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I know that learning an entire PDL piece takes an enormous amount of work - and most flamencos don't do it that way - rather learning just the falsetas they like. And that makes sense.
As a "professional student" - someone who enjoys learning how the piece is played, it's harmonies, and often falls short of actually executing the piece in a way that could be played for others, I usually work through whole pieces. I know I should practice these pieces up to performance level - but I just don't seem to make the time to do that. I wonder if there are others like me out there.
Shortfalls aside - I was wondering if you try and learn entire PDL pieces, and if you'd like to - share which ones you've worked through in their entirety.
I am still on the early paco bulerias pieces - working through El Tempul and Cepa. I've learned a falseta or 2 from Jerenzana - but the compas patterns and finding the starting/ending of those along with the start/end of some of the falsetas seem to throw me off in that one.
What is the most recent PDL piece you've learned in it's entirety ? Have you recorded or videod it ? Please share : )
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to joevidetto)
Guajiras Tempul Panaderos Mantilla de Feria Fiesta en Moguer Punta del Faro Entre dos Aguas Plaza Alta (long long long time ago) Friday Night in Sanfrancisco (all) Chanela Passion Grace and Fire (All) La Barrosa (long long time ago as well) Zyryab Cancion de Amor Letter from India Cardeosa
I have performed all that stuff in recent years except for plaza Alta and La barrosa, but bulerias I usually do a historical mixture from old to new material. Sadly I have not had much practice time on those during pandemic.
RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to Ricardo)
That's quite impressive - I know that you are one of the top players here in the Foro. It will be interesting to see who else has done more than 4 or 5.
I should have phrased this as "concert pieces" and not limited it to PDL.
RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to joevidetto)
The only complete piece that I ever learnt and played is Entre dos Aguas, so long ago that now I remember only a few notes of the first falseta.
I never learnt any other piece in entirety, but I've done a few almost entire ones from various players (with only one or two falsetas missing): Casilda (but that was really bad playing) Bronce Gitano (Sabicas) Punta y Tacon (Sabicas) Percusion Flamenca (Paco) Callejon del Muro (Paco) La Ardilla (Tomatito) La Cartuja (Gerardo Nuñez) Paso Doble (Gerardo) Morente (Vicente Amigo) Barrio la Viña (Paco, only first half) Mix of Camaron and Mi Niño Curro
Sadly I haven't recorded anything except a short falseta of Percusion Flamenca Paco's rondeña while I practiced it. I had a video of me playing Casilda but I want to forget about it :) Needless to say, these are all concert pieces but my playing was not :)
RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to joevidetto)
Guajiras Percussion Barrosa Canta el Gallo Reflejo de Luna things he played but didn't compose: Impetu Panaderos Mantilla de Feria
Those are the ones I can mostly play from memory. (Not saying I'm playing them well though. ^^) The rest is bits and pieces, a falseta here and there. For instance the A minor bit at the end of La Canada. I learned that but never the full piece. And then there are other pieces that I worked through but didn't stick with long enough to commit them to memory. Like Casilda or Almoraima. I could probably get them back with some work but a lot of it I just forgot. I don't have any pieces I've studied recently. I've been thinking about giving Fuente y Caudal another go after listening to Luciano's interpretation of it, but that'll have to wait until I have more time. At some point in the future I'd like to try my hand at Rio de la Miel.
Sabicas and Esteban de Sanlucar are probably the bulk of the pieces I can play from memory. The worst one for me is Vicente Amigo. I studied a lot of his pieces, and I don't remember a single one...
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RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to joevidetto)
I guess I approach it differently. I have to learn the entire piece. When I get into one it is, mostly, at the exclusion of all others. I have been giving Flamenco a go for just over 1.5 years and have no real interest at this time to be a "real" Flamenco player as what it appears to be defined on the forum as I am more interested in the solo pieces.
A partial list of pieces I have learned:
Guajiras Almoraima Reflejo de Luna Noches de Arabia Zambra Granadina Arabian Dance (anon) Aires de Triana Bulerias (Sabicas as played by Grisha) Zapateado en Re Aires de Puerto Real Damascos Fantasia Arabe
On most all of them I can play the sections/passages up to speed and cleanly though most of the time I am not consistent to string them all together.
I have not recorded any of them but have been thinking about recording a section of Malagueña de Lecuona to solicit feedback.
