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RE: Is it possible to revive an old guitar?   You are logged in as Guest
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estebanana

Posts: 9030
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Is it possible to revive an old ... (in reply to ernandez R) 
What is interesting about that top is that Santos picked it, which means he didn’t always have the cream of the crop 5% wood to work with. It also dispels Romanillos’ maxim that only split zero run out tops will suffice. It could also mean that too had localized grain runout… it could mean a lot of things both pro and con regarding runout.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 30 2021 16:01:59
 
Morante

 

Posts: 2015
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Is it possible to revive an old ... (in reply to RobJe) 
quote:

News of the quality of Reyes guitars seems to have reached cultural anthropologist David George from Wisconsin by the 1960s – but he did spend a lot of time in Spain


I remember reading the book and asking myself if Geoge had sufficent knowlege to write such a superficile book.

I knew the scene in Londres and their Reyes: tried to buy a good guitar there but: Jingles tried to sell me a dud from Jerónimo de Jaen, which he used to import. (It was great to see him again a couple of years ago in Nerja) The only guitar which ever impressed me was a Gerundino which I played in Dublin.

Since I knew that Reyes was not to be trusted, I went to Almería to talk to Gerundio.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 30 2021 16:34:51
 
Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3013
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Is it possible to revive an old ... (in reply to ernandez R) 
quote:

When I first saw that photo and noted the run out of the top I had to wonder how that piece of wood made its way into a guitar top and not the wood stove? It looks as though it's at least 15:1 out? I've split most of my spruce from local logs myself but I've also had some old blocks rough milled that I've re sawn and can't say I've had the runout any more then the thickness along the full length.

Wouldn't it be ironic if this kind of runout, although structurally inferior, was sonically superior?

HR


Runout in turn can also make for a weaker bridge-top joint since you are gluing onto something closer to endgrain. Usually it’s not that big of a deal unless some extreme weather is involved as Mr. Faulk pointed out.
To your last point though, one of my little theories that I've had for a while now, is that there may be something to that. From my own experience, runout may introduce an asymmetry to how the top vibrates that I think could be beneficial for tone production. To the point that if I'm using a top with little to no runout, sometimes I will introduce some asymmetry to the bracing, bridge or top thickness to compensate for that, though in a very different way of course.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 30 2021 18:38:41
 
estebanana

Posts: 9030
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Is it possible to revive an old ... (in reply to estebanana) 
Say what you will about the shallowness of David George, his real contribution was that of photographer of flamenco persons. Along with the great Steve Kahn he recorded some of the most important moments and images of a world of flamenco that’s lost now. So if not for a small group of American photographers much of the nitty gritty of flamenco culture would have gone visually unrecorded.

https://www.tomares.es/vive-tomares/noticias/la-exposicion-fotografica-flamenco-project-una-mirada-de-la-vision-extranjera

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 30 2021 20:03:11
 
estebanana

Posts: 9030
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Is it possible to revive an old ... (in reply to Morante) 
quote:

News of the quality of Reyes guitars seems to have reached cultural anthropologist David George from Wisconsin by the 1960s – but he did spend a lot of time in Spain


I remember reading the book and asking myself if Geoge had sufficent knowlege to write such a superficile book.


Well golly you’re no literary critic are ya…

If you ask if someone has sufficient knowledge to write an authoritative book, you might be onto something, but writing a superficial book is a task for an author that lacks sufficient knowledge. Haha 😂

“The author wrote such a superficial book about the subject that one wonders if he worked hard at unlearning the facts of his subject.”

That’s a great review….

