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"...aspect of flamenco that’s inventive..." from SFaulk   You are logged in as Guest
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ernandez R

Posts: 537
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

"...aspect of flamenco that’s... 

Read this from SF on another thread:

"...I’m interested in the aspect of flamenco that’s inventive structurally or compositionally in the way it differs from classical music; flamenco is large part based on creating an individual voice within a set structure, classical music is based on ( at this time in history and in general) playing music that’s through composed from start to finish..."

Found this interesting, extracted from its original context of course, because I feel different modes of music, mode in a broad sense of the word, are innately fundamental to each perhaps akin to a genetic memory? I found over and over that certain Arabic , Flamenco, Spanish, and Carib rhythms and tone intervals flip a switch in my head that resonates in a way that Bach and Zeppelin never had. Not sure I have words to describe this effect properly.

I recall once in my youth ingesting a certain fungus and experiencing visual cues almost exactly as depicted in Aztec art, of course no telling what came first, of course I had seen Aztec art so as a study my hypothesis is flawed.

During another experience, don't get the idea a was some kind of shroom head ;) , I sat down to play a Clasical piece I had been working on, I'm all squared up, foot stool, music stand a sheet music, metranome, at some point it become obvious it was so riged and structured, sometime during the experience I kicked back, slouched down and started jamming on a blues scale and suddenly felt free. The contrast stayed with me and my perception of what made one flow mentally verses being trapped or rather constrained become a key point in how I judged many aspects of my life. Some traps are wonderful and life would be freighting without them; and lonely.

So, the other day my shop minion explained how a music major buddy of his was sitting before his professor with his chello in hand, the prof asked if he had memorized the music and guy says yes, prof askes what is the third note of the fifth measure, and of course guy says I don't know. Prof says, then you really haven't memorized the music. I thought about this for a couple of days, pulled out a simple piece of music I was working on before the moose got me, four monthes cochbound but the drugs made it imposable for me to use it. Anyway I sat down and told myself I was going to memorize this one page piece of music, the dreaded Petenera...

So, here is a piece quasi-flamenco, the music that resonates in my mind but in a structure I find confining. In the end I am a human with a mind, traps we all make in our mind; I think I'll take this trap apart, see what makes it tick, turn it into a metronome if I must, rebuild it into music, then make it mine, a note here, a cord there...

The timer went off a bit ago, time to get my foot out of this cooling epsom salt water, gear up and head out to the shop where my munuca and wood await!

HR

_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 4 2021 23:58:13
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13344
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: "...aspect of flamenco that... (in reply to ernandez R

quote:

"...I’m interested in the aspect of flamenco that’s inventive structurally or compositionally in the way it differs from classical music; flamenco is large part based on creating an individual voice within a set structure, classical music is based on ( at this time in history and in general) playing music that’s through composed from start to finish..."


Well, I would ask what you think is more difficult.... being yourself noodling on the blues scale? Or being “flamenco”? La Paquera studied the style of Caracol and was considered a “caracolera” during her career, however, it’s easy to say she was a unique voice in the flamenco world. Later we have all the camaroneros such as Potito duquende Cigala etc. The fact they each found their own sound and style was the bigger challenge, or learning Camaron material to start with?

My point would be, how and when did you learn the blues scale? The fact you can stick it into a classical piece on the fly means you are comfortable with how the scale works for a while, ie you “worked” on it at some point, in order to enjoy that “freedom”. We all develop a personal vocabulary as students....but to what end? I just feel like criticizing those that work diligently by copying, is going against the “flamenco way”.

Trying to be the “Sabicas” to other folks “paco”. Yes he made an impression by telling paco to compose his own and drop the Ricardo material... but that’s because such a statement was not normal for FLAMENCO! Also PDL could sense the jealousy in Sabicas statement... an irony since Sabicas himself ripped off note for note Ramon montoya, niño ricardo, and others! And I’m sure PDL was probably a unique case where the guy was playing the maestro material at a superior level already as a kid. So getting put off by folks on Instagram for working on the note for note stuff is counter productive imo.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2021 13:56:36
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: "...aspect of flamenco that... (in reply to Ricardo

Don’t gatekeep me bro! 😂 😂

I’ve already made it clear that I’m not against studies that mean taking up a piece verbatim. And that I don’t see it as a binary situation.
So here we are back at the same conversation, but from the point of view, I think, of comparison to classical music routines. Am I reading the OP correctly?

Also I’m a bit embarrassed to be quoted because I’m not an authority.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2021 14:37:49
 
Piwin

 

Posts: 3394
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

[Deleted] 

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jan. 6 2021 16:42:55
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2021 16:34:59
 
kitarist

Posts: 1456
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: "...aspect of flamenco that... (in reply to ernandez R

Dammit, Piwin, Just as I settle to read something interesting from you, you delete it

_____________________________

Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2021 16:46:00
 
Piwin

 

Posts: 3394
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

[Deleted] 

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jan. 6 2021 18:50:06
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2021 18:13:03
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1762
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: "...aspect of flamenco that... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Also PDL could sense the jealousy in Sabicas statement... an irony since Sabicas himself ripped off note for note Ramon montoya, niño ricardo, and others!


Yes, Sabicas seems to have felt quite insecure, which I find astonishing. But a mutual friend told me that when he met Sabas in New York, someone brought up Niño Ricardo, and Sabas said “Ah yes, he plays my material very well”, so there doesn’t appear to be much room for doubt. But then, which of us does not have his own weaknesses?