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to joevidetto)
Many years back, I noticed that a lot of my favorite falsetas were not part of guitar solos but very impactful as interludes for cante. For example this for Duquende samaruco album:
These two were in the same key so made a nice pair, Diego del Morao was the new hot player and this was for Niña Pastori from cadiz who had radio hits...and the amazing buleria extremeña “por fia” battle between Potito and Guadiana “en casa de Herrero” was introduced by Tomatito’s falseta:
It was hard work getting those correct, but I really feel this material, for my tastes, constitute the high point in the evolution of flamenco guitar. It is telling they were never part of “guitar solo pieces”. I guess d. Morao finally recorded that one after 10 years of playing it, but that version was not as impactful for me. Not long after working on that material I noticed some deficiencies in my traditional repertoire, so I got into these type techniques from the “old school’ which I honestly found equal challenging to master as the previous material. First is Niño Ricardo, and the second is my reworking of the Manuel Morao technique:
Even though the above are antiquated stylistically in comparison, they present equal challenges in terms of synchopation and compas. I love working through an entire piece of guitar solo if it inspires me, of course, but I still feel a need as a teacher to re-emphasize the advantage of working out single falsetas to master level...no matter how “hard” or “easy” you think one might be. A solo piece should be tackled in the same manner, even if it means one’s own repertoire remains on the small side it is simply a better approach and more satisfying in the end.
RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
I still feel a need as a teacher to re-emphasize the advantage of working out single falsetas to master level...no matter how “hard” or “easy” you think one might be.
It appears, for me, that when I play a piece, like most others, I want to play it at my best. Some days I just can not get it up to the level I have played it previously. A case in point, the picado segment about 3/4 the way through Aires de Triana. When practicing and when I am going well I have literally played this cleanly at top speed 30 times in a row. Then the next time I have trouble playing it the way I want even once. Granted, it can depend on the amount of time I have been playing in that period of time but to maintain that level, at least for me, is difficult. It seems as if I playing whack a mole with the different falsetas. It can be quite frustrating!
RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to joevidetto)
quote:
When practicing and when I am going well I have literally played this cleanly at top speed 30 times in a row. Then the next time I have trouble playing it the way I want even once. Granted, it can depend on the amount of time I have been playing in that period of time but to maintain that level
You are actually pretty lucky to be able to play it perfectly when you are "in your groove"...I think if you are not lucky or hard-headed and resilient enough to be a full-time or almost full-time musician, you are doomed to experience what you describe. I too have had periods where I can play several hours a day for weeks at a time - and the difference in my technical ability is HUGE....and then, life gets in the way.
When you go back to do it again - like you said, you wonder if that was you back then...granted you can get that back - but it takes another dedicated period of weeks to months at hours a day. MAYBE there are some people out there that are the exception to this - but I think very few, if any.
And there you so well describe the frustrating part - your BRAIN remembers very CLEARLY what your body and muscles could do - but your BODY has LOST the tone and dexterity due to lack of use....And over and over it goes.
i've just accepted that this is how my musical hobby (no longer an aspiration which I had hoped would generate at least some income) goes....playing slightly above average, far below the experts, with a few high points when my life has allowed many hours of practice per day for weeks to months.
I'm lucky enough to live in a country where food is plentiful, and I have a day job that allows a pretty comfortable life compared to most of the population...and I don't have to worry about breaking nails, pleasing the crowd, maintaining that technique, writing new songs, or being 'one of the best'....
RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to joevidetto)
quote:
but the compas patterns and finding the starting/ending of those along with the start/end of some of the falsetas seem to throw me off in that one.
Forgive me if I'm about to suggest anything you're already doing, but if not, I'd highly recommend the following when learning any falseta. Instead of approaching a falseta in the context of an entire piece, focus on learning the falseta to the point that you can play it repeatedly with any number of compas in between. Identify however you best recognize when the falseta begins. Meaning, does it start on 12, 1, 10, somewhere else? If it begins on the upbeat of 10, I think of that as "starting" on 10 in terms of when to finish the preceeding compas. Knowing a few compas variations ending in different places will allow you to play in and out of any falseta. You will also notice common places to end before starting a falseta on a certain beat. A few simple examples (these are not rules): If the falseta begins on 12, the compas frequently ends on 10. If the falseta begins on 1, the compas usually ends accenting beat 11. If the compas begins before the 12 (i.e., 10), the compas can end on 6. Just to be clear, when I say end, I'm referring to the last accented beat within the context of the full cycle of 12.
