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RE: What's up with this newfangled culture of "interpreting" others intrepretations?   You are logged in as Guest
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mark indigo

 

Posts: 3299
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RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to Piwin

quote:

And yeah, using that block thing isn't an expression of ill will or anything. It probably is related to this whole pandemic business since I had never used it before this year. Just doing what I feel I need to do to preserve my own sanity. To better days.

It's a neat way of screening out trolls basically, the only drawback being when someone else takes up the baton of trying to reason with them and quotes them, then you can see what they posted....

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 30 2020 20:23:13
 
mark indigo

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 30 2020 20:34:13
 
mark indigo

 

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RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to RobF

quote:

I'm Português and you can go look at a map and then kindly go service yourself before you try to tell me what flamenco is and isn't, you anglo-american gate-keeper wanna-be's
quote:

I dunno, your Wikipedia entry about yourself says you were born in San Francisco and raised in the California psychedelic scene, but all the links provided for reference are either dead or blind. Probably wanna update that, or maybe not.


there's a link right here -

https://tranceam.org/aaron-peacock-aka-ocelot-dispatch-from-portugal/

in the interview he says: "I’m born and raised in Minnesota and Wisconsin FFS…" (no offence intended to other Minnesotans or Wisconsinites)

but my favourite bit of the interview is this:

"I’d been trying to make electronic music since 1993, but none of it was contextually appropriate for the people I tried to inflict it upon until such a time as I learned to “try to make it sound a bit more like trance if playing it for trance parties”…"



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 30 2020 20:44:57
 
Mark2

Posts: 1579
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

born in San Francisco and raised in the California psychedelic scene,


Dude isn't old enough for that. I'm older than him and I mostly missed it too. Not that some folks didn't stop dropping acid/mushrooms, but that scene, the whole 60's free love thing, as it were, didn't extend to the 80's.

I remembered the name of George Peacock's son and he isn't him either. Good thing, I really liked George(RIP). He owned a really small music store in Noe Valley in SF, full of dusty old violins and guitars. I couldn't understand how he stayed open. One day I was talking to a violin player about scoring some weed and he told me to go to Peacock Music and ask George for the "special" guitar strings. I did, and George gave me a funny look, until I mentioned the violin player. He then asked if I wanted the "standard special" strings or the "extra special" ones. :-)

I became a regular customer, but could never find any music related items of interest, unless you consider the "strings" music related. He did have a student conde there, but I already had one.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 30 2020 22:43:39
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 30 2020 22:50:59
 
Mark2

Posts: 1579
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From: San Francisco

RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to Guest

Absolutely-“ arrogant newbies who can see Spain from their front porch” is the name of my new band. You, otoh, could leave and I’d never notice.



quote:

ORIGINAL: rasqeo77

Missing him already, eh?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 30 2020 23:51:17
 
RobF

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RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to Mark2

quote:

Dude isn't old enough for that.

It’s my bad. Unless the Wikipedia entry was recently updated, it says born in California, but a link (which isn’t dead) lists the San Francisco psy scene of the 90's as an influence.

At any rate, I don’t want to vilify anyone, as sometimes there’s unseen elements at play and this pandemic has stretched many to a near breaking point. It’s possible there’s an unseen gallery being played to, but looking past the venom of some of the content it’s also possible it’s a case of a highly creative person momentarily slipping off the rails and lashing out without really considering the consequences or even the justification. I’m willing to give the benefit and hope things turn around for the better for him, if circumstances have become that dire.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 31 2020 1:15:23
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 31 2020 13:50:51
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3299
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to Mark2

quote:

Dude isn't old enough for that. I'm older than him and I mostly missed it too. Not that some folks didn't stop dropping acid/mushrooms, but that scene, the whole 60's free love thing, as it were, didn't extend to the 80's.


Rave/techno scene. Drug of choice MDMA / Ecstasy. Second choice combining coke/speed with acid/magic mushrooms.... That scene was building in the 80's (a friend of mine a year older than me encountered it in Goa in the mid-80's when I was still at school) and really took off in the early 90's, around the time I was getting into flamenco.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 31 2020 14:09:47
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3299
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RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to RobF

quote:

It’s my bad. Unless the Wikipedia entry was recently updated, it says born in California, but a link (which isn’t dead) lists the San Francisco psy scene of the 90's as an influence.


