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Stu

Posts: 1923
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Practicing- (in reply to Ricardo

😂😂 oh no!! I read that bit about ten times too. To make sure I hadn't had a similar auto correct, fat thumb mishap!
Nothing worse than correcting someone's grammar whilst your own is at fault too!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 17 2021 18:31:02
 
Kaloguitarist

 

Posts: 109
Joined: May 12 2020
 

RE: Practicing- (in reply to Stu

Holy Cow,

Luciano is awesome....Seriously, I have seen his Patreon page and I don't even know what level would be good for me! I know I couldn't handle PDL or Vicente Amigo material, LOL And, to be honest, I don't think I could handle it in this life time...But, I know how tap on electric guitar

Grisha as usually gives awesome advise for practice, however, I am starting to seriously realize some private lessons will help me a lot....

P.S. I am dyslexic so if I misspell or misread y'all know why

Kalo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 17 2021 18:41:26
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12992
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Practicing- (in reply to Kaloguitarist

quote:

So, the question I am now going to ask is....Is the practice slow a MYTH???

Also, does this apply with picado and other techinques or just compas and falsetta...


It’s not a myth. Examining the music slow in order to cross every t and dot every i is important at an early stage of encountering new music or unfamiliar phrases. The problem is once a tempo is assigned to a phrase, so is a “feeling”. So the myth part involves the confusion that slow practice magically leads to fast perfection. The feeling is totally different at vastly different speeds, for all techniques, so you have lower and higher tempo thresholds where once you cross into another range, the feeling changes.

This is also why students don’t immediately see a connection between very slow Soleá and a fast buleria, and are confused about 12 vs 1 in medium tempo forms such as Soleá por bulerias or Alegrias etc. Many bulerias transcriptions represent compas on paper (such as Faucher) as identical phrases to Soleá however, the tempo difference between 60 bpm and 260 bpm completely changes the FEELING of the music.

In that sense, to me, it makes sense to first learn a short phrase very slow to get all the detail. But before adding a new phrase you must first experience the first phrase somewhere in the ball park of the actual tempo. What we see instead is students learn entire Pieces of music at half speed and after lots of practice and mastery down in that range the attempt to increase tempo hits a brick wall far below the lower threshold of the actual tempo. It is the wrong ball park.

The idea of playing for dance classes is there will be transitions during footwork that require guitarists to slip between “ball parks” seamlessly, usually with simple thematic falsetas or compas strumming but the concept of changing gears of feeling as tempo increases is what you learn. Later applying this to tricky solo guitar stuff certainly helps when learning challenging material slow but with a forward looking concept that the fast tempo will change things drastically.

_____________________________

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 17 2021 18:54:26
 
Kaloguitarist

 

Posts: 109
Joined: May 12 2020
 

RE: Practicing- (in reply to Stu

quote:

It’s not a myth. Examining the music slow in order to cross every t and dot every i is important at an early stage of encountering new music or unfamiliar phrases. The problem is once a tempo is assigned to a phrase, so is a “feeling”. So the myth part involves the confusion that slow practice magically leads to fast perfection. The feeling is totally different at vastly different speeds, for all techniques, so you have lower and higher tempo thresholds where once you cross into another range, the feeling changes.

This is also why students don’t immediately see a connection between very slow Soleá and a fast buleria, and are confused about 12 vs 1 in medium tempo forms such as Soleá por bulerias or Alegrias etc. Many bulerias transcriptions represent compas on paper (such as Faucher) as identical phrases to Soleá however, the tempo difference between 60 bpm and 260 bpm completely changes the FEELING of the music.

In that sense, to me, it makes sense to first learn a short phrase very slow to get all the detail. But before adding a new phrase you must first experience the first phrase somewhere in the ball park of the actual tempo. What we see instead is students learn entire Pieces of music at half speed and after lots of practice and mastery down in that range the attempt to increase tempo hits a brick wall far below the lower threshold of the actual tempo. It is the wrong ball park.

