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RE: The Trump Nightmare is Over!   You are logged in as Guest
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Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3016
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: The Trump Nightmare is Over! (in reply to BarkellWH

Well said Bill, but you're violating one of the primary rules of politics--as I hope I have been--by providing a logical analysis.

Practical motivators in politics are fear, anger, self-interest, "identity"...Logic is so far down the list as to be completely off the table in practice. People pick up and enthusiastically repeat howling non sequiturs without the least compunction. Skilled politicians make up attractive ones.

My idea is that when people claim that mask mandates, limiting gatherings, etc. take away their freedom, they are just blaming something they can see and feel for something they experience subconsciously. This is not to excuse their selfish substitution of one thing for another.

They should be able to apply logic as you have, but at my late age I have been surprised by how many people are ruled by unexamined emotions. I suppose I spent too much of my life among engineers and scientists, thus preserving a youthful naivete.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 9 2021 23:14:15
 
mrstwinkle

 

Posts: 412
Joined: May 14 2017
 

RE: The Trump Nightmare is Over! (in reply to Guest

A video of evidence is not evidence.

OK. Another

https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1347318930138918930?s=20
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2021 0:07:21
 
Piwin

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2021 0:49:37
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12682
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: The Trump Nightmare is Over! (in reply to mrstwinkle

quote:

I'm not claiming anything other than any legal review of the process was blocked.


Trump had plenty of time to manufacture more fake ballots than Biden did. He lost the game fair and square the fool.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2021 3:58:55
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2021 7:04:59

payaso

 

Posts: 81
Joined: Dec. 7 2014
 

RE: The Trump Nightmare is Over! (in reply to Richard Jernigan

Yes, that’s very insightful. Maybe we can begin to understand at least some of Trump’s supporters if we recognise their deep sense of resentment and victimhood – the sense of being unjustly deprived of things that should rightfully be theirs and that have been taken away from them. So of course the election result was a ‘steal’, even before it took place. The idea was fomented by Trump for a long time, months before the election.

The whole idea of the need to Make America Great Again embodies the notion that things that have been diminished and stolen must be recovered. And perhaps there is some justification for that belief in the economic and societal changes of recent years, such as the extraordinary success of China’s economic progress and its devastating impact on some areas of US society.

If you start with the belief that you or others around you are the victims of powerful forces over which you have no control, it is not difficult to find confirmation that these forces are aimed against you personally and can be identified as originating from particular individuals or organisations. Maybe it’s 5G or Bill Gates, or George Soros, the Democrats, paedophiles, a virus hoax designed to scare, subjugate and control you. The Internet will easily provide direction and confirmation for your suspicions,

The Brexit phenomenon is closely similar, with supporters united in their belief that the UK’s ‘Sovereignty’ (whatever that means) has been taken away by (or given away to) the European Union and must be reclaimed at any cost.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2021 11:47:56
 
Mark2

Posts: 1588
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: The Trump Nightmare is Over! (in reply to payaso

I know a few trump supporters who are friends. They are successful relatively wealthy business owners. I'm pretty sure their motivations have nothing to do with your description. As opposed to victims, I think they view the situation as wanting to hold on to what they have earned. Biden promised to rescind the trump tax cuts, which would wipe out the 20% discount on pass through income. For people who's companies K1 returns comprise the bulk of their income, this is a huge tax increase. Biden also promised to raise taxes on people who are in the top bracket. This double hit could increase the tax these folks pay by tens, or even hundreds of thousands of dollars a year.

Sometimes it's not complicated, it can just be about the money.

I'm glad trump is going, but I can certainly understand why people who are already paying hundreds of thousands in taxes per year don't want to see that number increase. Other ideas, such as a wealth tax, while unlikely to pass, are a red flag for anyone who has managed to accumulate a large amount of assets.

Aside from my friends I think anyone who is involved with the oil industry, for example, would be opposed to a Biden administration. That is a lot of people. As far as a "steal" I agree with Ricardo-both sides had ample opportunity to cheat, and I'm sure they did their all in that regard.

Do I believe 80 million people voted for Biden when he was lucky to draw 100 to a rally? No, but I do believe 80 million voted against trump, and he has no one to blame but himself for that.



quote:

ORIGINAL: payaso

Yes, that’s very insightful. Maybe we can begin to understand at least some of Trump’s supporters if we recognise their deep sense of resentment and victimhood – the sense of being unjustly deprived of things that should rightfully be theirs and that have been taken away from them. So of course the election result was a ‘steal’, even before it took place. The idea was fomented by Trump for a long time, months before the election.

