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Which rosewood is this?   You are logged in as Guest
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gerundino63

Posts: 1569
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

Which rosewood is this? 

Hi All,

This guitar is for sale in my country now.
Is this Dalbergian Nigra?

I ask this to avoid CITES problems.

https://www.flamenco-guitar.net/museum/bellido-jose-manuel-jesus/jose-lopez-bellido-2000-guitar-3

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 8 2021 21:27:42
 
RobF

Posts: 947
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Which rosewood is this? (in reply to gerundino63

Looks Brazilian. Doesn’t matter. Buy it.

Seriously, it looks like it’s a really nice guitar. If you’re staying inside the EU you shouldn’t have any problems.

P.S. being North American, I’m probably the wrong guy to advise on how the EU is w.r.t. Brazilian, but I was under the impression that as long as you keep it inside the EU you’re OK for travel. Not sure about selling across countries but the sales site (or other EU members here) should be able to answer all those questions. Regardless, if the price is reasonable you should consider buying it, IMO.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 8 2021 21:47:32
 
gerundino63

Posts: 1569
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Which rosewood is this? (in reply to RobF

Thanks for the reply.
Well, even within my own country it is not legal to sell without papers. (Also not within the eu borders).
Dalbergian Negra is the big exeption.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 8 2021 22:46:08
 
RobF

Posts: 947
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Which rosewood is this? (in reply to gerundino63

If that’s the case, and if the seller can’t provide you with what you need, then you probably should avoid this one.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 8 2021 23:02:46
 
Echi

 

Posts: 826
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Which rosewood is this? (in reply to gerundino63

I’m a fan of Jose’ Lopez Bellido. If I was in you I’d buy it.
It’s legal in Eu the trade of second hand guitars with Brazilian rosewood: your country shouldn’t be an exception after the CITES authority clarified the point.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 9 2021 16:10:49
 
gerundino63

Posts: 1569
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Which rosewood is this? (in reply to Echi

@Echi,
This is from the Dutch government.

Dalbergia nigra
Dalbergia nigra is strictly protected and is listed in Appendix A and Appendix I. You need a permit for import and export. You may not import wood, products or objects made from Dalbergia nigra for commercial use. By commercial use, we mean that you give it away, exchange it, rent or sell it. It doesn't matter if you get anything in return. So you can only import it into the European Union (EU) if you keep it yourself.

Do you transport or sell / sell Dalbergia nigra within the EU? Then you need an EU certificate. And you must be able to prove that you have legally bought or received the object or product. More information about the EU certificate can be found on the page CITES species within the European Union. Would you like to know more about trade outside the EU? Then view the page CITES species outside the European Union.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 10 2021 8:50:58
 
Echi

 

Posts: 826
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Which rosewood is this? (in reply to gerundino63

Well, things can be seen a little more widely.
It's true dalbergia nigra is listed in Appendix A and Appendix I of the CITES and therefore you need a permit, which is basically a statement that the Brazilian rosewood used for your guitar was bought before the cites rules were set in place. In this you are right.

The EU Regulation 2019/2117 set specific exceptions to "finished musical instruments", "finished musical instrument parts" and "finished musical instrument accessories" if they are built from CITES II affected timbers of the genus Dalbergia though.
You may take a look here:
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A52019PC0146
And here:
https://ec.europa.eu/transparency/regexpert/index.cfm?do=groupDetail.groupDetailDoc&id=33603&no=51

Next aspect is that you cannot really be sure that in this guitar there is dalbergia nigra:
The very fact that you are asking here, means the seller doesn't know for sure and the label doesn't strictly report it as "palosanto rio".
I for one can say it looks like a Brazilian and the smell may offer an evidence more, but otherwise it could be a different kind of dalbergia or even a Pauferro set...
Many shops just say it's a RSA rosewood without investigating and running in problems.

Given these circumstances and the Cites exceptions, it's unlikely anyone will check what kind of dalbergia has been used in a 20 years old finished instrument.