The idea of playing for dance classes is there will be transitions during footwork that require guitarists to slip between “ball parks” seamlessly, usually with simple thematic falsetas or compas strumming but the concept of changing gears of feeling as tempo increases is what you learn. Later applying this to tricky solo guitar stuff certainly helps when learning challenging material slow but with a forward looking concept that the fast tempo will change things drasticall


Thanks for the explanation Ricardo!!!! Lots of GREAT information and I am reading slow to really understand.

Last night I did change the tempo and I was able to handle it...I guess maybe I was inspired by your video...

Even in my Solea I was able to play at 80 bpm in stead of the usual 50 bpm....The buleria I learned from our beloved El Rumbero (I LOVE his composition) I can now play at 160 bpm..

I will try to post the video this weekend so you all can see what I am doing...Hopefully it will be okay...

Kalo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 17 2021 19:44:16
 
Filip

 

Posts: 284
Joined: Apr. 23 2006
From: Paris

RE: Practicing- (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Practice makes PERMINANT, not perfect. So if you practice slow with no mistakes, all you are doing is mastering the slow tempo. In order to play something at the correct tempo, you need to practice at THAT exact tempo. I would admit that there are ranges where the feeling is pretty similar. For example you want to play a tango at 160, practicing at 150 range will get you there, but 100 will not. If you feel 100 is NOT achievable even, you need to start a phrase at 150 right away, and loop it small bits, like two beats at a time looped, fixing the errors each pass until you do it many many times in a row perfectly, then add the next two beats or so. I am sure you have seen this video but it is basically how I think all falsetas or compas phrases should be learned. This is not a prepared video, you are watching me actually learn and master the thing


This is how I leant the intro of Guardian Angel, and this is probably my best played falseta (second to none if I take into account the effort taken to learn it). Another thing about it is that I can still remember the whole falseta and can get back to the same level of playing after a very short practice time.

Ricardo, I also read your following comment about doing one falseta slow, then fast, and then going to the next falseta. I guess the answer to this might be obvious, but in that Tomatito falseta are you actually looking at the scores (I can't really tell) or you memorised the falseta first?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 17 2021 20:13:06
 
etta

 

Posts: 314
Joined: Jan. 20 2010
 

RE: Practicing- (in reply to Kaloguitarist

I play few "gigs", weddings, wine tastings, etc., and played for a dance group for a while. I did meet with a small guitar group, mostly classical, but covid has put that group on hold for now. So, I play for myself, and it is often the highlight of my day. I work on technique but also explore original variations that come to my head. I guess in short I jam with the guitar for my entertainment while trying to improve technique and exploring new options on traditional forms. I do record a number of these tunes, (several hundred by now), and listening critically does help me improve. For me, this is never work, but pure pleasure with the guitar, for me, and anyone who might care to listen.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 17 2021 22:16:51
 
Brendan

Posts: 244
Joined: Oct. 30 2010
 

RE: Practicing- (in reply to Stu

quote:

Probably just wanted to share those tips with you. and was then was shocked to see it was 6 years ago. ya know..time flies etc.


Yes, this, no snark intended. And we should return to these old questions, they don’t get stale though the old answers might. Something I’ve understood much better since six years ago is how easy it is to neglect the left hand. If there’s a sticky bit in a piece that I can’t get to sound right, it’s almost always my left hand at fault. And I wasn’t thinking much about dynamics. Got a piece up to speed? Can you play it too loud and too quiet? At a steady volume? With wildly various dynamics? Strict tempo and then with over the top lush rubato? Etc..

I’m still not accomplished but I’ve had six more years practice at talking about practice.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 17 2021 22:30:00
 
Kaloguitarist

 

Posts: 109
Joined: May 12 2020
 

RE: Practicing- (in reply to Stu

quote:

es, this, no snark intended. And we should return to these old questions, they don’t get stale though the old answers might. Something I’ve understood much better since six years ago is how easy it is to neglect the left hand. If there’s a sticky bit in a piece that I can’t get to sound right, it’s almost always my left hand at fault. And I wasn’t thinking much about dynamics. Got a piece up to speed? Can you play it too loud and too quiet? At a steady volume? With wildly various dynamics? Strict tempo and then with over the top lush rubato? Etc..

