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Sharing "implied" chord charts   You are logged in as Guest
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joevidetto

 

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Joined: Jun. 15 2013
 

Sharing "implied" chord charts 

Not being a music major, and not having a 'natural' ear for it, harmony has always been the most challenging aspect of any music I've tried to learn by ear. In my earlier days rock and pop days, I could often come close to the lead parts of songs, but the embedded chords I could never quite find.

The same has been true for my study of flamenco. When I learn a falseta, I feel I haven't learned much of anything if I can play it, but don't understand the implied chords and cannot compose something similar. Sure you can and should use your fingers and ear - but knowledge of harmony can sure facilitate the process.

When you know the implied chords, it's much easier to change it around to something similar you can be proud of, that still holds the feel of the original. I've always been annoyed that these aren't often included in flamenco transcriptions - even when there is a second guitar !!!

Has anybody else work out the implied chords to pieces of the flamenco masters, and would be willing to share them on this post ?

I think this would make for a great learning experience and discussion for all who participate.

Ricardo recently uploaded a nice chart for a modern PDL Rondena - perhaps you can add it here, Ricardo, and this could become a 'living' post.

Also - if this has been done already, please share the threads with me.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2021 14:59:37
 
Sr. Martins

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RE: Sharing "implied" chor... (in reply to joevidetto

Ear training is the solution for that.

Theory and analysis without a developed ear end up being a math exercise. A developed ear without some sort of theory behind it is like having a 5000 page encyclopedia without an index.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2021 15:20:27
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Sharing "implied" chor... (in reply to joevidetto

Cañizares does this in the official Fuente y Caudal Book. I think I did one on the Compadres score, I will chart it out on a sheet later. Here is the Camaron Rondeña again:



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Attachment (1)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2021 15:23:28
 
Brendan

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RE: Sharing "implied" chor... (in reply to joevidetto

This is what Claude Worms promises here: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=vZ2kyrRZJScC&hl

Though as we saw in another thread, his inferences are not infallible. Even so, I find this book very useful.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2021 19:35:18
 
mark indigo

 

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RE: Sharing "implied" chor... (in reply to joevidetto

quote:

the embedded chords I could never quite find.

quote:

don't understand the implied chords


I'm not a music major either, I don't understand these terms, what do "embedded chords" and "implied chords" mean?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2021 21:37:24
 
Mark2

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RE: Sharing "implied" chor... (in reply to mark indigo

It's extracting the chords from a melodic line. If you play an D# note over an A major 7th chord, you are playing the #11 of the chord thus "implying" an Amaj7 #11 chord.

I think what Joe is getting at is that when he's able to deduce the implied or underlying chords of a melodic line or falseta, it makes it easier to create similar variations.

Jazz horn players, for example, can outline the chords of a standard without actually playing the chords.





quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

the embedded chords I could never quite find.

quote:

don't understand the implied chords


I'm not a music major either, I don't understand these terms, what do "embedded chords" and "implied chords" mean?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2021 23:30:44
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Sharing "implied" chor... (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

the embedded chords I could never quite find.

quote:

don't understand the implied chords


I'm not a music major either, I don't understand these terms, what do "embedded chords" and "implied chords" mean?


As you can see my chart above, it is not the Rondeña tuning nor the falsetas, but it is the implied chords in standard tuning capo 2 of what the falsetas are doing. If you wanted to create a duet with paco you start with this chord chart as a basis. Some falsetas use actual chords but many don’t, so it is useful to visualize the harmonic structure of falsetas. I don’t necessarily think it will help someone one learn them rather than diving in note for note.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2021 20:53:59
 
mark indigo

 

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RE: Sharing "implied" chor... (in reply to Ricardo

ok, thnx (to both)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 15 2021 20:55:01
 
El Burdo

 

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RE: Sharing "implied" chor... (in reply to Mark2

quote:

Jazz horn players, for example, can outline the chords of a standard without actually playing the chords.


Without wishing to turn this into another jazz harmony debate, how?