I for one wouldn't buy a new guitar with Brazilian rosewood back and sides or any species endangering the environment, but I see no reason to avoid old guitars made with wood in stock for many years. This is just me obviously.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 10 2021 18:55:19
 
gerundino63

Posts: 1569
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Which rosewood is this? (in reply to Echi

Thanks for your extended answer and the links.
I will give it all some thoughts.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 10 2021 19:49:15
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3012
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Which rosewood is this? (in reply to Echi

Ten years ago I bought a set of rosewood dining room furniture, made in Denmark in the 1950s, from a dealer in Vancouver, Canada. Before I bought it I questioned him about importing it into the USA. He said that when they had a truckload to ship they loaded up their truck, took the stuff to Bremerton, Washington, USA and shipped it from there.

"What about U.S. Customs?" I asked.

The dealer said U.S. Customs had impounded one shipment, asserting that it contained Dabergia Nigra. The dealer hired an expert from a Canadian university, who challenged Customs to prove that it was Dalbergia Nigra. After a few months of back and forth, Customs admitted they were unable to prove it was.

The dealer said they had no further trouble with U.S. Customs.

Of course it would be a serious inconvenience for a guitar you bought to be impounded by the Dutch government or E.U. authorities, and they might be more determined to defend their actions than U.S. Customs was.

I was aware of the exception for musical instruments cited by Echi, but did not take the time to look up the source again.

I have traveled to Europe and back to the USA with a Brazilian rosewood guitar in recent years with no problem at either end. Back in the USA I have found a notice in the case that it had been opened and inspected by the Transportation Security Administration. They are not the Customs Service, but the TSA works closely with them to interdict smuggling.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 10 2021 19:49:44
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 845
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Which rosewood is this? (in reply to gerundino63

How much are they asking for this guitar? The description says string height at the 12th fret 2.8mm. But there's no information about the string height at the bridge. To me this is really a red flag.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 11 2021 0:47:55
 
kitarist

Posts: 1177
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Which rosewood is this? (in reply to devilhand

quote:

But there's no information about the string height at the bridge. To me this is really a red flag.


Yeah, listen to satan's paw - he got swindled recently by an unscrupulous air guitar dealer. Shoulda checked that string height at the bridge before buying!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 11 2021 1:11:17
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3306
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Which rosewood is this? (in reply to devilhand

quote:

But there's no information about the string height at the bridge. To me this is really a red flag.


lack of information is not information of lack...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 11 2021 19:56:05
 
gerundino63

Posts: 1569
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Which rosewood is this? (in reply to devilhand

I see no red flaggs here. If the 12 fret is +/- 3mm. And the brake angle is still ok, the buzzing is minor, the string hight at the bridge is mostly also ok.
The asking price is not important, at the end it is sold at the selling price.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 11 2021 20:29:31
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12668
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Which rosewood is this? (in reply to devilhand

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

How much are they asking for this guitar? The description says string height at the 12th fret 2.8mm. But there's no information about the string height at the bridge. To me this is really a red flag.


The info is there in the photos if you understand what to look for. However, to discern properly you have to have owned a flamenco guitar or two.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 12 2021 13:50:42
 
Echi

 

Posts: 826
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Which rosewood is this? (in reply to gerundino63

The beads may offer an evidence but they may be there also for other reasons: in my experience the guitars of Jose’ Lopez Bellido may own a certain softness (which I like) and maybe the owner tried to improve the strings break angle. Bridge holes can be a little worn also, otherwise the guy just lowered the bone too much. God idea to ask.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 12 2021 14:23:50
 
RobF

Posts: 947
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Which rosewood is this? (in reply to gerundino63

I think the next step would be for you to visit the shop and personally examine the guitar, if possible, as clearly you are quite interested in it. They may be able to address your misgivings about the rosewood or, for that matter, the guitar itself may speak to that, as if you don’t like the feel or sound it won’t matter. And, if you do like it, the detail concerns, such as break angle and action, can likely all be addressed, as well.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 12 2021 14:49:20
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