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A CANTE Flamenco is NOT a SONG!!!   You are logged in as Guest
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flamencoMAPS

 

Posts: 8
Joined: May 14 2021
 

A CANTE Flamenco is NOT a SONG!!! 

Hello dear flamenc@s!
A new video where I explain why a flamenco cante is NOT a song!
Different concepts, different structures, different ways of creating a musical moment!
12 reasons why we shouldn’t use the word SONG in flamenco, but keep the original word CANTE.

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flamencoMAPS, by Guillermo Guillén
https://flamencomaps.com/
https://guillermoguillen.com/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 28 2021 22:50:58
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3239
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: A CANTE Flamenco is NOT a SONG!!! (in reply to flamencoMAPS

quote:

Hello dear flamencxs!


"Flamencxs"? Is this an attempt to extend the bastardization of Spanish by those who refer to Latinos and Latinas as "Latinx" to the world of flamenco? Neither "Latinx" nor "flamencx" can be considered Spanish. Both are attempts to appear "woke" (to use the ungrammatical English term currently in vogue among those who consider themselves "woke")?

As to "cante" not being "song," nor "cantar" meaning "to sing," I suggest that is a subjective opinion. I'm not saying one cannot hold that opinion, but it cannot be considered a categorical truth. Mongolian and Tuvan throat singing might just as well be considered as not "singing," but most ethno-musicologists would disagree, just as I suspect they would disagree with the opinion that "cante" does not refer to "song." Everyone, however, is entitled to his opinion.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 28 2021 23:46:51
 
flamencoMAPS

 

Posts: 8
Joined: May 14 2021
 

RE: A CANTE Flamenco is NOT a SONG!!! (in reply to BarkellWH

Thank you very much for your comment. I enjoy the exchange of ideas and the different points of view.
I agree with the subject of "flamencxs" which I replaced by "flamenc@ s". It is an inclusive writing, which makes possible to group together all the interlocutors without gender, or rather including all the genres, without giving priority. It was friendly, but I understand that it might have bothered you. On the other hand, I did not understand the references to the "bastardizacion" and the Latin people. I imagine it's because of my lack of references this side of the ocean.
About the cante, of course, this is ONLY my opinion (what's not, after all?). I take the term "song" here as a musical form (verse chorus verse chorus ...) that we do not find (or very little) in flamenco. In the video, I give twelve reasons, twelve differences to support my idea.
My objective is educational: to explain concepts which are specific to flamenco and which cannot be found in popular songs and which differ from our Western concepts and forms. Not to get into a war of words.

In the same way, but here I venture a little because it is not my field, I would perhaps find it inappropriate to call "song" an Indian raga or a "joik" Sami.

In Spanish there are two words: "canción" and "cante", it is for this reason: they do not mean the same thing.
If we really had to translate "cante" I would prefer "singing", which leaves a door open.
These are the limits of translation. Of the extent of certain words. And I find it fascinating!
Perhaps the statement is a little too peremptory. It's just a way to get attention, nothing more.
Thank you again for these rich exchanges of ideas!

_____________________________

flamencoMAPS, by Guillermo Guillén
https://flamencomaps.com/
https://guillermoguillen.com/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 29 2021 1:38:21
 
BarkellWH

 

Posts: 3239
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
 

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at May 29 2021 2:25:42
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 29 2021 2:25:08
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3239
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: A CANTE Flamenco is NOT a SONG!!! (in reply to flamencoMAPS

quote:

It is an inclusive writing, which makes possible to group together all the interlocutors without gender, or rather including all the genres, without giving priority. It was friendly, but I understand that it might have bothered you. On the other hand, I did not understand the references to the "bastardizacion" and the Latin people. I imagine it's because of my lack of references this side of the ocean.


It does not "bother" me, but it is not Spanish. Spanish, like German and many other languages, is gender-based. German, in fact, has three genders: masculine, feminine, and neuter.

By "bastardization" of the Spanish language I mean the attempt to deprive it of its gender-based fundamentals. To do so renders it something other than Spanish. Here in the United States there has been something similar which I referred to regarding Latinos and Latinas. Like your "flamencx," there are some (a small percentage, usually in the universities) who want to do away with the genders by using the term "Latinx." This group wants to use the term to do away with gender, and to include so-called "non-binary" individuals who claim they identify as neither male nor female. Such a small group, however, should not be the determinants of language use, whether it be Spanish, English, or any other language.

Regarding "cante" vs. "cancion" in Spanish, I understand the distinction you are attempting to make. Nevertheless, I think that both can be rendered in English and subsumed under the term "song." Each represents a style or genre of "song." It hardly matters, however, since most of us just use the term "cante," whether in Spanish or English.

In any case, as you note, an exchange of ideas is always welcome.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 29 2021 2:26:43
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12957
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: A CANTE Flamenco is NOT a SONG!!! (in reply to flamencoMAPS

In a room full of guys, girls and queer and transgender people, the spanish language “o” already catches all the info, that is how the language works. Like the word in English “musicians” catches all genders.

As for cante. Cancón=song yes. Cante= “a specific melody of a specific song form in the Spanish Flamenco genre”. And it can also mean flamenco singing in general. That is why when a singer sings Soleá, they sing various CANTES, with an “S” referring to various melodies at work. And “Cante” is a general thing as well depending on contextual usage.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 29 2021 16:31:13
 
Escribano

Posts: 6252
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: A CANTE Flamenco is NOT a SONG!!! (in reply to Ricardo

In Italy, where is not clear, it mostly defaults to "o" which is the masculine (maschile). Same with all latin languages, I assume.

You are not going to change a 1000-year-old language particularly quickly. It will depend upon the majority for adoption.

Using "they" instead of "he" or "she" as a pronoun, introduces a whole world of confusion.

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Foro Flamenco founder and Admin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 29 2021 21:04:09
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3239
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: A CANTE Flamenco is NOT a SONG!!! (in reply to Escribano

What those who are so sensitive over what they perceive as the use of the masculine gender in Spanish to capture all genders and orientations don't realize is that in doing so, it is no longer the masculine gender. Although spelled the same, in the context of addressing "flamencos" or "Latinos" (to include all genders) with the use of the "o," the meaning clearly has become inclusive, not just masculine. And one avoids contrived nonsense such as "flamencx" and Latinx."

The same thing exists in English with "man." Speaking of a "man" or "men," the context makes it clear when the reference is to males. Context makes it equally clear that when a statement such as, "Man began to walk upright," is used, the term "man" refers to both males and females. It no longer is referring to males alone. The meaning has changed. Nevertheless, gender-sensitive types consider it a micro-aggression to use the term "mankind" to refer to human beings of both genders. So we are saddled with the awkward term "humankind."

And you are correct in your observation that the use of third-person plural pronouns "they," "their," and "them," so beloved by "non-binary" types who want them used when referring to them in the third-person singular, leads to confusion, not to mention further bastardization of the English language.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 29 2021 22:22:12
 
Piwin

 

Posts: 3296
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

[Deleted] 

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at May 30 2021 5:58:13
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 30 2021 3:02:59
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