The only Paco piece I've learned in it's entirety is Jerezana. I hadn't planned to learn the whole thing, rather I had learned most of the falsetas over a number of years so I figured I'd fill in the gaps and put it all together. I don't know how many weeks I put in bringing it up to speed, originally shooting for 230, but eventually creeping all the way to the recorded tempo, then some number of days getting a "good enough" take (still some rough bits and some flammed rasgueados). My roommate at the time is either a saint, loves bulerias, or it really wasn't THAT loud with my door closed. I don't think the input required to learn a full Paco piece (at my level at least) is worth the lasting effects. I had it a little over two years ago and while the muscle memory is still there, my brain still needs a kick to remember parts of it.
Not to distract you if you are/were learning it by ear but my transcription is linked in the video below.
RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to joevidetto)
Scott - your suggestions and guidelines about the beginning/end of each falseta are excellent - I am going to begin to be more aware of the start and ends.
Also - thank you so much for your transcription of Jerenzana.
Just out of curiosity - are you a full or part-time musician, and if and when you play out is it mostly original pieces, mix and match - or not flamenco material ? Your point about the work to learn, play, and maintain complete PDL pieces is spot-on for me, but what's the next best thing - I'm guessing to collect falsetas and learn them at a much deeper level.
RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to joevidetto)
quote:
I too have had periods where I can play several hours a day for weeks at a time - and the difference in my technical ability is HUGE....and then, life gets in the way.
Ricardo posted a video about Pepe Martinez in a different thread. If I recall correctly it appeared he would get up and start playing until he would go to where ever he was playing on "stage" that night and when it was over he would get together with other players and then play most of the night. That is a lot of playing.
RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to joevidetto)
You're welcome for the transcription. I hope it's helpful.
If your current interest is learning falsetas, I'd reemphasize at least momentarily shifting your focus to learning a few basic variations of compas, as it should make understanding falsetas easier.
Using Jerezana as an example: Look at the cycle of 12 starting in measure 29. That would be a compas "ending" on 10 (the two eighth notes at beat 11 can be rest notes for this purpose). This is a safe choice for falsetas that start on beat 12.
The compas at beat 12 in measure 49 is an example that accents beat 11. Looping that cycle (accent on 11, rest 12, "starting" with the golpe on 1) will give the feel for playing into falsetas that begin on beat 1.
I don't recall any falsetas in Jerezana starting well before beat 12 (ignoring some lead-ins on the down and upbeat of 11). Either way, an easy option for those when you run into them is holding an A on beat 6 after Bb on beat 3.
I haven't played out in years. When I did it was always electric (not counting playing classical for at my sister's wedding) and never flamenco (rock, blues, metal, funk, etc.). Frankly, my flamenco knowledge is minimal and I'd have no business sitting in any chair intended for a someone performing flamenco.
The next best thing is ultimately whatever you're inspired to do. If that is Paco falsetas, once you've learned a few and can play them in and out of compas, guess what? You're basically playing a solo piece.
Posts: 137
Joined: Sep. 4 2010
From: New York area
RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to joevidetto)
I learn entire pieces. Partly b/c you can then play the whole thing with its entire logic. Secondly, being a hobbyist I almost never have opportunity to accompany, hence resorting to what sounds good if you play solo. Here is my list: Cepa Almoraima Guajira Gloria al Nino Ricardo Montino Barrosa Aires Fuente Panaderos Malaguena de Lecuona Punta Umbria
RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to joevidetto)
quote:
I learn entire pieces. Partly b/c you can then play the whole thing with its entire logic. Secondly, being a hobbyist
From my observations, it seems that few people are yet playing full versions of PDL's more advanced bulerias pieces (let's say Solo Quiero Caminar and after) I'm sure the complexity and amount of work involved accounts for much of that. And yet these pieces are many decades old !!! The flamenco world had surely had time to digest them.
If you have been able to accomplish this - please share what piece you learned, how difficult you found learning it compared to others, and how you went about learning it.
Short of that - please share a youtube video of somebody doing justice to the piece (besides Grisha - he's just a phenom that seems capable of playing anything he wants : )
Posts: 137
Joined: Sep. 4 2010
From: New York area
RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to joevidetto)
quote:
ORIGINAL: joevidetto
quote:
I learn entire pieces. Partly b/c you can then play the whole thing with its entire logic. Secondly, being a hobbyist
From my observations, it seems that few people are yet playing full versions of PDL's more advanced bulerias pieces (let's say Solo Quiero Caminar and after) I'm sure the complexity and amount of work involved accounts for much of that. And yet these pieces are many decades old !!! The flamenco world had surely had time to digest them.
