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Moroccan "Chaabi" rhythm with 2 bars of 6/8 but all *sorts* of messed-up like...   You are logged in as Guest
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aaron peacock

Posts: 136
Joined: Apr. 26 2020
From: Portugal

Moroccan "Chaabi" rhythm w... 



I suspect some North-African influences on-topic...

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List of Arts Where Experimentation is Dangerous:
1) Sword-Combat
2) Aerial Acrobatics
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 9 2021 19:00:32
 
chester

Posts: 830
Joined: Oct. 29 2010
 

RE: Moroccan "Chaabi" rhyt... (in reply to aaron peacock

Cool video. Thanks for sharing.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 10 2021 4:36:59
 
ernandez R

Posts: 490
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Moroccan "Chaabi" rhyt... (in reply to aaron peacock

I too enjoyed the video but no way was I keeping up.
Not saying I hadn’t encountered this rhythm before though...

HR

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I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 10 2021 7:26:43
 
aaron peacock

Posts: 136
Joined: Apr. 26 2020
From: Portugal

RE: Moroccan "Chaabi" rhyt... (in reply to ernandez R

quote:

I too enjoyed the video but no way was I keeping up.
Not saying I hadn’t encountered this rhythm before though...

HR

I agree. It's mindbending to try to count it.
I guess I find that it's easier to just play such rhythms than try to count them. This Yogev Gabey drummer person, however, is a monstrously good abstract player.

But yeah, Amizigh rhythms are infectious. I wish we could legally upload tunes here directly, I've some folders with unnamed mp3's that a friend passed me after he moved back here from Morocco, all full of this rhythm but ostensibly different styles from different folks/tribes.
A lot of "Call and Response" vocals. Moroccan Gospel lol...(possible Sub-Saharan influences via the Tuaregs?)

I wish to say 2 things to you sir, however:

1) Those moose steaks! I cannot forget that photo. One day I must taste a proper moose steak.

2) Nice pegs!
(i've moved houses, stashed my retirement wood, and will start my first guitar any decade now, lol...)

_____________________________

List of Arts Where Experimentation is Dangerous:
1) Sword-Combat
2) Aerial Acrobatics
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 10 2021 8:29:25
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12996
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Moroccan "Chaabi" rhyt... (in reply to aaron peacock

Pretty easy one but maybe I was lucky to learn this groove from nuñez early on. He hits the down beat but it is easy to get off soon after cuz it’s the similar pattern to the Africa one (measure 2 mainly as measure 1 you could accent 2 as well, so the difference is about two bar phrase vs a single bar). The bass note you keep hearing goes 4 6, but cajon accents 2 and 5.... many melodies are starting on 2 and ending on 6, leading the down beat. The remate (1:00) is the cool spot, he accents 2 5 2 with cajon (3 hits) then bass notes on 456 hold... 4! So it’s like tangos ... hence tanguillo.

I recommend approaching the African groove the same way like tangos going 1 &ah 2 &, 3 &ah 4 &, etc...then shifting the division of that to triplet feel. To get the two bar phrase think one bar rumba, the next tangos. Then apply the following.
1&ah2&...1&ah2&... and use foot and metronome together on the numbers but you only accent the other stuff. Heel work in triplets often accent the 2nd note as contra accent .... unlike the jazz swing that we are more used to accenting the 3rd. That results in accompaniment wanting to drag tempo much to the dancers disdain. A bit of tanguillo practice solves the issue.



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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 11 2021 14:31:09
 
aaron peacock

Posts: 136
Joined: Apr. 26 2020
From: Portugal

RE: Moroccan "Chaabi" rhyt... (in reply to aaron peacock

I just always put the 1 in the wrong place :D but this rhythm rolls great

I found seguiriyas harder with this odd 5-count story... 2-2-3-3-2 wtf it's like a wagon wheel with a chip taken out of it, or a film editor who wants to go to lunch early, actually, I'll just put seguiriyas out there as the most mind-bending palo i encountered.

<crazy talk>
I'll even propose it (when por medio) as the mother palo, in vez of soléa, as it's the most "out-there" or is there one more exemplary of the idiomatic flamenco forms? am I nuts? no evidence of course, speculation and circumstantial congruence and my grandmotherly intuition.
plus, por medio is older than por arriba, as the Mi/E string was added later
</crazy talk>


That's a very cool sounding track with Mr. Nuñez there.
It really captures a certain fusion vibe from that late 70's plus somehow some latin flavor (the extra jiggy rhythmic fun? that bass player! not to mention excellent cajón)

_____________________________

List of Arts Where Experimentation is Dangerous:
1) Sword-Combat
2) Aerial Acrobatics
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 11 2021 23:27:17
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12996
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Moroccan "Chaabi" rhyt... (in reply to aaron peacock

quote:

ORIGINAL: aaron peacock

I just always put the 1 in the wrong place :D but this rhythm rolls great

I found seguiriyas harder with this odd 5-count story... 2-2-3-3-2 wtf it's like a wagon wheel with a chip taken out of it, or a film editor who wants to go to lunch early, actually, I'll just put seguiriyas out there as the most mind-bending palo i encountered.