It's like saying 'I'll draw an outline of this country without reference to the country'.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 16 2021 9:55:53
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 16 2021 11:10:18
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Sharing "implied" chor... (in reply to El Burdo

quote:

Without wishing to turn this into another jazz harmony debate, how?


They are called “arpeggios”...not to be confused with the right hand technique of guitarists called “arpegios”. To be clear, a horn player can play with only a drummer and by playing AC#EG#BD#....the ear hears the “Chord” Amj9#11....but he doesn’t have to play it as thirds only up and down, he can play AG#AC#ED#EG#ABA....and the chord is still heard. Another would be to skip around like C#AEC#G#EBG#C#AED#....things like that still give the ear grounding on that Amaj7#11 type chord. And the more sequential it is executed, the better the “implied chord” concept comes across. So if idea was to go from A chord harmony to a G#7, the phrasing should mimic the note sequence of the A chord phrase but a half step down diatonically, with the B altered to B#... so B#G#D#B#F#D#AF#B#G# etc...

Point being, with carefully chosen notes from the scale, and rhythmic phrasing, chords are not “played” or even heard vertically, but implied melodically.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 16 2021 14:52:08
 
El Burdo

 

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RE: Sharing "implied" chor... (in reply to joevidetto

I was wondering what Mark2 thought actually, but I do feel better now that I know what arpeggios are.

My point was 'playing the chords' involves referring to chord tones. rasqeo77 has it right. Doesn't have to be 'all' but 'some' is usually the way forward. Generally, 3rds and 7ths are the chord tones to concentrate on (unless you want to be quite modern and only allude to the harmony, whence stable tones like the 5th or Root are interesting). They are called 'guide tones' and come from the chord. I'm not sure what Mark2 meant, hence my question.

(Of course, a horn player can play a scale which contains the chord tones and not make a clear reference to the chord, and plenty do that.)

Actually, I always thought that if a horn player blew REEEELLY hard, they would generate appropriate simultaneous overtones for the chord, a bit like Lalah Hathaway with Snarky Puppy (just after 6 minutes) -
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 16 2021 15:51:12
 
Ricardo

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RE: Sharing "implied" chor... (in reply to El Burdo

quote:

My point was 'playing the chords' involves referring to chord tones. rasqeo77 has it right. Doesn't have to be 'all' but 'some' is usually the way forward. Generally, 3rds and 7ths are the chord tones to concentrate on (unless you want to be quite modern and only allude to the harmony, whence stable tones like the 5th or Root are interesting). They are called 'guide tones' and come from the chord. I'm not sure what Mark2 meant, hence my question.


Well that means you just read one quote and didn’t follow the discussion because you thought Mark2 said something weird. The topic is IMPLIED CHORDS, meaning when the darn chords are actually NOT PLAYED. Playing 3rds 7ths or #11 when there are no existing chords by some other instrument are meaningless (unless we are back to invisible roots again). Since we often play single note lines in flamenco the OP wanted “chord implications” of falsetas in chart style. Since someone didn’t understand this concept, Mark2 CORRECTLY made an analogy to a horn player that can outline desired chords (arpeggiated and connected) that are not being played. It was quite clear and appropriate for the topic and as a reply to folks that didn’t understand what Joe wanted.

And if you guys think a horn or any instrument can imply chords by just a few special notes (meaning NOT the elaborated arpegio sequences I described), well, it’s not possible unless the listeners all already have the chords in their head. In general it will just sound like random individual notes.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 16 2021 16:22:20
 
Mark2

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RE: Sharing "implied" chor... (in reply to El Burdo

Sorry, I thought what I wrote was clear-playing a chord involves playing the notes of the chord, or at least some of them, at the same time. Of course many instruments can only play one note at a time so to "imply" chords, they use arpeggios and/or scale/melodic runs that outline the chord in some recognizable way. It is in this way that a player can imply chord changes without actually playing any chords.