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 30 2021 20:08:51
 
Echi

 

Posts: 1061
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Is it possible to revive an old ... (in reply to estebanana) 
quote:

From my own experience, runout may introduce an asymmetry to how the top vibrates that I think could be beneficial for tone production. To the point that if I'm using a top with little to no runout, sometimes I will introduce some asymmetry to the bracing, bridge or top thickness to compensate for that, though in a very different way of course

I have no explanation for that but as a matter of fact some one of the best guitars I tried had an evident runout.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 1 2021 6:19:04
 
RobJe

 

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Is it possible to revive an old ... (in reply to estebanana) 
quote:

“The author wrote such a superficial book about the subject that one wonders if he worked hard at unlearning the facts of his subject.”


The author had the necessary minimum knowledge to write a superficial book.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 1 2021 11:32:33
 
estebanana

Posts: 9030
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Is it possible to revive an old ... (in reply to RobJe) 
quote:



The author had the necessary minimum knowledge to write a superficial book.


“The book is a tour de force of less than mediocre expertise written ostensibly by an author of uncannily superficial gifts.”

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 1 2021 15:04:20
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13955
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Is it possible to revive an old ... (in reply to RobJe) 
quote:

The second was to ask Pepe Martinez to bring you a guitar. Pepe, who was from Seville, is widely known for championing Reyes’ guitars and for introducing him to Barbero. The lyrical qualities of Reyes guitars were sell suited to Pepe’s playing. He had a wonderful 1924 Santos which he used in his concerts and I suspect that he was searching for possible replacements. There was a vibrant flamenco scene in London with plenty of Spanish immigrants (economic migrants and those escaping from Franco’s limpieza social and lot’s of Brits taking dancing and guitar lessons. I have no idea how many Reyes guitars arrived via Pepe but he travelled to the UK at least once a year for nearly 20 years.


Pepe used David (jose) Rubio built guitars in NY and later Britain, seen in Rito y Geografia. Rubio also built guitars for Bream. He claims to have learned in Conde’s shop, “undercover” lol.

I used to have this book I can’t find now, sort of a “fan” book about Carlos Montoya with B/W photos and interviews. He says Barbaro/Arcangel are the best guitars for flamenco, and that they only last about 10 years of heavy playing and you have to buy a new one.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 1 2021 15:31:57
 
Echi

 

Posts: 1061
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Is it possible to revive an old ... (in reply to estebanana) 
Rubio was a great guitar maker in all regards (as Ricardo said his guitars have been played by Bream and others) and it's correct he started as flamenco player and maker, being always hanging around for a year in the Conde shop in Madrid to meet musicians: he is basically self taught.
Nonetheless after he got his deserved success he basically drove to alternative and complicate instruments of every sort and let the production of classical guitar to the Rubio shop (Fischer Sato and another guy).
Probably Pepe Martinez had to find another luthier and as said he was a good friend with Reyes.
Truth is that Paco Pena sold a lot of Gerundinas in London, probably making some money (as many other players with other makers).
I suppose Pepe Martinez wanted to do basically the same with the guitars made by Reyes
Again, Gerundino and Reyes are great makers, don't get me wrong, but I suppose they became famous after a good player is seen using them.

The book doesn't mean too much either: I still remember when I read the Summerfield book saying that Lopez Nieto and Raya Pardo were on the list of the 5 best guitar makers of all times..... Old books are fascinating
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 1 2021 16:11:56
 
estebanana

Posts: 9030
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Is it possible to revive an old ... (in reply to estebanana) 
The story on Rubio that’s public lore is different from what I heard from people who knew him in NY, which is where he built his first guitars. I know four people who related the story of how he began making guitars, and it wasn’t by snooping in the Conde’ shop, although that probably didn’t hurt. He told Bream, his fellow Englishman, he could deliver a good guitar, but he was a rank beginner. He built a few for Bream, but he was coached by a couple other makers who harbored mild resentment and grew laugh about it. But I’ll never reveal the story online. You have to buy me a drink if you want to hear it, but it’s direct from those who played guitar with him in NY.

Rubio became a good maker, but it didn’t happen because he was a lone autodidact, there were people in NY that basically taught him and he was a fast learner. As for his self mythology, that’s a thing. He did become a good violin maker, so hats off.