You were right first time, although the detail was apparently not quite right, check out the link I posted above.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 31 2020 14:10:53
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12573
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From: Washington DC

RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

I'm Português and you can go look at a map and then kindly go service yourself before you try to tell me what flamenco is and isn't, you anglo-american gate-keeper wanna-be's
quote:

I dunno, your Wikipedia entry about yourself says you were born in San Francisco and raised in the California psychedelic scene, but all the links provided for reference are either dead or blind. Probably wanna update that, or maybe not.


there's a link right here -

https://tranceam.org/aaron-peacock-aka-ocelot-dispatch-from-portugal/

in the interview he says: "I’m born and raised in Minnesota and Wisconsin FFS…" (no offence intended to other Minnesotans or Wisconsinites)

but my favourite bit of the interview is this:

"I’d been trying to make electronic music since 1993, but none of it was contextually appropriate for the people I tried to inflict it upon until such a time as I learned to “try to make it sound a bit more like trance if playing it for trance parties”…"




And here is the interview quote that explains his issue in this topic about flamenco guitarists...I was wrongly thinking his mentality was pop rock based, but it’s this electronic dance sh1t:

“I’ve mostly seen stylistic trend shifts that benefit box-think copycats and harm original music makers, and this seems rather deliberate in scenes determined to keep a rolling lineup of 600 euro timeslots and maintaining organizational hegemony over social networks by genre-based loyalty campaigns.”

I guess in the back of my mind I wanted to believe the “genius creativity” he claimed to possess was related to actually playing an instrument, not pushing two buttons to influence a computer’s sample sounds. He seems to have tasted success in the genre so it’s understandable how an ego is formed around a talent that is two steps above a soccer mom DJ with an iPhone dance party playlist and Bose speaker.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 31 2020 15:56:50
 
RobF

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RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to Ricardo




(I hasten to caution that the odd “colourful word” does creep into the lyrics on occasion, so if there are any little ones about, be forewarned. But, the delicate poignancy of the coda makes it all worthwhile - so honest, yet understated and restrained. A true gem.)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 31 2020 16:46:10
 
kitarist

Posts: 1153
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to Guest

quote:

ORIGINAL: rasqeo77
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark2

You, otoh, could leave and I’d never notice.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rasqeo77

Missing him already, eh?



Why would I do that when people like you are SO easy to wind up?


Why would you admit in straight text that you are here to troll when trolling is likely against the foro rules and can result in you being volunteered to leave? Doesn't seem very smart, but thanks for saying the quiet part aloud. BTW I hadn't noticed you being quite so belligerent in the delcamp forum. OTOH the delcamp forum has super-strict rules that are ruthlessly enforced (which would explain that behavioural difference), so I guess the foro here allows you to reveal more of your true nature, so to speak

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 31 2020 18:56:28
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 31 2020 20:03:48
 
kitarist

Posts: 1153
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RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to Guest

quote:

Mission accomplished - the two people who dared to question the RULES OF FLAMENCO have been hounded away.


Haha you are so easy to wind up

(See how stupid this is?)

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 31 2020 20:15:20
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 31 2020 20:59:23
 
chester

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RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to mark indigo

Listen I'm sure many of you are very fine people but the way you're dog piling and stalking some internet stranger is not putting you in the best light
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 31 2020 22:43:12
 
RobF

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RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to chester

Dude comes on and says he’s portugués, tells a person from France that they’re American, calls people who speak Spanish and/or live in Spain Anglo-American gate-keepers, and basically denigrates and insults anyone and everyone in sight who doesn’t agree with him, but calling him out on his BS is stalking? I don’t think so.

I have had the sad experience of watching gifted friends virtually destroy their lives due to their suffering from bipolar disorder and have been trying to indirectly caution people that some of what has occurred here could be due to someone hitting the peak of a manic episode. As there’s no shame in that, I’ve been advocating compassion. But that doesn’t mean people have to humour someone while they fly off into some kind of insane rant. Part of helping is to gently push back with reality, IMO, something Ricardo has done, as well as pretty well everyone else involved who isn’t just sh*t disturbing. I’m sure you’re a fine person, too, but I think calling people who are trying to pick up the pieces and make sense out of a particularly unpleasant event a bunch of stalkers is a little off.

I’ve tried more than once to lighten the mood on the thread with humour and it keeps getting pulled back into the mud. I don’t accept being called a stalker by a complete stranger, either, but have at it, it’s par for the course for this thread.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 31 2020 23:17:15
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3299
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to RobF

quote:

Dude comes on and says he’s portugués, tells a person from France that they’re American, calls people who speak Spanish and/or live in Spain Anglo-American gate-keepers, and basically denigrates and insults anyone and everyone in sight who doesn’t agree with him, but calling him out on his BS is stalking? I don’t think so.