I’m still not accomplished but I’ve had six more years practice at talking about practice.


It's all good and I seriously enjoying everyone's contribution. It's not only helping me, I am sure it will help others as well...

Kalo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 17 2021 22:41:33
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12992
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Practicing- (in reply to Filip

quote:

I guess the answer to this might be obvious, but in that Tomatito falseta are you actually looking at the scores (I can't really tell) or you memorised the falseta first?


So it is a good question. There was a challenge on foro linked below and you can see our discussion in real time where I had to find the video and book in my library and learn it, or get the fingerings from both video and book, then make video of how I practice it, upload it to YouTube, copy the link to foro etc. it used to take some time to do all that compared to now with phones. The time between my posts was 10:11 to 11:28. What I remember is I watched the video several times to get the fingerings, then used the book to confirm the positions and the pick up note timings (most occur before the foot tap rather than after). Yes I had the book in front of me in case I got stuck. But honestly I never used the book in the actual video because the timing of the notes sort of add up in a way that retained it all. That does not always happen sometimes I realize I am off time or the notes don’t add up, then I check the source and realize I skipped something. The main point is to let the timing groove lead your fingers, not vice versa.

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=136277&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=victor%2Cwooten&tmode=&smode=&s=#136380

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 18 2021 15:53:57
 
Filip

 

Posts: 284
Joined: Apr. 23 2006
From: Paris

RE: Practicing- (in reply to Stu

Cool, thanks Ricardo.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 18 2021 21:53:26
 
Fluknu

 

Posts: 110
Joined: Jan. 11 2021
 

RE: Practicing- (in reply to Stu

Hi Kalo and all,
Yes....it's really a helpfull discussion. I've been stuck at snail pace for some falsetas and I applied these tricks in the last couple of days. It got me out of it straight away. I sped up and wooaw,, after a few sessions it's way better.

One thing though, it feels more exhausting, as if it's taking more concentration/energy. So I naturally adapted my routine and played for shorter amount of time and doing more micro pause.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 19 2021 15:29:48
 
Kaloguitarist

 

Posts: 109
Joined: May 12 2020
 

RE: Practicing- (in reply to Stu

quote:

Yes....it's really a helpfull discussion. I've been stuck at snail pace for some falsetas and I applied these tricks in the last couple of days. It got me out of it straight away. I sped up and wooaw,, after a few sessions it's way better.

One thing though, it feels more exhausting, as if it's taking more concentration/energy. So I naturally adapted my routine and played for shorter amount of time and doing more micro pause.


YES, this is exactly what I experienced too. I found out i could play Buleria at 170 speed...Though I still take it down notch because all exactly what you said...

What has helped me is warming up a slower pace then go for the speed.

Who would of thought that once know the falsetta and or compas that if you keep playing slow after you know it, it will never help you build speed...

Ricardo videos is awesome and that is great information from a pro player to which many would never share....

Kalo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 20 2021 15:14:34
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 969
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Practicing- (in reply to Kaloguitarist

quote:

I guess, I am wondering if all the accomplished guitarist practice more techniques before they learned to really play.

I'm not an accomplished player. But I say yes. Practice and master all techniques before. I will never play something with a sloppy technique.

quote:


Alzapua: 40bpm triplet cause I just started learning this one...

I don't practice arpeggios too much because I get enough practice in the falsetta's I have learned.

I am good at amii, but, PAI and A.I still need little improvement...

Even though I can play them a decent speed, I still make mistakes now then and want to practice clean.

I have the impression you haven't learned flamenco techniques fully. A few steps back and learn them properly. Practice and master them.
After that you don't need to practice techniques. You only play and enjoy. By doing so you'll maintain your techniques.

_____________________________

Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 28 2021 14:50:22
 
kitarist

Posts: 1283
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Practicing- (in reply to devilhand

quote:

I have the impression you haven't learned...


Kalo: the guy writing the above seems to like trolling and generally putting people down, yet is such a beginner guitarist in flamenco that he doesn't even own a flamenco guitar yet; a good example of proper use of the phrase 'his ignorance is only exceeded by his arrogance". Treat accordingly.