The whole idea of the need to Make America Great Again embodies the notion that things that have been diminished and stolen must be recovered. And perhaps there is some justification for that belief in the economic and societal changes of recent years, such as the extraordinary success of China’s economic progress and its devastating impact on some areas of US society.

If you start with the belief that you or others around you are the victims of powerful forces over which you have no control, it is not difficult to find confirmation that these forces are aimed against you personally and can be identified as originating from particular individuals or organisations. Maybe it’s 5G or Bill Gates, or George Soros, the Democrats, paedophiles, a virus hoax designed to scare, subjugate and control you. The Internet will easily provide direction and confirmation for your suspicions,

The Brexit phenomenon is closely similar, with supporters united in their belief that the UK’s ‘Sovereignty’ (whatever that means) has been taken away by (or given away to) the European Union and must be reclaimed at any cost.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2021 20:09:03
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3016
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: The Trump Nightmare is Over! (in reply to Mark2

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark2

I know a few trump supporters who are friends. They are successful relatively wealthy business owners. I'm pretty sure their motivations have nothing to do with your description.<snip> it can just be about the money.



Yes. Despite his boasts that he would pay for the campaign himself, Trump was bankrolled to a sizable extent by the Mercers, father and daughter, and other billionaires. There was an article in the New Yorker by a resident of one of the wealthy towns in southern Connecticut about nearly uniform Trump support by his wealthy and educated neighbors. The votes of those people are easy to understand.

What has puzzled me to some extent is the credulity and anger of my friends.

No doubt my taxes will go up under Biden, but I thought a big tax cut for the wealthy in the midst of a booming economy was a bad idea.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2021 20:40:14
 
estebanana

Posts: 7999
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: The Trump Nightmare is Over! (in reply to Richard Jernigan

Well summed up Richard, you’re first post after the assault on the capitol was concise.

I wish people would get off the talking point that trumpism can be supported because of the tax issue. The tax code is absurd, wealthy people in the do not pay their fair share. The infrastructure of service providers, physical infrastructure infrastructure provided in metro areas, the mechanisms of wealth accrual that exist in the US are not free. Wealthy people take it for granted that this infrastructure that gives them the opportunity to accrue wealth exists. They take it for granted.

Wealthy people in the US need to pay more forward to support the infrastructure that allows them to become wealthy and they don’t. The attitude it my money because I worked hard isn’t wrong, but stepping on the backs of everyone else without replenishing the infrastructure is. Americans who are rich are spoiled at how easy it is to become wealthy in the US.

Not wanting to be taxed isn’t a good defense of trumpism because trumpism is racist. Trumpism is racism. I’ve been explaining this for five goddamned years. The GOP is openly supporting a racist quasi confederate president. And finally people are beginning to see it as the people he manipulate a can be seen; they are not poor, they are white and they are motivated by racism.

It’s a complete fallacy that these trump people are suffering. They are privileged white men who do not want to give up their traditional power hierarchy and position. Period. End of concept. Trumpism is white nationalist racism.


————————

Richard as an aside you might be interested in the newest book by writer Isabel Wilkerson called ‘Caste’ - she breaks down the historical relationship between the US conservative post civil war failure of reconstruction and how this ideologically fueled Nazism. And how that ideology was boomeranged forward into our times as a reaction to the civil rights movement and on into our present moment of fake white outrage.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2021 21:32:39
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12682
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: The Trump Nightmare is Over! (in reply to estebanana

If people and companies FILE their damn taxes correctly, they have no choice but to pay their “fair share”, or they are penalized (gov hopes they and we ALL make mistakes in order to rake it in). Anything else is literally “criminal” ie under the table un reported income. Again, IRS loves this ****, that’s how they brought down Capone etc.

And low class dumb rednecks have no special privileges so cut out the “all trumpers are white power privilege hungry” racists. Sure some are and so are some Democrats.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 11 2021 15:04:04
 
estebanana

Posts: 7999
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: The Trump Nightmare is Over! (in reply to Ricardo

You misinterpret my meaning- Trumpism and how he operates is racist, people who subscribe to his methods are racist.

