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RE: The Trump Nightmare is Over!   You are logged in as Guest
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Mark2

Posts: 1557
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: The Trump Nightmare is Over! (in reply to estebanana

Well I've been here my entire life and I'm still here. My kids went to public schools, then community college, then UC's. They are both doing great, and they received good educations.

And I've been paying ever more significant amounts of property taxes since 1983. So, we have different perspectives. Saying it's a fact doesn't make it so. My reality is that property taxes are already high, but I don't expect people who don't pay them to appreciate that.


quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

I was there in 1978, I know. It devastated public education. This is a fact. Then other states followed with Jarvis plan clones and devastation continued.

It’s a fact.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 12 2021 18:44:53
 
estebanana

Posts: 7937
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: The Trump Nightmare is Over! (in reply to Mark2

Nope, you’re off base/ Prop 13 gutted CA schools- the problem is that Jarvis was draconian, it stripped public school funding and pushed California below the average per student budget. It killed off vocational programs. The problem was that prop 13 as written in 1978 was too drastic and didn’t approach the relationship between local property taxes and school funding, it just leveled how much matching funding came from property tax no matter whether the district was rich or poor or anything in between. Property Tax decreased by 60% and it virtually cut out the joint funding that the state and local government worked together to create.

School funding works by three funds joining together to make complicated system of matching funds to reach a national average per student amount. Ca uses state and federal money, states that don’t have that structure use three sources - local tax, state funding, federal funding, I believe Texas for example uses the tri fund system. Texas schools are above national average funding per student, Ca still below.

What does it mean? It means kids in Oakland don’t have access to programs that would propel them to go to school five miles away at UC Berkeley, but wealthy kids in Santa Barbara 275 miles away can choose between UC San Diego or UC Berkeley. It set up a dynamic of savage inequalities between rich and poor districts and rich and poor parents.

There’s no question that Prop 13 hurt education, and it’s a subject that has been extensively debated and written about in popular news and education journals. No question about it. It’s a non starter to claim that just my kids sailed through school that millions of others were not disadvantaged by the drastic change to school funding in 1979, the years after it passed.

For anyone interested this article is a beginning synopsis of how schools and families were effected, it’s one study among dozens and many studied are peer reviewed from education and political publications.

https://www.kqed.org/news/11701044/how-proposition-13-transformed-neighborhood-public-schools-throughout-california


Here’s a thoughtful Op Ed from LA Times June 2020 as to what a reasonable reform to 13 looks like-

Agriculture and residential land isn’t involved, only a change to corporate tax and high end residential ( I’m not crying a river for landlords in California)


https://www.google.co.jp/amp/s/www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2020-07-16/proposition-13-proposition-15-property-tax-revolt%3f_amp=true

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 13 2021 0:33:57
 
Mark2

Posts: 1557
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: The Trump Nightmare is Over! (in reply to estebanana

Says the guy who has no kids who actually went to these schools and doesn't pay property tax in CA. You have zero actual experience with putting kids through through public schools but you know what's happening? Never went to a PTA meeting, never went to a parent teacher conference. Have you even been on an elementary, middle, or HS campus in the last 20 years? But you've read articles....

Based on the geniuses who raided the capital, few of whom are from CA, much less the bay area, I'd say CA is ahead of a lot of states.

The fact that you mention poor kids from Oakland who can't get into Berkeley....you apparently have no idea how hard it is for ANY kid to get into a UC, much less Berkeley or UCLA. I can tell you what it takes-parental support and engagement, as well as a really bright kid with an exceptional work ethic. I've talked to parents who's kids had 4-4.5 GPA's who didn't get into Berkeley. An address in Santa Barbara isn't going to cut it if the other things are not in place. One of my "rich" friends sent his daughter to SI in the city. Exclusive private high school. My kid was turned down there. She didn't get into the quality of college as my kid, who went to public HS. It's about the kid. Sorta like my Lester isn't going to make me sound like Antonio Rey.

My job has taken me to dozens of SF public school facilities in the last 30 years. I can tell you how they spend some of their money. There was the time they re-named a school for Thurgood Marshall. His widow was going to attend the re-opening so they spent over 100k doing minor fix ups like washing all the windows so the Mayor and his widow wouldn't have to see the dirty windows. Then there was the facilities head of SFUSD who lost his job because he took kick backs from contractors. Then of course all work has to pay prevailing wages, which are about double the wages that actually prevail in the market. The waste is compelling.