_____________________________

Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 28 2021 16:02:17
 
Kaloguitarist

 

Posts: 109
Joined: May 12 2020
 

RE: Practicing- (in reply to Stu

quote:

Kalo: the guy writing the above seems to like trolling and generally putting people down, yet is such a beginner guitarist in flamenco that he doesn't even own a flamenco guitar yet; a good example of proper use of the phrase 'his ignorance is only exceeded by his arrogance". Treat accordingly.


LOL, and that is why I ignored his post

But, still I appreciate your help and everyone that has responded!!!

Kalo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 29 2021 15:31:12
 
bahen

Posts: 312
Joined: Mar. 4 2006
 

RE: Practicing- (in reply to johnnefastis

The video by Grisha on tempos was revelatory for me, especially where he suggests playing faster than what the piece calls for as a way to make the actual tempo more comfortable for oneself (and deal with stage nerves, apparently).
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 29 2021 16:56:37
 
Kaloguitarist

 

Posts: 109
Joined: May 12 2020
 

RE: Practicing- (in reply to Stu

quote:

The video by Grisha on tempos was revelatory for me, especially where he suggests playing faster than what the piece calls for as a way to make the actual tempo more comfortable for oneself (and deal with stage nerves, apparently).


Yes, someone on this forum pointed out the Grisha video and it is eye opening. Go on the first page and watch Ricardo in action with regard with learning and speed! Lots of great stuff...

Kalo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 29 2021 17:57:13
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 969
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Practicing- (in reply to Kaloguitarist

quote:

LOL, and that is why I ignored his post

It's your choice. I just wanted to help you.

quote:

I just feel like i just keep practicing the same compas and falsetta's over and over...SLOW...and at times when played up to speed (which I can easily do) make errors! Not a lot, but, I can't understand why they are not without them! You would think by practicing slow I would make no mistakes at all..

Which techniques are used for that falseta? In general if you have trouble with speed, it's a sign your hand, wrist, arm and shoulder are not relaxed. Get rid of that tension, plus exessive finger movements, which is also crucial when it comes to play fast.

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Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 2 2021 22:11:13
 
chester

Posts: 830
Joined: Oct. 29 2010
 

RE: Practicing- (in reply to devilhand

quote:

if you have trouble with speed, it's a sign your hand, wrist, arm and shoulder are not relaxed

my picado is the fastest when i'm asleep
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 3 2021 2:30:11
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 969
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Practicing- (in reply to chester

quote:

ORIGINAL: chester

quote:

if you have trouble with speed, it's a sign your hand, wrist, arm and shoulder are not relaxed

my picado is the fastest when i'm asleep

Awesome. You finally got the interplay between speed and relaxation. Maestro Paco is demonstrating it in this video.

https://youtu.be/o-YBDTqX_ZU

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Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 4 2021 21:23:31
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 969
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Practicing- (in reply to Kaloguitarist

@Kaloguitarist

At 6:36-7:26 he explains what I wanted to point out in my previous posts above. Particularly at 6:58. Basically it's the same message from a foro member Erik van Goch. Some of the very best advice on the foro. It can be applied to everything - mastering a technique or learning falsetta or a piece.

The smaller the object of your focus the bigger the result.



@kitarist

quote:

both actions qualify as 'technique exercises' in my book

So you wrote a book? I could write a short and nice review about your book.

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Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 19 2021 16:02:57
 
Stu

Posts: 1923
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Practicing- (in reply to devilhand

Devil hand, why don't you ever use emojis to let everyone know you are joking?

I mean that has to be a joke right?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 20 2021 11:35:38
 
Kaloguitarist

 

Posts: 109
Joined: May 12 2020
 

RE: Practicing- (in reply to Stu

quote:

Devil hand, why don't you ever use emojis to let everyone know you are joking?

I mean that has to be a joke right?


Stu, I would forget asking the emoji question to Devil hand. I don't know him personally and I would never want to attack anyone on this forum.

Maybe he really means well by his comments and is trying to help! I am still waiting for him to make a video of his progress...