<crazy talk>
I'll even propose it (when por medio) as the mother palo, in vez of soléa, as it's the most "out-there" or is there one more exemplary of the idiomatic flamenco forms? am I nuts? no evidence of course, speculation and circumstantial congruence and my grandmotherly intuition.
plus, por medio is older than por arriba, as the Mi/E string was added later
</crazy talk>


That's a very cool sounding track with Mr. Nuñez there.
It really captures a certain fusion vibe from that late 70's plus somehow some latin flavor (the extra jiggy rhythmic fun? that bass player! not to mention excellent cajón)


Siguiriyas used to be faster in the “old days”. If you watch Piriñaca do palmas for her singing, she does a fast reversed Chaabi accent (not really as there is no 6/8 base underneath, but I mean the drum accent pattern) so like 6/8 then 3/4 (the chaabi is 3/4-6/8). I was gonna mention this actually when I said rumba alternates with tangos...rumba has 3 accents against the 6/8, and at full tempo, the chaabi thing sounds like the fast siguiriyas she does, minus your foot tap.

Anyway, she sings the melody starting on “1” of the 6/8 bar. That tells me that at some point in history, the guitar imposed a new concept of compas as it slowed down. You are correct that it seems “odd” as the symmetry seen above is lost in favor of 7+5 instead of 6+6.

7/8=Bb chord 2+2+3....
5/8=A chord 3+2...

The above phrase is adhered to by guitar players historically, regardless of tempo. There is no symmetry to break so it holds, solid as a rock through time. Singers sing on or around “1” of the 7/8 phrase as the down beat.

Interesting to note, Rafael Marin (1902 method book) viewed the 6/8 phrase as rumba, then an extra two beats are added (8+4)...probably for same reason as Piriñaca, that was how the pattern might have originated. However, as a pro player I know that math is wrong, it is 7+5 for sure, from early 1900’s till present. But...

The modern interpreters that brought back the fast tempo version (see Potito with Diego del morao), manage to create an effect of both at the same time....by emphasizing or changing the harmony to Bb on the “1” of the 6/8, and keeping the A tonic from the 456 part of the 6/8 ALL the way through the 3/4 bar. That way the old “1” that is honestly beat 2 of the 3/4 bar, is retained as well. Pretty cool trick.

About “mother form”... I would want to agree that Siguiriyas seems to hold on to some more ancient flavors and certainly the Arabic influence...it sounds less harmonic and more drone/modal than Solea or Fandango family members. To hear the proper effect I refer to, listen el Pele and Vicente Amigo version on “Canto”. Also the tona/martinete retains that quality since we never heard guitar with it. However, there are two problems.

1. The idea of “mother” form, is that she inspired or evolved into OTHER forms and variants. In that sense, even Fandangos is a better “mother” since Siguiriyas has only a limited amount of styles and variations. As often as I go through Norman’s audio of the Soler categorization of the siguiriyas styles, I only hear two main Phrygian melodies that are delivered in personal ways, the one that goes to C major, the one that goes up to D minor, and the cabales. So 5 main melodies. Fandangos plus malgueña and levante has like hundreds. Solea plus her children Buleria por solea, buleria, tientos tangos, they make for close to hundred I am sure.

2. Talking about harmony, the idea of the “cambio” in the letra, that being the relative major harmony that sets up the conclusion, used by choice or not by the guitarist in siguiriyas for one of the phrygian melodic styles, almost certainly derives from Solea. The fact it is not always used means it is not necessary, and the fact it DOES get used sometimes shows the influence of Solea on the form overall. That just adds weight to the importance of Solea as the “mother” form in general IMO. When applied to dance, the baile structures tend to derive from the typical Solea model as well. (Llamada, slow long letras first, faster “Macho” ones to conclude).

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 12 2021 15:16:46
 
aaron peacock

Posts: 136
Joined: Apr. 26 2020
From: Portugal

RE: Moroccan "Chaabi" rhyt... (in reply to Ricardo

this, what you wrote, has a lot of content to process.. thank you.
point #2, particularly interesting. (the relative major pivot) and yes, with dance it makes sense.
so, Seguiriyas is lonely. is it a funeral rite, perhaps? disconnected from the fiesta etc.

_____________________________

List of Arts Where Experimentation is Dangerous:
1) Sword-Combat
2) Aerial Acrobatics
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 13 2021 23:06:34
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