I have had the sad experience of watching gifted friends virtually destroy their lives due to their suffering from bipolar disorder and have been trying to indirectly caution people that some of what has occurred here could be due to someone hitting the peak of a manic episode. As there’s no shame in that, I’ve been advocating compassion. But that doesn’t mean people have to humour someone while they fly off into some kind of insane rant. Part of helping is to gently push back with reality, IMO, something Ricardo has done, as well as pretty well everyone else involved who isn’t just sh*t disturbing. I’m sure you’re a fine person, too, but I think calling people who are trying to pick up the pieces and make sense out of a particularly unpleasant event a bunch of stalkers is a little off.


Well said.

fact checking someone's claims about themselves by googling them isn't "stalking" and trying to make sense of what is going on isn't "dog-piling".

I'm not judgemental or stigmatising about mental health or substance abuse, and I've had someone close to me get into the rave scene in the 90's go completely off the rails and not come back. I had some alarm bells ringing way earlier in the thread before I started getting attacked for being "condescending" and "sensitive" and that episode just made it feel even more difficult and risky to address those concerns.... I feel really sad about this whole thread really, I don't know what is going on for other "internet strangers" but my gut feeling is that it's not good... it would be good if we could all look out for each other a bit more as well as looking after ourselves.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 1 2021 11:58:57
 
mark indigo

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 1 2021 12:03:24
 
estebanana

Posts: 7961
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RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to Mark2

“ music store in Noe Valley in SF, full of dusty old violins and guitars. I couldn't understand how he stayed open. One day I was talking to a violin player about scoring some weed and he told me to go to Peacock Music and ask George for the "special" guitar strings. I did, and George gave me a funny look, until I mentioned the violin player. He then asked if I wanted the "standard special" strings or the "extra special" ones. :-) ”

George was a funny guy.

Some days he was really mean to me and other days sort of generous. He was a not a great luthier, and it was a front for his dealing. He died of a brain tumor and while I was not close to him, I felt it was a premature loss to the ambiente and goodness of the music scene.

I think much if his moodiness and meanness was because he was paranoid about getting stung by police. As if they cared. He could have educated more instead of being gruff. His exterior was too brittle and he couldn’t discern earnest knowledge seekers from pot buyers. But I thought it was a loss nonetheless.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 1 2021 12:19:47
 
estebanana

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RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Well, you demonstrate the opposite. But have fun as a tourist, be sure to get lots of cellphone videos of the “many bulerias at once”, it sounds amazing.


Ole’

I love a cellphone full of bullyrias

When I dug into this guy and saw he created ‘trance’ music I didn’t give him any thought after that. His questions in the beginning had substance, but he’s likely serviced himself with a few too many hits of trance party favors to take seriously now.
That said I still get bored by people who play solos note for note. Gate keepers cast me out. Lol 😂

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 1 2021 12:40:43
 
Piwin

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RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

Gate keepers cast me out


You're lucky. Up until a few hours ago I would've cast you into the undying flames to be poked and tickled for all eternity by little red dudes with miniature tridents, forced to listen to Baby Shark on eternal repeat and Dutch-ovened with an unending supply of Saturday morning farts. But it's 2021 now. There's a new policy at the gate. I just have to call you a ninny poopy-head and tell you your feet stink. Done. You may pass.

edit: damn it. Now I have Baby Shark stuck in my head...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 1 2021 16:38:49
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3299
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

That said I still get bored by people who play solos note for note.

That's cool, that's your taste and your preference. I like how you say you get bored and not that the people doing it are boring/wrong/not flamenco/a-holes . I wonder how do you feel about people who play others' falsetas note for note but mix falsetas from different sources in performance to create a newly improvised "piece" every time? Or do you want them to tweak the falsetas so they are not note for note? Maybe you like personal takes on "traditional" falsetas or prefer people make their own "original" falsetas? I'm sure we could have an interesting chat about all this without needing to totally dismiss anyone who doesn't agree with us.


quote:

Gate keepers cast me out. Lol 😂

I know you're kidding, but honestly, I have no idea what all this "gatekeeper" stuff is about.


Back to playing solos note for note, when you see a programme like "Mi Primer Ole" and there's a kid playing Entre Dos Aguas or Tomate's Alegrias, or Gerardo's Verdiales or whatever I don't think anyone is really down on that are they? But there's a problem for anyone coming to flamenco later in life than their teens, for anyone coming to flamenco as an adult, that we need to go through some kind of process of learning the tradition before we can do our own thing with it, no? And already we have another big bunch of discussions over what constitutes "the tradition", and how to learn it, and how far we can stray from it and be original and creative and still be considered flamenco....