When it comes to building guitars, I'll take your word over anything I might think I know. When it comes to putting kids through public schools in my area, their condition, and the opportunities they offer to kids, I'll keep my own counsel.


quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Nope, you’re off base/ Prop 13 gutted CA schools- the problem is that Jarvis was draconian, it stripped public school funding and pushed California below the average per student budget. It killed off vocational programs. The problem was that prop 13 as written in 1978 was too drastic and didn’t approach the relationship between local property taxes and school funding, it just leveled how much matching funding came from property tax no matter whether the district was rich or poor or anything in between. Property Tax decreased by 60% and it virtually cut out the joint funding that the state and local government worked together to create.

School funding works by three funds joining together to make complicated system of matching funds to reach a national average per student amount. Ca uses state and federal money, states that don’t have that structure use three sources - local tax, state funding, federal funding, I believe Texas for example uses the tri fund system. Texas schools are above national average funding per student, Ca still below.

What does it mean? It means kids in Oakland don’t have access to programs that would propel them to go to school five miles away at UC Berkeley, but wealthy kids in Santa Barbara 275 miles away can choose between UC San Diego or UC Berkeley. It set up a dynamic of savage inequalities between rich and poor districts and rich and poor parents.

There’s no question that Prop 13 hurt education, and it’s a subject that has been extensively debated and written about in popular news and education journals. No question about it. It’s a non starter to claim that just my kids sailed through school that millions of others were not disadvantaged by the drastic change to school funding in 1979, the years after it passed.

For anyone interested this article is a beginning synopsis of how schools and families were effected, it’s one study among dozens and many studied are peer reviewed from education and political publications.

https://www.kqed.org/news/11701044/how-proposition-13-transformed-neighborhood-public-schools-throughout-california
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 13 2021 1:22:28
 
estebanana

Posts: 7937
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: The Trump Nightmare is Over! (in reply to Mark2

No, says a former teacher in Oakland and SF

You don’t know anything about curriculum. You’re totally off base.

It not about your kids or my family- it’s about teacher salary, support per student and curriculum cuts and cuts to student services. Not to mention the wrong kind of corporate granting and gifting.
The cuts to programs after Jarvis were drastic, this is widely acknowledged.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 13 2021 8:23:49
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12394
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: The Trump Nightmare is Over! (in reply to estebanana

Yes, because my better paid teachers throughout my life were certainly the BEST ones at teaching me. Those underpaid teachers deliberately keep important info to themselves. Thank god my public schooling was so well funded it allowed me to live my dream of being a flamenco guitarist, those poor kids today that won’t be able to do anything in life.

Anyway, all sarcastic of course ... school is about what the students put in to it and the environment. Look how messed up private schools can get, gross. Teachers are jumping ship because of PARENTS trying to let kids get credit for not trying. No child left behind, everybody gets a trophy was the beginning of the end in this country. I realized what was going on when I befriended a Chinese kid in high school (bizarre top level work ethic and A+ grades) who admitted his parents sent him to USA because he was too STUPID to continue school over there. Embarrassing and it is not about money AT ALL.

Last thing about property tax-well Covid 19 has showed that big Corp doesnt’ even need to pay utility or RENT on a building and it’s up keep, much less tax on the stupid space, because they can turn profit from employees working AT HOME on their own computers. Get ready for more collapse when they get wise.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 13 2021 14:17:32
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3072
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: The Trump Nightmare is Over! (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Teachers are jumping ship because of PARENTS trying to let kids get credit for not trying.


How things have changed. When I was a kid, if I didn't do well on a test or got a mediocre grade on a report card, my parents sat me down, read me the riot act, and grounded me for a period of time.

Now, if a kid doesn't do well on a test or gets a mediocre grade on a report card, his parents storm down to the the classroom, confront the teacher, and blame the teacher for not "coddling" their little darling.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 13 2021 15:30:43
 
Mark2

Posts: 1557
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: The Trump Nightmare is Over! (in reply to estebanana

We all have an agenda. For me, it is all about my kids, my community, and yes, the amount of tax required. I don't stay up nights worrying about teacher salaries and benefits, but I have voted for several bond measures and assessments that benefitted schools. I do believe a well educated population is the best way to improve the country. But I don't think taking the brakes off the ability of the government to increase property tax is equitable or even moral. Under 15, some long time property owners would have been forced to sell their properties simply because they couldn't afford the PT.

As it stands today, property tax bills in San Francisco include four extra assessments for schools-one for school facilities, one to provide a living wage for teachers, another for teacher support, and one extra parcel tax. In Pacifica there are five extra charges related to schools. Pacifica is also building subsidized housing for school district employees. What's next? Housing for cops? How about plumbers? Let's face it, there will never be enough money for schools according to some of the folks who work in them. And that is human nature. I'd like to receive more for my work as well.

Here is some interesting data that to me, indicates the sky isn't exactly falling with regards to school funding, but again I understand that some will feel it's not enough. So be it.

https://lao.ca.gov/Publications/Report/4136

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

No, says a former teacher in Oakland and SF

You don’t know anything about curriculum. You’re totally off base.