I’m really tired of the ‘down trodden white working class’ as an excuse for systemic racism. And it not being recognized in its manifestations of voter suppression, school funding etc.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 11 2021 15:33:12
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 11 2021 15:49:32
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12682
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: The Trump Nightmare is Over! (in reply to Guest

quote:

There are all sorts of loopholes that companies and individuals legally exploit


If it’s legal then it is not a “loophole”. If people don’t like it or find it not ethical to use certain avenues to take deductions against income, then let new laws be written. (And that fight is going on all the time like it or not, there is not the moral high ground exclusive to one faction), I’m sure that companies that DO try to pull off under the table business practice and hide income, are not exclusively “trump supporters” 🙄

And about racism... as if it’s not more insidious to passive aggressively, with heaping mounds of hypocrisy, engage in blocking and avoiding (or vice versa) people from moving forward due to stereotypes and skin color or origin of birth etc. while pretending to be tolerant, or worse, using supposed tolerance to gain political leverage. Disgusting, it’s across the board from what I have witnessed, no special party or country that has exhibited immunity from the problem. There is extremist flag wavers, smile in face knife in your backers, some simply turn their gaze away from it, and there are finger pointing complainers who, like the SNL dog said “never invited a black person in their home ever”. It’s a lot of hypocrisy I see. Frankly I’m just fed up with the division and hatred people in this world have suddenly created for themselves thanks to clicking and sharing crap they “like” or not. Ridiculous, embarrassing adults are acting this way in this country and around the damn planet.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 11 2021 17:50:43
 
Piwin

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 11 2021 18:29:44
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3146
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: The Trump Nightmare is Over! (in reply to Richard Jernigan

One more thing I would note regarding the mob that assaulted the Capitol and our democratic institutions on January 6. They, like the mobs last summer who spent three months rioting and looting in Portland, Oregon and other US cities, provide cover for individuals to act as if they were brave and courageous. The individuals within a mob are big talkers and act tough.

Nevertheless, and this is something that has been demonstrated time and again, when such individuals are alone, without the mob providing cover, and facing even odds, they are pathetic cowards. These cowards have no moral fiber or physical courage when meeting their match alone. That is the nature of those who participate in mob action, whether on the right or the left.

Bill

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With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 11 2021 19:59:36
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 11 2021 22:59:54
 
estebanana

Posts: 7999
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: The Trump Nightmare is Over! (in reply to Richard Jernigan

It’s a fact that America has a systematic racism problem. One of the ways it’s perpetuated among white people is for one white person to tell other white people to stop taking about it.

On taxes, it’s not about loopholes, the corporate tax structure is out of balance with the amount of profits corporate boards of directors get in bonuses vs. the basic tax percentage that they should pay in order to support the infrastructure that keeps them in business. I’m not a wacky socialist, I just want corporations to pay a fair amount of property tax to support education and infrastructure in their regions of operating. It’s not too much to ask. And until an obscure tax nerd in California convinced republicans in Sacramento that corporate property taxes could be done away with, big industry paid a fair share.


I personally know some of the most engaged and important writers today working on racism issues in America, all concur that when white guys force out lawmakers from the congressional chambers, drop the US flag to the ground and put up a trump flag whilst waving a confederate flag in the capitol building, it’s no longer about ‘the economy’. It’s about white domination and control and that would concern a deep thinking person. There are vetted scholars of American history who agree that trump is a manifestation of a neo Confederate president, from David Beschloss to Isabel Wilkerson, Susan Bordo, Heather Cox Richardson, Nell Painter and the people who are former republicans like George F. Will and the band of political hacks organized at the Lincoln Project.

If you don’t know this body of mainstream work in American history that creates the reality as historically fact, don’t condescend to me about what is real and what isn’t. Systemic racism and trump are entwined and have concurrent agency on how it’s effecting white nationalist groups and anti woman groups. The proud boys gang are straight up Nazis.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 12 2021 1:43:30
 
kitarist

Posts: 1178
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: The Trump Nightmare is Over! (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

If it’s legal then it is not a “loophole”.


The current rates and the loopholes may be legal but they are not fair taxation. Wasn't this Stephen's point, that wealthy people (which includes individuals and corporations) do not currently pay their fair share?