If you have been able to accomplish this - please share what piece you learned, how difficult you found learning it compared to others, and how you went about learning it.
Short of that - please share a youtube video of somebody doing justice to the piece (besides Grisha - he's just a phenom that seems capable of playing anything he wants : )
Well since you are asking, here is my attempt at Almoraima from couple of years back. Learned this by watching Grisha's video. Not claiming it is perfect or even a good attempt, just a record of my own progress at the time.
I find the most challenging to play the whole thing with minimal mistakes, I dunno, being a hobbyist and lack of performance practice, I find my concentration usually lacking. So really to get to the point that I could play the whole thing without screwing it up takes a lot of practice and shape before I can record anything semi-decently.
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to joevidetto)
quote:
Why bother ? - lol
When Paco was young he played Impetu note for note. Also he recorded Panaderos and Nino Ricardo’s Alegrias and Montoya’s Rondeña. But what you are asking specifically Paco actually NEVER DID IT HIMSELF!!! (Except Comadres was a playback TVE but it had to be edited cuz they changed a half compas lol).
If we consider Paco the teacher that we follow and learn from, well, he is teaching us something different by demonstration. The advanced players get it and so you will NOT be finding what you are after because it is considered “wrong”. I learned and created a 2nd guitar part for Jucal and when I performed it with Gerardo in front of class he deliberately changed it from the recorded structure. Basically it is driven into our heads DON’T FREAKIN DO THAT!!!! Sorry man.
Posts: 137
Joined: Sep. 4 2010
From: New York area
RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
When Paco was young he played Impetu note for note. Also he recorded Panaderos and Nino Ricardo’s Alegrias and Montoya’s Rondeña. But what you are asking specifically Paco actually NEVER DID IT HIMSELF!!!
I think there is a reason why Paco played full pieces Impetu, Panaderos, etc. One is those already became classic by the time he played them. Also they were not written by him so altering anything would be considered by some a disrespect to the originals.
I think now Paco's stuff is essentially classics for us. Nothing wrong reciting those records in their full intact form (whoever the heck can do that). Grisha built his career on precisely that. But opinions vary and I heard a lot of "robot" referrals to his recitals, something I deeply disagree with. Learning falsetas is good when you accompany a lot as nobody expects you to put entire piece between the letras :)) Hobbyists are doomed to become soloists and the approach here would be similar to how we approach classical music - learn the whole thing then play to whoever wants to listen to it :)
RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to zendalex)
quote:
I think there is a reason why Paco played full pieces Impetu, Panaderos, etc. One is those already became classic by the time he played them. Also they were not written by him so altering anything would be considered by some a disrespect to the originals.
But he did alter them - Ímpetu at least, which is one I am very familiar with. You can compare Mario Escudero's playing of his composition to the way Paco de Lucia plays it: there are a bunch of small(?) differences, so it is not a note for note rendition. Yet does not seem disrespectful.
Posts: 137
Joined: Sep. 4 2010
From: New York area
RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to kitarist)
quote:
But he did alter them - Ímpetu at least, which is one I am very familiar with.
That may be, l guess the point I am making is there is a difference when performing pieces established as classics and performing music of your own. Coming back to original post how you learn depends on the purpose, and I would imagine it all depends on whether you accompany or play mostly solo.
Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to joevidetto)
If you guys want to see some folks playing well, join the facebook group ** GUITARRISTAS FLAMENCOS **
Most of the posts are clips of guys playing. Some guys are playing Paco stuff, and of course lots of others playing other material, for the most part, pretty well. Some pros post, and plenty of unknown, but good players. One of my favorites is Ernesto de Torrero. The guy is so tasty, and he writes great falsetas. He also does stuff like putting movie themes into bulerias. He did the Harry Potter one, and Jk heard it and commented that she was in awe.
Posts: 137
Joined: Sep. 4 2010
From: New York area
RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to Mark2)
I follow that group for some time. A lot of activity there and easy to follow as fb notifies. I just wish this foro becomes more active on fb. B/c who the heck uses PCs these days. Pretty much why I dont go here that often 😕
RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to zendalex)
quote:
I follow that group for some time. A lot of activity there and easy to follow as fb notifies. I just wish this foro becomes more active on fb. B/c who the heck uses PCs these days. Pretty much why I dont go here that often 😕
I wish the opposite! The layout of Facebook is such that it is more difficult to track a topic compared to the forum.
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