It not about your kids or my family- it’s about teacher salary, support per student and curriculum cuts and cuts to student services. Not to mention the wrong kind of corporate granting and gifting.
The cuts to programs after Jarvis were drastic, this is widely acknowledged.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 13 2021 17:59:04
 
chester

Posts: 780
Joined: Oct. 29 2010
 

RE: The Trump Nightmare is Over! (in reply to Mark2

quote:

I know a few trump supporters who are friends. They are successful relatively wealthy business owners. I'm pretty sure their motivations have nothing to do with your description.


Rich people voting republican in order to pay less taxes is one thing, but the vast majority of MAGA people do not stand to gain from the republican tax reform. Instead they're led to believe that the Democrats will institute some form of totalitarian regime where personal ownership is outlawed, statues of satan will be erected in every street corner, and pregnant women will be forced to terminate their pregnancies.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 13 2021 23:58:46
 
Mark2

Posts: 1557
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: The Trump Nightmare is Over! (in reply to chester

Agreed, the majority were sold a bill of goods IMO. "Your 401K will crash, your guns will be taken away, the US will become a socialist country", etc. Overblown.

But we might disagree on the definition of "rich"

To me it means you have enough to do what you want, when you want, without regard to the cost. Obviously the amount varies from person to person.

To the dems, it means anyone earning more than a certain amount, without regard to regional differences in the cost of living. Obama picked 250k, Biden seems to think it's 400k.

In the bay area, I don't think that number does it for a lot of people.


quote:

ORIGINAL: chester

quote:

I know a few trump supporters who are friends. They are successful relatively wealthy business owners. I'm pretty sure their motivations have nothing to do with your description.


Rich people voting republican in order to pay less taxes is one thing, but the vast majority of MAGA people do not stand to gain from the republican tax reform. Instead they're led to believe that the Democrats will institute some form of totalitarian regime where personal ownership is outlawed, statues of satan will be erected in every street corner, and pregnant women will be forced to terminate their pregnancies.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 14 2021 16:19:07
 
estebanana

Posts: 7937
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: The Trump Nightmare is Over! (in reply to Mark2

The misinformation here that gets bumped around as talking points makes my head explode. I’ve been talking to Shroomy about this and I get why he chooses not to participate. I could crush every argument made, but it won’t mean a thing because the confirmation bias of y’all is thick as the skin on a rhinoceroses testicles. This is a viper pit of Dunning-Kruger level folly.

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https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 15 2021 2:08:20
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12394
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: The Trump Nightmare is Over! (in reply to estebanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

The misinformation here that gets bumped around as talking points makes my head explode. I’ve been talking to Shroomy about this and I get why he chooses not to participate. I could crush every argument made, but it won’t mean a thing because the confirmation bias of y’all is thick as the skin on a rhinoceroses testicles. This is a viper pit of Dunning-Kruger level folly.


Shoot you got everybody. You win!!! Tell us what to do next? I guess just sit back and watch the country improve? Hurray!

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 15 2021 18:12:31
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1683
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: The Trump Nightmare is Over! (in reply to estebanana

Anyone else think it’s about time to lock this thread?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 15 2021 18:14:49
 
kitarist

Posts: 1094
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: The Trump Nightmare is Over! (in reply to Paul Magnussen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul Magnussen

Anyone else think it’s about time to lock this thread?


yup

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 15 2021 18:16:16
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12394
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: The Trump Nightmare is Over! (in reply to Paul Magnussen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul Magnussen

Anyone else think it’s about time to lock this thread?


We still have a few days before the nightmare is finally over, THEN we can lock it!

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 15 2021 18:16:59
 
Piwin

Posts: 3012
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: The Trump Nightmare is Over! (in reply to estebanana

quote:

rhinoceroses testicles


IIRC they're the indoor type. We really drew the short straw of the evolutionary game on that one...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 15 2021 18:56:27
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 2954
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: The Trump Nightmare is Over! (in reply to chester

A friend posted this link a couple of days ago. I learned a lot from it. A Video Game Designer Analyzes QAnon.

https://tinyurl.com/yxcxoc6z

It's much more informative than the vague arm waving I have come across before now.
The writer makes clear how QAnon can attract and capture smart people. It makes a case that QAnon is both more influential and more dangerous than I had thought.

One of my friends, and a relative who has a PhD in psychology and owns a successful business, have each just come out full-on bonkers. They haven't specifically mentioned QAnon, but they display the symptoms you might expect from reading the article.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 15 2021 19:20:35
 
Escribano

Posts: 6074
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: The Trump Nightmare is Over! (in reply to Richard Jernigan

Locked

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 15 2021 20:16:42
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