As a [representative] example, data from the first year after Trump's 2017 tax law show that at least 60 of the Fortune 500 companies not only did not pay any federal taxes, but actually had negative tax - i.e. they "taxed" the federal government in the form of subsidies and rebates. Companies like Amazon, Chevron, Netflix, Eli Lilly, General Motors, Haliburton, Delta Airlines.

This may currently be legal, but sure as hell is not fair given the array of federal infrastructure, services, etc. these and many other companies depend on to be able to conduct their business effectively and profitably.



EDIT: I posted this before seeing Stephen's post; he makes a similar point on taxes.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 12 2021 2:08:19
 
estebanana

Posts: 7999
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: The Trump Nightmare is Over! (in reply to BarkellWH

Bill,

The trendy thing to say today is that history arcs towards justice, but I add, only if we put enough weight on the just end of branch.

I understand what you mean about group confluence and acting out, there are a lot of people who go along for the ride. Example: in Oakland during the Occupy Wall St. demonstrations my guitar shop was downtown in the area of the protest. I put an occupy wall st. sticker on my truck, and I had an Obama sticker on my tool box. The Obama sticker was sincere and me giving the finger to the conservatives I worked with who talked trash about ‘libtards’ as they heard Rush Limbaugh do. The occupy wall st. sticker was to keep protestors from trashing my truck.

One afternoon around 5pm I was leaving the shop when I drove unexpectedly down a street full of protesters and had to drive slowly through them to cross an intersection to get out of the vicinity. One young white dude approached my truck and encouraged others to surround me. Then he saw the occupy wall st. sticker and called back his gang. He shouted “It’s ok he’s cool!”

I got across the intersection and thought what an a$$hole. But my calculation was correct, they were ok with my uppity 8 year old Toyota truck as long as I kowtowed to them. Not that I think the original intention of the movement was completely wrong, I just thought it got stupid real fast because it was taken over by young white guys who just wanted to trash the streets.

But I see the BLM movement differently. In context of the injustice of police killings of black Americans I support the movement and I tend to look past the trashing element because I think the goal is more important, I’m not in favor of the disturbance, but I’m context big how black Americans have been treated historically it’s hypocritical to say are trouble makers. Remember Tulsa’s black community was subject of a literal massacre on the level of a city wide genocide. By contrast the fellows who broke into the capitol were not subject to centuries of police brutality, they in fact are the heirs of giving that brutality.

So I agree that there is disturbance or social violence in both cases, but I draw a distinction between them because they are not morally equivalent. One side wants to bend history toward justice, while the other wants to bend it back toward the brutality of the post reconstruction laws that oppress non white Americans.

There is a discussion about false equivalency here.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 12 2021 2:37:49
 
ernandez R

Posts: 354
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: The Trump Nightmare is Over! (in reply to Richard Jernigan

I have two photos in my head right now:

One is the painfully iconic black and white of the late Senator John Lewis on his hands and knees bloodied during the Selma bridge walk event as the police have their batons raised to strike him again...

The other is of a DC police officer having his head smashed in with a fire extinguisher by a white mob...

The contrasts could not be farther apart but one is basically the soul of the other. One is the power of a strong faith of his fellow man, a commitment to non violence and a truth, that all men are created equal and the other is its diametric opposite, loves twin, Hate.

I've spent most of the day considering these events but have only now began to shape them into something more then rage and pain and suffering, and yes even hate for the hate... Ill need more time.

HR

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 12 2021 3:04:00
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1722
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: The Trump Nightmare is Over! (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

If it’s legal then it is not a “loophole”.


Then your understanding of “loophole” is different from mine.

Mine is exactly: behaviour that was intended by the legislators to be prohibited by the law, but (owing to an oversight—or oversights—on their part) in fact is not.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 12 2021 5:30:18
 
estebanana

Posts: 7999
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: The Trump Nightmare is Over! (in reply to Richard Jernigan

When Arnold Schwarzenegger was debating Ariana Huffington during the campaign for governor of California that he eventually won-

She accused him of not paying his taxes and he responded with: “Ariana, we both know that you and your husband exploit loopholes in the tax code that I could drive my Hummer through, don’t give me that.”

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 12 2021 7:36:38
 
Piwin

Posts: 3164
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: The Trump Nightmare is Over! (in reply to estebanana

I watched Schwarzenegger's speech the other day, out of curiosity. Talk about culture shock...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 12 2021 9:08:29
 
estebanana

Posts: 7999
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: The Trump Nightmare is Over! (in reply to Piwin

I was amused when he brought out the Conan sword. When he was governor he used to call the democrats in the state legislature The Girly Men. It was pretty funny. He wasn’t a terrible governor.