I’m not a fan of his guitars, but what I admire is his shift to bring a legit violin maker and his shop organization skills at delegating assignments to people he hired to work under his umbrella. He was a smart guy, but his early self mythology is probably intentionally hazy . 😂

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 2 2021 1:35:55
 
Echi

 

Posts: 1061
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Is it possible to revive an old ... (in reply to estebanana) 
These stories go always like that and the truth is in the lines of the many versions of the story: I suppose it's true that he used to hung around the Conde shop but it's also possible he emphasised the story to get a kind of legitimation and grew up as a maker with the good advices of experienced people: it's not uncommon: Kohno used to hung around to the shop of Arcangel, Bouchet to the shop of Gomez Ramirez etc..
Anyway, the guitars of Rubio have their own place in the history of guitar making and are still praised in the market with a high target price.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 2 2021 6:42:39
 
RobF

Posts: 1425
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Is it possible to revive an old ... (in reply to Echi) 
quote:

I suppose it's true that he used to hung around the Conde shop but it's also possible he emphasised the story to get a kind of legitimation and grew up as a maker with the good advices of experienced people: it's not uncommon: Kohno used to hung around to the shop of Arcangel, Bouchet to the shop of Gomez Ramirez etc..

It’s kind of funny, but considering that Arcangel was the only known apprentice of Barbero, and if Kohno’s mythology is to be accepted, then he may likely have established a more solid pedagogical link to Barbero than our man Reyes had.

I guess in some ways the shop associations made by talented makers early in their careers can be considered part of their mythology, but it can’t be overstated how valuable even relatively brief visits to the shops of established makers can be to a burgeoning maker, one whom has already gained sufficient knowledge and experience to understand and appreciate what they’re seeing and being told. In that sense, they’re past expecting to be spoon fed anything and are at the point where a morsel of information casually tossed their way can actually be, to them, a feast. In truth, it might represent the key which opens the door to their next level, and years may have been spent in preparation to take advantage of the moment.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 2 2021 11:49:26
 
RobJe

 

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Is it possible to revive an old ... (in reply to Echi) 
David Spink aka Jose Rubio aka David Rubio was one of many young British men who abandoned the careers that their parents had hoped they would pursue, dreaming of becoming full time flamenco artists. My teacher Michael Leigh, like David, abandoned his medical studies for flamenco. They both took lessons from Pepe Martinez. I have some stories about family reactions to their decisions but they are probably best left buried. Perhaps I can just report that one involved a Barbero guitar being thrown down the stairs, completely destroying it. Michael abandoned his dream and went into the pharmaceutical industry, David went to Spain to became Jose Rubio, eventually travelling as a guitarist with the Rafael de Cordoba Company to New York where he met his wife. I note that on the remaining David Rubio website archive his move to Spain is described as ‘running away with the gypsies’.

I think that it is accurate to describe Pepe’s students in the UK as disciples. They gave him board and lodging, arranged paying concerts in their homes. He in return treated them like friends, bringing rare recordings and other items from Spain and writing to them in his peculiar half Spanish half English style. I remember the first concert I went to in a big house in West London. Pepe sat smoking a large cigar tuning his guitar which had received new strings (a gift from the owner of the house) that morning. I managed to get a chair, latecomers sat on the carpet in front of their idol. Someone had a tape recorder and had permission to record and distribute copies. But Pepe of course had a good commercial brain. He made a successful freelance career for himself at a time when the Spanish economy was in very bad shape. Michael Leigh once described him to me as a ‘loveable rogue’.

It is hardly surprising that Pepe played a Rubio guitar in concert in the USA. They were friends from long back. I believe that Jose (I think that he became David when he returned to England) studied for a while with the Cuban luthier Miguel Company in Miami. I have only seen pictures of one Rubio flamenco guitar. Does anyone know of more?

Rob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 2 2021 12:01:21
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