I think anyone who starts down the path of learning flamenco inevitably confronts these questions whether they think about them in a deliberate conceptual way or not. I think probably everyone has some kind of answer to these questions, whether it is in the form of words or just in what they play. I don't think my answers are the absolute right answers (for me or anyone else), and they change over time too. It's the kind of junk I think about when I'm waiting for a bus or on the loo.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 1 2021 18:25:09
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3299
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RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

bullyrias


AKA "bull-arrears" = debt or late payment for uncastrated male cattle.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 1 2021 18:42:05
 
kitarist

Posts: 1153
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RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

But there's a problem for anyone coming to flamenco later in life than their teens, for anyone coming to flamenco as an adult, that we need to go through some kind of process of learning the tradition before we can do our own thing with it, no?


Sorry, maybe you were paraphrasing (is it your position or someone else's?), but how and why is it a problem? Or are you referring to having less time available when you start as an adult?

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 1 2021 20:13:17
 
BarkellWH

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From: Washington, DC

RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to Piwin

quote:

Personally, I only know of 1 or 2 adult learners whose French is to me indistinguishable from a native. I'm sure there are more out there, but they're certainly not the majority. I don't know the reasons why, but this is an area where I do find that the majority of adult learners fare rather poorly (not just compared to children. just poorly in terms of what should be theoretically possible).


In the US Foreign Service I was never assigned to a French language-speaking country and have never attempted to study or learn the language. Nevertheless, I have a marvelous book entitled "Empires of the Word: A Language History of the World," by the linguist Nicholas Ostler, from which I have drawn a quote by the French poet, journalist, and novelist Anatole France. Ostler suggests that the quote illustrates how the French are characteristically self-conscious and self-regarding with respect to the virtues inherent in their language.

"La langue Francaise est una femme. Et cette femme est si belle, si fiere, si modeste, si hardie, si touchante, si voluptueuse, si chaste, si noble, si familiere, si folle, si sage, qu' on l'aime de toute son ame, et qu' on n'est jamais tente de lui etre infidele."

"The French language is a woman. And that woman is so beautiful, so proud, so modest, to bold, so touching, so voluptuous, so chaste, so familiar, so mad, so wise, that one loves her with all one's soul, and is never tempted to be unfaithful to her."

Anatole France, 1844-1924

Bill

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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 1 2021 20:40:56
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3299
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RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to kitarist

quote:

Sorry, maybe you were paraphrasing (is it your position or someone else's?), but how and why is it a problem? Or are you referring to having less time available when you start as an adult?


it's not much of a "position" - more of an idle musing... but yeah, mainly having less time available, so we are trying to do maybe a decade or two of absorbing all at once.

Another version of the idea I was trying to articulate went like this: The flamenco artists we listen to pretty much all learnt as kids from a young age, and they absorbed the musical material of previous generations from family, teachers, records etc. and as young players in the early stage of a professional career they try to carve out their own version of what they have spent many hours learning and perfecting. I assume pretty much everyone here didn’t follow that path, but started learning flamenco later in life, so there’s a problem for us as adult learners in that we want to do our own thing and be creative, but without those many hours absorbing all that material the things we create will likely miss the mark we are aiming for.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 1 2021 21:24:35
 
estebanana

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RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to mark indigo

I’m not interested in copies of guitar solos, which other people are free to play, I’m not against studying them. If I want to listen to a particular artists solo work, I’ll go right to the original artist.
As for the falseta vs. learning a set piece, I don’t see it as a binary situation where it’s one or the other. It’s a mixture. It’s about internalizing structures and ways of putting chords and mechanisms together and that can by learned by taking a whole solo verbatim or by taking enough fragments from it to learn the original artists moves and intent.

I see it as a process where synthesis of your own materials can be achieved just fine without learning whole set pieces, and also that internalizing, reorganizing inside yourself and then creating a new solo from that process is not only more difficult to master, but deeply satisfying to both the maker of new music and the listeners.

My interest in solo work as a listener is to understand or feel how a player gathered material from a diverse ( or narrow) field of primary sources and created an individual dialectic with the materials. Gather, study, attain some mastery with material then synthesize it into an individual statement.
I’m not so much interested in the gathering and mastering stages as stand alone processes. I’m interested in a witnessing a player take in material from past guitarists, musically meditating on it, then eventually coming out with their own version or new angle.

That’s it, all I see is that interpretation of existing solos note for note isn’t as important to me in a flamenco context. If we were speaking about violin or piano concertos that’s a different genre with different sensibilities.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 2 2021 3:05:54
 
estebanana

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RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to mark indigo

I’m probably moderately intelligent, so if I say something flip or sarcastic it’s. 40/60 chance I did back it up with a reasoned out logic based on a few years of observation. But then again I could be elevating myself beyond my station by claiming moderate intelligence.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 2 2021 4:38:39
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