On the tax topic, the person I referenced up thread is called Howard Jarvis. He architected the 1978 proposition 13 which changed the California constitution and tax code so corporate tax rates were decreased to next to nothing. Prior to Mr. Jarvis ( also known as greedy bastard) Corporate property taxes supported the California school system. He tore that to shreds and education plummeted, while corporate profits skyrocketed.

Was that fair? Now big tech rides along on the tradition of prop 13, schools hold bake sales to fund, and the boards if directors of tech firms make lots of money.
Last summer a campaign to reform prop 13 was put forward, but it didn’t do well in the November election. Better luck in the future. We’re going to reform prop 13 eventually, but in the mean time, buy those baked goods.

Shortly after the Jarvis initiative passed in California other states took up clone policies and decimated school revenue via Jarvis group think. Then employers bitched about the dearth educated applicants for jobs.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 12 2021 14:10:50
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3146
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: The Trump Nightmare is Over! (in reply to estebanana

quote:

So I agree that there is disturbance or social violence in both cases, but I draw a distinction between them because they are not morally equivalent. One side wants to bend history toward justice, while the other wants to bend it back toward the brutality of the post reconstruction laws that oppress non white Americans.


Stephen, I understand the distinction you are making, but my post above was not intended to compare and place into a moral hierarchy the motives driving those who participate in protests that descend into mob action. To take the examples I cited--the Trumpsters whose protest became an assault against the Capitol and the protests in Portland last summer that resulted in much mayhem and destruction--regarding the motives driving each, one can agree with one, the other, or neither. But that was not my point.

My point was how individuals within the mob become infected with "mob psychology," leading to big talk and acting "tough" because the mob provides cover for their actions. These individuals are essentially cowards, as it has been demonstrated time and again that without the protective cover provided by the mob, alone and facing even odds, their bravado and big talk vanishes. As I stated above, that applies to both the left and the right.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 12 2021 14:23:34
 
Mark2

Posts: 1588
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: The Trump Nightmare is Over! (in reply to estebanana

Geez, this is complete BS. Decreased to next to nothing? No, rates are based on the purchase price of the property, with 2% annual increases. That is for residential as well as commercial property owners. If you think that is next to nothing, I'd appreciate you sending me a check every December.

The proposition that failed would have raised commercial property rates by basing them on the current value of the property, which is absurd. It would mean that a mall, for example, whose owner bought 30-40 years ago, could see there PT multiply by several times.

Since commercial leases often include a clause raising rents when PT increases, all those businesses, be they mom and pops, or Safeway, would see huge rent increases. Guess what the next step would be? Raising prices on everything. You really think Safeway is going to eat that PT increase?


quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

I was amused when he brought out the Conan sword. When he was governor he used to call the democrats in the state legislature The Girly Men. It was pretty funny. He wasn’t a terrible governor.


On the tax topic, the person I referenced up thread is called Howard Jarvis. He architected the 1978 proposition 13 which changed the California constitution and tax code so corporate tax rates were decreased to next to nothing. Prior to Mr. Jarvis ( also known as greedy bastard) Corporate property taxes supported the California school system. He tore that to shreds and education plummeted, while corporate profits skyrocketed.

Was that fair? Now big tech rides along on the tradition of prop 13, schools hold bake sales to fund, and the boards if directors of tech firms make lots of money.
Last summer a campaign to reform prop 13 was put forward, but it didn’t do well in the November election. Better luck in the future. We’re going to reform prop 13 eventually, but in the mean time, buy those baked goods.

Shortly after the Jarvis initiative passed in California other states took up clone policies and decimated school revenue via Jarvis group think. Then employers bitched about the dearth educated applicants for jobs.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 12 2021 16:50:22
 
estebanana

Posts: 7999
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: The Trump Nightmare is Over! (in reply to Mark2

The reason the latest effort to reform prop 13 failed is because it was written unreasonably. But the fact remains that it needs to be reformed and that the original Jarvis proposition killed school funding. So no, not ****. It never should have happened.

In 1978 California had aerospace engineering corporations, the film industry and everything else. It was the fastest growing state economy and the property taxes were not unfair.

Not ****, truth.

