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Who out there learns entire PDL pieces ?   You are logged in as Guest
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joevidetto

 

Posts: 91
Joined: Jun. 15 2013
 

Who out there learns entire PDL pieces ? 

Hi all,

I know that learning an entire PDL piece takes an enormous amount of work - and most flamencos don't do it that way - rather learning just the falsetas they like. And that makes sense.

As a "professional student" - someone who enjoys learning how the piece is played, it's harmonies, and often falls short of actually executing the piece in a way that could be played for others, I usually work through whole pieces. I know I should practice these pieces up to performance level - but I just don't seem to make the time to do that. I wonder if there are others like me out there.

Shortfalls aside - I was wondering if you try and learn entire PDL pieces, and if you'd like to - share which ones you've worked through in their entirety.

I am still on the early paco bulerias pieces - working through El Tempul and Cepa. I've learned a falseta or 2 from Jerenzana - but the compas patterns and finding the starting/ending of those along with the start/end of some of the falsetas seem to throw me off in that one.

What is the most recent PDL piece you've learned in it's entirety ? Have you recorded or videod it ? Please share : )
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 17 2021 14:19:21
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12673
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to joevidetto

Guajiras
Tempul
Panaderos
Mantilla de Feria
Fiesta en Moguer
Punta del Faro
Entre dos Aguas
Plaza Alta (long long long time ago)
Friday Night in Sanfrancisco (all)
Chanela
Passion Grace and Fire (All)
La Barrosa (long long time ago as well)
Zyryab
Cancion de Amor
Letter from India
Cardeosa

I have performed all that stuff in recent years except for plaza Alta and La barrosa, but bulerias I usually do a historical mixture from old to new material. Sadly I have not had much practice time on those during pandemic.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 17 2021 15:45:36
 
joevidetto

 

Posts: 91
Joined: Jun. 15 2013
 

RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to Ricardo

That's quite impressive - I know that you are one of the top players here in the Foro. It will be interesting to see who else has done more than 4 or 5.

I should have phrased this as "concert pieces" and not limited it to PDL.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 17 2021 19:30:20
 
Filip

 

Posts: 266
Joined: Apr. 23 2006
From: Paris

RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to joevidetto

The only complete piece that I ever learnt and played is Entre dos Aguas, so long ago that now I remember only a few notes of the first falseta.

I never learnt any other piece in entirety, but I've done a few almost entire ones from various players (with only one or two falsetas missing):
Casilda (but that was really bad playing)
Bronce Gitano (Sabicas)
Punta y Tacon (Sabicas)
Percusion Flamenca (Paco)
Callejon del Muro (Paco)
La Ardilla (Tomatito)
La Cartuja (Gerardo Nuñez)
Paso Doble (Gerardo)
Morente (Vicente Amigo)
Barrio la Viña (Paco, only first half)
Mix of Camaron and Mi Niño Curro

Sadly I haven't recorded anything except a short falseta of Percusion Flamenca Paco's rondeña while I practiced it. I had a video of me playing Casilda but I want to forget about it :)
Needless to say, these are all concert pieces but my playing was not :)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 18 2021 9:03:48
 
Piwin

Posts: 3162
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to joevidetto

Guajiras
Percussion
Barrosa
Canta el Gallo
Reflejo de Luna
things he played but didn't compose:
Impetu
Panaderos
Mantilla de Feria

Those are the ones I can mostly play from memory. (Not saying I'm playing them well though. ^^) The rest is bits and pieces, a falseta here and there. For instance the A minor bit at the end of La Canada. I learned that but never the full piece. And then there are other pieces that I worked through but didn't stick with long enough to commit them to memory. Like Casilda or Almoraima. I could probably get them back with some work but a lot of it I just forgot. I don't have any pieces I've studied recently. I've been thinking about giving Fuente y Caudal another go after listening to Luciano's interpretation of it, but that'll have to wait until I have more time. At some point in the future I'd like to try my hand at Rio de la Miel.

Sabicas and Esteban de Sanlucar are probably the bulk of the pieces I can play from memory. The worst one for me is Vicente Amigo. I studied a lot of his pieces, and I don't remember a single one...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 18 2021 9:46:27
 
Auda

 

Posts: 201
Joined: Sep. 28 2019
 

RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to joevidetto

I guess I approach it differently. I have to learn the entire piece. When I get into one it is, mostly, at the exclusion of all others. I have been giving Flamenco a go for just over 1.5 years and have no real interest at this time to be a "real" Flamenco player as what it appears to be defined on the forum as I am more interested in the solo pieces.