What I do not understand is how he can learn/play flamenco on a classical guitar properly.

Giving advise on flamenco technique, relaxing while playing, or even buying a flamenco guitar or whether someone should just stick to classical guitar and drop flamenco guitar is not cool. Especially not cool when he doesn't even OWN a flamenco guitar and has NEVER posted a video of his progress.

Kalo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 20 2021 16:26:06
 
Stu

Posts: 1923
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Practicing- (in reply to Kaloguitarist

Yeah, I believe he means well.

I'm not attacking him.

I just think some show of emotion would help his cause. A laugh, a smiling/winking face etc.

Plus a little more humility! 😄

Asking the most basic of questions and then appearing to lecture others on more advanced matters!

Thing is no one really knows a thing about him.. I mean he could be an 8 year old kid. Are you an 8 year old kid devilhand?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 20 2021 17:12:30
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 969
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Practicing- (in reply to Kaloguitarist

quote:

What I do not understand is how he can learn/play flamenco on a classical guitar properly.

I converted my classical into flamenco negra. My 1977 cedar top Ramirez knock off sounds muy flamenco and is better than any 500-1000€ flamenco guitar on the market today. That's why I haven't upgraded it yet. I'm still working on my techniques. What I had to do was to lower the string height at the bridge. The string action at the bridge is now 7-8mm. The height over the 6th string is even lower 5-6mm. Capirote no problem. Plus the string height at the 12th fret 2.8-3mm. It doesn't get any better than this.

_____________________________

Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 21 2021 19:59:02
 
Kaloguitarist

 

Posts: 109
Joined: May 12 2020
 

RE: Practicing- (in reply to Stu

quote:

What I do not understand is how he can learn/play flamenco on a classical guitar properly.

I converted my classical into flamenco negra. My 1977 cedar top Ramirez knock off sounds muy flamenco and is better than any 500-1000€ flamenco guitar on the market today. That's why I haven't upgraded it yet. I'm still working on my techniques. What I had to do was to lower the string height at the bridge. The string action at the bridge is now 7-8mm. The height over the 6th string is even lower 5-6mm. Capirote no problem. Plus the string height at the 12th fret 2.8-3mm. It doesn't get any better than this.


I am happy that you were able to convert your classical guitar into flamenco.

I am surprised you were able to drop the bridge action to 7-8mm. Classical guitar neck angle is not made to do that.

I had a Takamine classical guitar and while I could drop the action low, I could not get the bridge action at all again do to how a classical guitar is made neck angle wise.

I am glad yours works for you to learn.

Kalo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 22 2021 15:03:38
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 969
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Practicing- (in reply to Kaloguitarist

quote:

I am surprised you were able to drop the bridge action to 7-8mm. Classical guitar neck angle is not made to do that.

I didn't change the neck angle. It was not possible. I attached a 4mm thick and light sheet of plastic to the top of the guitar.
I covered them with touch screen cleaner pads (1mm thick). They are soft and sticky and can be easily attached to plastic. Everything can be removed from the guitar easily whenever I want. But why should I? So the top of the guitar is not damaged. I know it's a very odd and unconventional way. But it worked for me. As a result golpe sounds a bit different though. But it doesn't bother me.

Touch screen cleaner pads
https://www.ginifab.com/mobile_accessories/img/sticky_ipad_cleaner_3.jpg

_____________________________

Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 22 2021 19:21:48
 
Brendan

Posts: 244
Joined: Oct. 30 2010
 

RE: Practicing- (in reply to Stu

He’s Jason McGuire having a laugh. It’s brilliantly done.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 23 2021 9:07:22
 
Piwin

Posts: 3298
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Practicing- (in reply to Brendan

If that's more than a hunch, then you should talk to Simon about it since the forum explicitly doesn't allow the whole false identity thing.

_____________________________

"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 23 2021 13:47:09
 
RobF

Posts: 1116
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Practicing- (in reply to Piwin

quote:

If that's more than a hunch, then you should talk to Simon about it since the forum explicitly doesn't allow the whole false identity thing.

Just ask Karnak the Magnificent...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 23 2021 13:53:19
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