—————-

Bill,

Yes I agree with you to a point, I think, as I illustrate with my personal story about the Occupy Wall st sticker on my truck and the people who were ready to surround my vehicle until they recognized a symbol that they aligned with. I agree that many of them work off group think and even indulge in what’s now called ‘virtue signaling’ by taking pictures of themselves being in a mob scene. I think we’re both annoyed and disgusted, in the case of the capitol building horrified. There are people who cannot really think for themselves and hide in the irrational actions of mob violence that they wouldn’t carry out on their own. All this is clear. I’m in agreement. I’m also taking it further and saying at least for myself there are important considerations of moral equivalence. And it’s my understanding that in general the spirit of the black protest was peaceful, unlike the mob that engulfed the capitol that was potentially murderous in s much worse way than we saw. I’m certain if they had found any opposition politicians who have been demonized by the far right media and trump that their lives would be on the line at the poor judgement of the mob.

I’m don’t feel the BLM protest was murderous in intent. This and other factors give me pause to consider that there are important equivalence values in play. But I’ll leave it that I do agree with your idea of mob mentality is created when cowards join forces for the wrong moral battles. I just reserve the intellectual space to weigh intent and histories arc by my own moral mapping.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 12 2021 18:14:46
 
Mark2

Posts: 1588
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: The Trump Nightmare is Over! (in reply to estebanana

Your truth maybe-are you personally subject to this tax? If you were you might not think current rates are "next to nothing"

I agree it will eventually pass, because many people think they can tax the "rich" without it affecting them, but that is a fallacy.



quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

The reason the latest effort to reform prop 13 failed is because it was written unreasonably. But the fact remains that it needs to be reformed and that the original Jarvis proposition killed school funding. So no, not ****. It never should have happened.

In 1978 California had aerospace engineering corporations, the film industry and everything else. It was the fastest growing state economy and the property taxes were not unfair.

Not ****, truth.

—————-

Bill,

Yes I agree with you to a point, I think, as I illustrate with my personal story about the Occupy Wall st sticker on my truck and the people who were ready to surround my vehicle until they recognized a symbol that they aligned with. I agree that many of them work off group think and even indulge in what’s now called ‘virtue signaling’ by taking pictures of themselves being in a mob scene. I think we’re both annoyed and disgusted, in the case of the capitol building horrified. There are people who cannot really think for themselves and hide in the irrational actions of mob violence that they wouldn’t carry out on their own. All this is clear. I’m in agreement. I’m also taking it further and saying at least for myself there are important considerations of moral equivalence. And it’s my understanding that in general the spirit of the black protest was peaceful, unlike the mob that engulfed the capitol that was potentially murderous in s much worse way than we saw. I’m certain if they had found any opposition politicians who have been demonized by the far right media and trump that their lives would be on the line at the poor judgement of the mob.

I’m don’t feel the BLM protest was murderous in intent. This and other factors give me pause to consider that there are important equivalence values in play. But I’ll leave it that I do agree with your idea of mob mentality is created when cowards join forces for the wrong moral battles. I just reserve the intellectual space to weigh intent and histories arc by my own moral mapping.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 12 2021 18:29:32
 
estebanana

Posts: 7999
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: The Trump Nightmare is Over! (in reply to Richard Jernigan

The nightmare does not feel over, not until January 20th after the inauguration is over and none of the new admin are harmed. I’m slightly worried we’ll have another incident perpetrated by Trump mobbers.
I don’t wake up feeling positive we’ve passed the trump nightmare, a big trouble is how many fools voted for him a second time. And what will he he do in the next 9 days? And what agitation will he take up when he’s a civilian? What actions will his mob try to take if the AG of New York Cyrus Vance charges him with crimes in Manhattan?

The mobs, the trump rabble keeps getting stoked with anger over false grievances they harbor. And they are false, these people are not more special than anyone else, they are just being coddled and manipulated by an extremely biased media environment. Plus most are low information media consumers.

What trump going to try to do with his band of suckers? Will he fizzle into the background noise, or continue to agitate at level that is a daily nightmare presence?

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 12 2021 18:35:04
 
estebanana

Posts: 7999
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: The Trump Nightmare is Over! (in reply to Mark2

I was there in 1978, I know. It devastated public education. This is a fact. Then other states followed with Jarvis plan clones and devastation continued.

It’s a fact.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 12 2021 18:37:41
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