A partial list of pieces I have learned:

Guajiras
Almoraima
Reflejo de Luna
Noches de Arabia
Zambra Granadina
Arabian Dance (anon)
Aires de Triana
Bulerias (Sabicas as played by Grisha)
Zapateado en Re
Aires de Puerto Real
Damascos
Fantasia Arabe

On most all of them I can play the sections/passages up to speed and cleanly though most of the time I am not consistent to string them all together.

I have not recorded any of them but have been thinking about recording a section of Malagueña de Lecuona to solicit feedback.

Cheers
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 18 2021 14:32:41
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12673
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to joevidetto

Many years back, I noticed that a lot of my favorite falsetas were not part of guitar solos but very impactful as interludes for cante. For example this for Duquende samaruco album:



These two were in the same key so made a nice pair, Diego del Morao was the new hot player and this was for Niña Pastori from cadiz who had radio hits...and the amazing buleria extremeña “por fia” battle between Potito and Guadiana “en casa de Herrero” was introduced by Tomatito’s falseta:



It was hard work getting those correct, but I really feel this material, for my tastes, constitute the high point in the evolution of flamenco guitar. It is telling they were never part of “guitar solo pieces”. I guess d. Morao finally recorded that one after 10 years of playing it, but that version was not as impactful for me. Not long after working on that material I noticed some deficiencies in my traditional repertoire, so I got into these type techniques from the “old school’ which I honestly found equal challenging to master as the previous material. First is Niño Ricardo, and the second is my reworking of the Manuel Morao technique:





Even though the above are antiquated stylistically in comparison, they present equal challenges in terms of synchopation and compas. I love working through an entire piece of guitar solo if it inspires me, of course, but I still feel a need as a teacher to re-emphasize the advantage of working out single falsetas to master level...no matter how “hard” or “easy” you think one might be. A solo piece should be tackled in the same manner, even if it means one’s own repertoire remains on the small side it is simply a better approach and more satisfying in the end.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 18 2021 15:44:49
 
Auda

 

Posts: 201
Joined: Sep. 28 2019
 

RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

I still feel a need as a teacher to re-emphasize the advantage of working out single falsetas to master level...no matter how “hard” or “easy” you think one might be.


It appears, for me, that when I play a piece, like most others, I want to play it at my best. Some days I just can not get it up to the level I have played it previously. A case in point, the picado segment about 3/4 the way through Aires de Triana. When practicing and when I am going well I have literally played this cleanly at top speed 30 times in a row. Then the next time I have trouble playing it the way I want even once. Granted, it can depend on the amount of time I have been playing in that period of time but to maintain that level, at least for me, is difficult. It seems as if I playing whack a mole with the different falsetas. It can be quite frustrating!

Cheers
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 18 2021 16:38:16
 
joevidetto

 

Posts: 91
Joined: Jun. 15 2013
 

RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to joevidetto

quote:

When practicing and when I am going well I have literally played this cleanly at top speed 30 times in a row. Then the next time I have trouble playing it the way I want even once. Granted, it can depend on the amount of time I have been playing in that period of time but to maintain that level


You are actually pretty lucky to be able to play it perfectly when you are "in your groove"...I think if you are not lucky or hard-headed and resilient enough to be a full-time or almost full-time musician, you are doomed to experience what you describe. I too have had periods where I can play several hours a day for weeks at a time - and the difference in my technical ability is HUGE....and then, life gets in the way.

When you go back to do it again - like you said, you wonder if that was you back then...granted you can get that back - but it takes another dedicated period of weeks to months at hours a day. MAYBE there are some people out there that are the exception to this - but I think very few, if any.

And there you so well describe the frustrating part - your BRAIN remembers very CLEARLY what your body and muscles could do - but your BODY has LOST the tone and dexterity due to lack of use....And over and over it goes.

i've just accepted that this is how my musical hobby (no longer an aspiration which I had hoped would generate at least some income) goes....playing slightly above average, far below the experts, with a few high points when my life has allowed many hours of practice per day for weeks to months.

I'm lucky enough to live in a country where food is plentiful, and I have a day job that allows a pretty comfortable life compared to most of the population...and I don't have to worry about breaking nails, pleasing the crowd, maintaining that technique, writing new songs, or being 'one of the best'....
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 19 2021 1:23:59
 
Scott

 

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Mar. 19 2021 15:25:41
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 19 2021 15:25:23
 
Scott

 

Posts: 14
Joined: Jul. 29 2010
 

RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to joevidetto

quote:

but the compas patterns and finding the starting/ending of those along with the start/end of some of the falsetas seem to throw me off in that one.