As far as flamenco, many falsetas do not include the playing of chords, so being able to extract the implied chords from a melodic passage gives the listener the ability to analyze the falseta's underlying harmony and perhaps create a new one one based on the implied chords. This is a great exercise for jazz musicians especially because it opens the door to understanding chord substitutions in melodic playing, which are often used by good jazz players. It's also informative in modern flamenco playing for the same reasons.

Personally the execution of advanced falsetas, and flamenco technique in general, IOW just playing it clean, consumes most of my energy so I don't often worry about if Vicente played a diminished scale in a passage, or if he implied a b5 substitution. OTOH, I recently reworked a few alegrias picados to include whole tone passages that resolve back to the major scale. Fun, but what would really matter to me is if I could someday play them strong and clean at 170bpm. For me, that is the bigger challenge. I am super impressed with Ricardo's chart though....takes good ears and a lot of brain cells to figure that out.




quote:

ORIGINAL: El Burdo

I was wondering what Mark2 thought actually, but I do feel better now that I know what arpeggios are.

My point was 'playing the chords' involves referring to chord tones. rasqeo77 has it right. Doesn't have to be 'all' but 'some' is usually the way forward. Generally, 3rds and 7ths are the chord tones to concentrate on (unless you want to be quite modern and only allude to the harmony, whence stable tones like the 5th or Root are interesting). They are called 'guide tones' and come from the chord. I'm not sure what Mark2 meant, hence my question.

(Of course, a horn player can play a scale which contains the chord tones and not make a clear reference to the chord, and plenty do that.)

Actually, I always thought that if a horn player blew REEEELLY hard, they would generate appropriate simultaneous overtones for the chord, a bit like Lalah Hathaway with Snarky Puppy (just after 6 minutes) -
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 16 2021 20:35:50
 
chester

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RE: Sharing "implied" chor... (in reply to joevidetto

quote:

In my earlier days rock and pop days, I could often come close to the lead parts of songs, but the embedded chords I could never quite find.

The same has been true for my study of flamenco. When I learn a falseta, I feel I haven't learned much of anything if I can play it, but don't understand the implied chords and cannot compose something similar.


It can be difficult to start with complex compositions. Can you figure out the chords in "twinkle twinkle little star" and "happy birthday"?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 16 2021 21:37:11
 
joevidetto

 

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RE: Sharing "implied" chor... (in reply to joevidetto

quote:

"twinkle twinkle little star" and "happy birthday"


Painfully slowly, with lots of trial and error. Part of the problem is I'm not sure on exactly what note the chord should change. I can tell if a chord is wrong, but can't always find the right one.

I know that learning to do this on lots of simple songs like this is a rite of passage - I still haven't gone through it.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 16 2021 23:23:38
 
chester

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RE: Sharing "implied" chor... (in reply to joevidetto

quote:

ORIGINAL: joevidetto

quote:

"twinkle twinkle little star" and "happy birthday"


Painfully slowly, with lots of trial and error. Part of the problem is I'm not sure on exactly what note the chord should change. I can tell if a chord is wrong, but can't always find the right one.

I know that learning to do this on lots of simple songs like this is a rite of passage - I still haven't gone through it.


Yeah don't worry it's hard for everyone at first and there's no way around it but to keep at it. A good teacher can walk you through some techniques but at the end of the day it's only up to you and the work you put in.

Both the tunes I mentioned only use I, IV, and V (someone please correct me if I forgot a chord). So if you're in C major it's C, F, and G. Try to play the melody in that key and think about which chord the note you're playing belongs to. Singing will also help you coz you'll be able to play the chord and hear what it sounds like.