I found the scene in La Búsqueda quite touching where someone asks PdL about Sabas in the latter’s presence, and Sabas was openly crying at the praise.

But for myself, I could not name any piece that Sabas ripped off from Ricardo. Ricardo made few solo recordings*, but maybe I’m missing some.

*And back in the LP days, they were completely unobtainable in England. Pepe Martínez offered to send me one from Spain if I gave him the money, which he duly did. Unfortunately, when it arrived it was cracked all the way across.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2021 18:36:09
 
ernandez R

Posts: 537
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: "...aspect of flamenco that... (in reply to ernandez R

Interesting how we all would rather not be constrained yet we are limited by this vary nature. I recall telling people I was a nonconformist when I was fifteen but then my father telling me that I was conforming by issuing said statement; could have been my first lesson of knowledge verses wisdom.

To answer Ricardo, I’ve always been myself and music has always been a part of me. I find freedom in my flamenco much the same way I found it in the simple blues riffs my budy taught me thirty five years ago. I actually made a point of not learning to play anyone’s music so I would not be trapped in playing that one Beatles song or Stairway, but came to realize my idea was just another dead end and there was so much to learn. Now I noodle my frigian dom Flamingo for an hour or two every day adding a new cord here or a bit of falsetta there exactly because it frees my mind. Was hitten my por Ariba rosgaios right at the bridge last night for a good hour, as if each string was a drum and this morning my fingertips seemed bruised; damn it felt good, like most passionate experiences where you wake up sore the next morning and smile...

I’ve more to add but my two hour PT session is calling me, I’ll get back to the other comments later.

HR



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_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2021 21:09:16
 
Piwin

Posts: 3394
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: "...aspect of flamenco that... (in reply to kitarist

Sorry kitarist. It happened again.

I seem to be suffering from the ailment described in this thorough piece of research:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1311997/?page=1
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2021 23:37:30
 
kitarist

Posts: 1456
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: "...aspect of flamenco that... (in reply to Piwin




Please be real.. please be real..



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_____________________________

Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2021 23:42:12
 
Piwin

Posts: 3394
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: "...aspect of flamenco that... (in reply to kitarist

It was even replicated:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6743515/pdf/40617_2018_Article_290.pdf

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2078566/pdf/jaba-40-04-773.pdf

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2021 23:42:48
 
JasonM

Posts: 1808
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: "...aspect of flamenco that... (in reply to Piwin

quote:

I seem to be suffering from the ailment described in this thorough piece of research:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1311997/?page=1


It would have been so satisfying to turn in a blank research paper with just this cited reference
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 7 2021 0:09:59
 
ernandez R

Posts: 537
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: "...aspect of flamenco that... (in reply to ernandez R

Piwin,
Darn Brother, can’t hurt me or my ego on a foro and I alway like to read what you gave to say, let it stand I say!

Let’s see, where was I before I was interrupted by my two hour torture session? Oh ya, I guess in the end I would cut off my fingers to play like Paco or Sabicas but I’m well past the age where I’ll be playing anything but the simplest cords, the E Am C F G..., and I’m cool with that, I’ve no dream of playing for dancers or hire. Got the Sabicas Puro album playing on my phone as I type this amazed at the simplicity yet complex clarity of his playing...

Stephan, I would never think of you as Dozzar or Rick Morranus for that matter ;)
I was not thinking of the dichotomy of rigged note for note or free form, your words on creativity is what caught my attention, no one is an expert on creativity only the more practiced find avenues to express it? If can take a set of cords and a few notes of another falsetta and mash them together, they may not be our Ricardo’s Flamenco, I’m talking the technical content that he so ably gate keeps to prevent the Phoenicopteridae like myself from wadding in contaminating his pool of players...

Oy, distracted by my partner, the shenanigans in DC, and a frozen slab of moose ribs I need to cut up and prebake for Alaskan BBQ...

And my photo sideways...

HR

_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 7 2021 1:47:10
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13344
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: "...aspect of flamenco that... (in reply to Paul Magnussen

quote:

But for myself, I could not name any piece that Sabas ripped off from Ricardo. Ricardo made few solo recordings*, but maybe I’m missing some.


It’s not about pieces, but falsetas. I worked hard on some Sabicas A minor buleria falsetas and my favorite one I showed off to Paco de Malaga (born 10 years before PDL) he told me right away that was N. Ricardo. I was surprised and sort of bummed. I went hunting and finally found it. In the same buleria I later realized one falseta of R. Montoya and yet another from Pepe Martinez. I can admit, of course, Sabicas had the superior execution, but again, this concept of “being original” like in pop rock dance trance does not apply to flamenco. And these quotations are not “note for note rip offs” as a concept, they are like a tip of the hat to fellow artists in context, not to mention the educational pathway to understanding what is “flamenco”.

Perhaps because Sabicas was in USA for so long this idea of being a unique creative popular artist got under his skin. But the very nature of cante is against this. A good cantaor does not suddenly invent a solea, that would be BS.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 7 2021 5:36:18
 
Piwin

Posts: 3394
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: "...aspect of flamenco that... (in reply to ernandez R

quote:

Darn Brother, can’t hurt me or my ego on a foro and I alway like to read what you gave to say, let it stand I say!


Haha. Cheers! It wasn't anything aimed at you or anything. I was just having a hard time formulating what I wanted to say, just didn't feel right, and tbh it wasn't really on topic anyway
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 7 2021 18:03:56
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