Forgive me if I'm about to suggest anything you're already doing, but if not, I'd highly recommend the following when learning any falseta. Instead of approaching a falseta in the context of an entire piece, focus on learning the falseta to the point that you can play it repeatedly with any number of compas in between. Identify however you best recognize when the falseta begins. Meaning, does it start on 12, 1, 10, somewhere else? If it begins on the upbeat of 10, I think of that as "starting" on 10 in terms of when to finish the preceeding compas. Knowing a few compas variations ending in different places will allow you to play in and out of any falseta. You will also notice common places to end before starting a falseta on a certain beat. A few simple examples (these are not rules): If the falseta begins on 12, the compas frequently ends on 10. If the falseta begins on 1, the compas usually ends accenting beat 11. If the compas begins before the 12 (i.e., 10), the compas can end on 6. Just to be clear, when I say end, I'm referring to the last accented beat within the context of the full cycle of 12.

The only Paco piece I've learned in it's entirety is Jerezana. I hadn't planned to learn the whole thing, rather I had learned most of the falsetas over a number of years so I figured I'd fill in the gaps and put it all together. I don't know how many weeks I put in bringing it up to speed, originally shooting for 230, but eventually creeping all the way to the recorded tempo, then some number of days getting a "good enough" take (still some rough bits and some flammed rasgueados). My roommate at the time is either a saint, loves bulerias, or it really wasn't THAT loud with my door closed. I don't think the input required to learn a full Paco piece (at my level at least) is worth the lasting effects. I had it a little over two years ago and while the muscle memory is still there, my brain still needs a kick to remember parts of it.

Not to distract you if you are/were learning it by ear but my transcription is linked in the video below.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 19 2021 15:46:35
 
rombsix

Posts: 7483
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to Scott

quote:

Not to distract you if you are/were learning it by ear but my transcription is linked in the video below.


Toma!

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http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 19 2021 22:39:37
 
joevidetto

 

Posts: 91
Joined: Jun. 15 2013
 

RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to joevidetto

Scott - your suggestions and guidelines about the beginning/end of each falseta are excellent - I am going to begin to be more aware of the start and ends.

Also - thank you so much for your transcription of Jerenzana.

Just out of curiosity - are you a full or part-time musician, and if and when you play out is it mostly original pieces, mix and match - or not flamenco material ? Your point about the work to learn, play, and maintain complete PDL pieces is spot-on for me, but what's the next best thing - I'm guessing to collect falsetas and learn them at a much deeper level.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 20 2021 13:37:56
 
Auda

 

Posts: 201
Joined: Sep. 28 2019
 

RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to joevidetto

quote:

I too have had periods where I can play several hours a day for weeks at a time - and the difference in my technical ability is HUGE....and then, life gets in the way.


Ricardo posted a video about Pepe Martinez in a different thread. If I recall correctly it appeared he would get up and start playing until he would go to where ever he was playing on "stage" that night and when it was over he would get together with other players and then play most of the night. That is a lot of playing.

Cheers
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 20 2021 14:21:43
 
Scott

 

Posts: 14
Joined: Jul. 29 2010
 

RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to joevidetto

You're welcome for the transcription. I hope it's helpful.

If your current interest is learning falsetas, I'd reemphasize at least momentarily shifting your focus to learning a few basic variations of compas, as it should make understanding falsetas easier.

Using Jerezana as an example:
Look at the cycle of 12 starting in measure 29. That would be a compas "ending" on 10 (the two eighth notes at beat 11 can be rest notes for this purpose). This is a safe choice for falsetas that start on beat 12.

The compas at beat 12 in measure 49 is an example that accents beat 11. Looping that cycle (accent on 11, rest 12, "starting" with the golpe on 1) will give the feel for playing into falsetas that begin on beat 1.

I don't recall any falsetas in Jerezana starting well before beat 12 (ignoring some lead-ins on the down and upbeat of 11). Either way, an easy option for those when you run into them is holding an A on beat 6 after Bb on beat 3.

I haven't played out in years. When I did it was always electric (not counting playing classical for at my sister's wedding) and never flamenco (rock, blues, metal, funk, etc.). Frankly, my flamenco knowledge is minimal and I'd have no business sitting in any chair intended for a someone performing flamenco.

The next best thing is ultimately whatever you're inspired to do. If that is Paco falsetas, once you've learned a few and can play them in and out of compas, guess what? You're basically playing a solo piece.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 20 2021 15:07:57
 
mrstwinkle

 

Posts: 412
Joined: May 14 2017
 

RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to joevidetto

Been taught a lot as teacher is a Paco purist.

I don't have the memory or skill to pull it off so tend to use the bits I like.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 21 2021 11:08:40
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 845
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to joevidetto

Entire pieces? No thanks. One day I'm gonna learn my 1001st falseta. That's what counts.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 13 2021 23:11:11
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