking directly to Antonio Rey and the deal could be done informally through WhatsApp without a bill of sale? This sticks me as a funny way for an established shop to do business. I don’t want to make too many leaps but I have some thoughts about this…

Q1 - are you sure it was Antonio Rey that you were communicating with and not some errant employee? This is important as Antonio Rey’s reputation is at stake and he might be getting blamed for something he had nothing to do with. Have you tried reaching out to him via different methods, such as his Facebook page, to confirm that it was actually him you dealt with?

Q2 - similarly, are you sure the HSL company is aware of what happened here? Could you reach out to them via alternate methods to talk to one of the owners or the sales manager directly? It just seems that as the deal was conducted in an unusual manner they also might not be aware of it.

If neither Antonio Rey or the company were officially aware of the transaction but it was done by someone associated with them, then I suspect they would welcome the opportunity to make things right. I mean, I’d want to know if I had an unethical employee if it were my business and if I were a performing artist endorsing a product I would also want to know that the sale of the product was being conducted in an ethical and professional manner.

If they were involved, then perhaps looking into the applicable consumer protection laws in the EU would be a step. This is basically what AndresK suggested earlier in this thread. You will need all the correspondence, including the WhatsApp messages, but that may provide enough evidence to convince the company to act more ethically. Assuming they had anything to do with it. Even if they didn’t, what Andres suggested makes sense as it might bring some clarity to what seems to be a very muddy situation.


Finally, if it turns out Antonio Rey wasn’t personally involved (in other words, you were lied to), then you have an obligation to work with him to correct any harm that may have been brought to his reputation by what’s happened here. Same with the HSL company, because as it stands neither of these parties are looking very good and it would be a shame if it’s all due to a misrepresentation made by some dishonest employee. That being said, they can’t really wash their hands of the whole affair if the item was taken from their inventory and the initial correspondence was conducted via the email address provided on their webpage. They’ll want to fix this.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 11 2022 14:20:28
 
JasonM

Posts: 1806
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (in reply to Guest

quote:

Guys, is there any chance I can sell this guitar?


You could list the guitar for sale online at Reverb or whatever, while you wait for the “possibility” of trading it in for a replacement. If it sells in the meantime, then your done with it. But I would be honest in the listing. Post measurements of the action and bridge, like what you see Solera Flamenca do for their guitars.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 11 2022 15:41:40
 
xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1789
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From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (in reply to RobF

I've been in frequent contact with Andrew during the whole process. It is indeed Antonio who sold this guitar, there is video proof and they also video phoned while Andrew was inspecting the guitar. It's indeed an issue that Antonio pays a certain amount to HSL to have guitars made that bear his name, then he proceeds to sell them without a bill so he can dodge taxes. I can certainly understand it from an ordinary person's point of view but as a renowned artist it's less than elegant.
The true issue with the guitar is that it's not as comfortable as the Maldonado Andrew is used to. The strings over the 12th fret are around 3mms which is acceptable but on the high side. However his Maldonado is also 3mms there so the issue is more with the way the neck relates to the body; and due to the construction the strings can't be lowered by simple shaving bits off the bones, but the bridge would have to be touched for that.
Since Antonio's offered a replacement (after some much needed convincing) which might suit Andrew's requirements more, there is still a good chance that there is a happy ending in this situation (extra postal cost notwithstanding). I'm very hopeful of that, but if not, I've suggested that they look at manipulating the bridge itself as he thankfully has access to an experienced local luthier. Despite HSL's good reputation and the difficulty in selling high (but not collectors) value guitars these days, I doubt the money paid for the guitar could be easily recovered so I think it's worth the risk.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 11 2022 17:39:43
 
RobF

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RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ

Ouch. Not a good look for Mr. Rey.

At least the action is at 3mm (as I suspected). Maybe some string experimentation would be in order before committing to any physical adjustments, just in case a swap comes available that looks more promising. I personally would want to avoid shaving the bridge, as doing so could bring the strings too close to the top or have unintended consequences tone wise, but the guitar really has to be physically examined to make any determinations on that. If the action is at 3mm perhaps a 12 hole conversion might be a good upgrade to increase the break angle, as it does look shallow, but may not be necessary. I wouldn’t advise to plug and redrill for a six hole configuration unless the luthier is certain there will be enough clearance exiting the holes. If there isn’t he’ll have to undercut and all this is getting messy and possibly expensive. A 12 hole conversion would be cleaner (only need to drill six new holes).

Sorry things went this way, hopefully the situation can be salvaged with some new strings (or a new guitar).
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 11 2022 18:15:46
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 11 2022 20:54:00
 
RobF

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RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (in reply to Guest

quote:

Therefore, the replacement guitar wont be much better.


I don’t think you should draw that conclusion, especially if you can explain to them your needs concerning the replacement. It comes down to balancing the costs of shipping for the exchange against the costs of adjustments to the current guitar and its possible devaluation due to the alterations. That and the concern that you might not like the replacement, but then again, maybe you would.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 11 2022 21:53:31
 
AndresK

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RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (in reply to Guest

Knobloch medium hard is quite hard for some flamenco guitars. Knobloch has thick basses. Low tension Knobloch is all I can stand regarding their basses. Luciano Ghosn had the same opinion too when he was playing Knobloch. Jose Maria Bandera used medium tension QZ Knobloch on some of his guitars and low tension QZ on others, and you can imagine that he did not put low tension on badly made guitars, it is just that some guitars do not need even medium tension to sound robust. I also have a very cheap classical "converted" to flamenco with 12 hole to get the break angle and lowering the bridge, and bones, and even the fretboard, replacing the frets afterwards (all these before I bought a real flamenco guitar). And yes this cheap classical is easier than any other guitar I have played with even hard strings on, as it sounds a bit dead even with medium, but I cannot get clear phrasing on it and not the sound and volume I get with my main guitar even with low tension strings.

RobF is also right. I think they will not make the same mistake twice. They will give you an easier guitar hopefully. Until then try Knobloch low tension, or D'Addario EJ45, which is easier than Luthier 20 or La Bella 2001 low tension or LA Bella 427 or even Solera Alma since you live in Europe and you can get them only for 13,5 euros from cuerdasguitarra.com . You will feel very much of a difference until you get the new guitar.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 12 2022 5:49:18
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 12 2022 6:35:38
 
RobF

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RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (in reply to Guest

I think going forward with getting a replacement is a sound decision. If that’s happening for sure, it might be prudent to just put the guitar aside in its case and stop playing it or experimenting with new strings, etc…as it would be a shame if it got a string ding in the top from a string change or scratches and the like. It’s also the fair thing to do, especially if the problem is one of comfort and not one of the guitar being wildly out of spec, as it is still a sellable item and they have the right to have it returned in the same condition it was in when they sent it. I would not change the strings or even play the guitar now…too risky.

Otherwise, glad it’s working out, I have a feeling the replacement will be a different story.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 12 2022 10:20:03
 
JasonM

Posts: 1806
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (in reply to RobF

And once you have some lighter strings on the guitar and play it for a couple weeks, you might find that you can adapt to it more than you think.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 12 2022 14:28:02
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