Like I said it's hard and will take some time, but what's life without challenges right? :)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 17 2021 1:45:26
 
chester

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RE: Sharing "implied" chor... (in reply to chester

quote:

rite of passage

That phrase makes me think of cargo cults. Figuring out simple songs isn't a ritual, it's just easier to start with.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 17 2021 1:48:06
 
Ricardo

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RE: Sharing "implied" chor... (in reply to joevidetto

Here is a chart for Soniquete from Zyryab...lot of chords in this one 😂


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Attachment (2)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 19 2021 16:48:52
 
Ricardo

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RE: Sharing "implied" chor... (in reply to Ricardo

Page 2. Time stamps in the chart are based on this:




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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 19 2021 16:52:22
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Sharing "implied" chor... (in reply to chester

quote:

someone please correct me if I forgot a chord


Although you can use simple triads as you stated, there are two traditional additions.

C:happy birthday to
G7: you. Happy birthday to
C:you. Happy
C7: Birthday dear
F: Chester.
Fm: Happy
C: Birthday
G7:to
C: you.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 22 2021 14:07:25
 
Sr. Martins

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RE: Sharing "implied" chor... (in reply to Ricardo

F: Ches
Fm: Ter

Sounds cooler

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 22 2021 14:39:25
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Sharing "implied" chor... (in reply to Sr. Martins

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sr. Martins

F: Ches
Fm: Ter

Sounds cooler


Ches (B natural)- ter (A natural)....I would wait until the A natural is finished holding before hitting the Fm, because it has an Ab.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 22 2021 18:05:51
 
joevidetto

 

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RE: Sharing "implied" chor... (in reply to joevidetto

So - we are in the TONALITY of C major - which goes to harmonic major ?mode? for just one chord ?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 22 2021 18:10:44
 
Sr. Martins

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RE: Sharing "implied" chor... (in reply to Ricardo

My Chester takes liberties and goes A to Ab for dramatic effect.

I am sure it would fit since Happy Birthday is that song where you usually hear all the modes (and more) being implied at the same time by the people singing it.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 22 2021 18:50:48
 
El Burdo

 

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RE: Sharing "implied" chor... (in reply to Ricardo

F: Che-
F#dim7: -ster ...(suitable pause) ...happy
C: birthday
G: et
C: -cet.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 22 2021 21:25:37
 
Ricardo

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RE: Sharing "implied" chor... (in reply to Sr. Martins

F#dim7 is nice too.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 22 2021 23:17:31
 
Sr. Martins

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RE: Sharing "implied" chor... (in reply to Ricardo



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 23 2021 3:02:39
 
chester

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RE: Sharing "implied" chor... (in reply to joevidetto

Haha it's not even near the "big day" but you guys make it feel like it is. Also spiced up my happy birthday game so thanks for that.

quote:

So - we are in the TONALITY of C major - which goes to harmonic major ?mode? for just one chord ?


You're overthinking it. It's just C major. Yeah sure with the Fm it "borrows" a note from the "harmonic major mode" but like you said it's just for a very short period of time so you can't really say that it "goes" there.

You can play notes from different scales and still be in the same key, it's like I said -- "spice".
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 23 2021 5:18:24
 
Ricardo

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RE: Sharing "implied" chor... (in reply to joevidetto

quote:

ORIGINAL: joevidetto

So - we are in the TONALITY of C major - which goes to harmonic major ?mode? for just one chord ?


As Chester said F minor is just a triad FAbC...so wide open for scale options. Yes C harmonic major keeps every other note the same, but if you wanted to improvise over a progression that uses the minor iv chord like that, sometimes minor as in C minor can work (Eb and Bb can come in to play, or B natural for harmonic minor) or melodic minor, which tends to be my choice (based on F, FGAbBbCDE).

Keep in mind, it is not “Just” that one chord, the C7 that takes you to F is also a change of scale. The melody of the song does not have the Bb but the guitar chord implies C major went to C mixolydian (F major tonicization) for a second. So we have 3 different scales actually.

Also Burdo suggested F# diminished instead of F minor...and depending on if you do F#m7b5 or fully diminished, it implies various different scale options...important to remember the melody on “Happy” is F natural, so it would be ideal to let go of the F#dim sound before the C chord...that is why the Fminor works best.

EDIT: I fixed page 1 of soniquete chart....come on guys nobody caught my mistake???

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 23 2021 16:38:42
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