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RE: Building two under influence of a 1973 Sobrinos de Esteso   You are logged in as Guest
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mark indigo

 

Posts: 3306
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to Stephen Eden

quote:

I had the pleasure of having a 72 Esteso in the workshop in January. I took top and back measurments as well as well strut heights and placements. I have just finished a run of 5 of them and am pretty pleased with the results. They definitely sound alot more modern than my Santos style but still have the flamenco edge.


Were they built to order? And if not, have you sold them all?!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 14 2020 21:43:52
 
Stephen Eden

 

Posts: 882
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to mark indigo

They were built to order I'm afraid. They will all end up fairly close to you though. Maybe I can ask one of the new owners to meet up for a go? One of them absolutely loves meeting new flamenco guitarists and even more loves meeting other Eden owners!

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Classical and Flamenco Guitars www.EdenGuitars.co.uk
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 14 2020 21:54:53
 
estebanana

Posts: 7999
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to mark indigo

Wanted to add that when I started building it was normal for a Blanca to be 660, but then a trend began for players to ask for shorter scales and I built them. Then as a way of building on spec for a wide audience of potential buyers I settled on 655 for a long time. Now I don’t have to consider that situation so much ( but I will build to a request of course) so I switched back to 660 as the regular scale. I’m considering making a new neck for the Blanca I’m building for myself right now and making it a 665 or 666
NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 14 2020 23:55:26
 
RobF

Posts: 951
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to estebanana

I drew a new, slightly smaller, body shape last fall which was specifically designed around 660mm for flamencos. I’ve made five guitars so far using that shape and it’s been working out really well. Two were only 655mm but they turned out just fine. It’s kind of funny, because my 650mm body shape is actually a bigger guitar. I like the smaller one better, though, maybe because it’s new.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2020 2:18:47
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3306
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to Stephen Eden

quote:

They were built to order I'm afraid.


Now I'm really intrigued! You had 5 customers who all knew you had a 1972 Conde Hermanos/Sobrinos de Esteso in your workshop and ordered copies?!

Let me guess.... are they all students of the same guitarist?

quote:

They will all end up fairly close to you though. Maybe I can ask one of the new owners to meet up for a go? One of them absolutely loves meeting new flamenco guitarists and even more loves meeting other Eden owners!


Also intrigued as to who and how close! If one of them is left-handed I might know him a bit already... but sure, I live in the middle of nowhere and my guitar buddy has been completely self-isolating since March and not playing much, so yes, put me in touch, give them my email.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2020 9:13:08
 
estebanana

Posts: 7999
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to mark indigo

Making bridges-

I go back and forth on how I make the saddle slot. For years I did it this way, making the slot by side plunging the router in and only routing where the slot is located. Then I changed and routed the slot the entire length of the bridge and cut away the part of the slot when shaping the wings, or arms of the bridge. Now I’ve changed back to only routing the slot location.

Funny stuff.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 18 2020 23:51:32
 
RobF

Posts: 951
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

I go back and forth on how I make the saddle slot.

I started out with plunging, too, then pretty quickly moved to routing full across. It now occurs to me that by plunging you’re only routing half the distance, so the bit should last twice as long. Bonus.

Have you ever made the bridge with a shorter plunge (less wide) and kept the saddle slot enclosed? The idea being that it adds strength, and you can also route a deeper slot. I did that once or twice but decided removing the saddle was too much a pain in the butt. Also, I tried the Gilbert style once, but with a saddle, which by design required plunging. I liked how it looked a lot, nice and gracefully sculpted, but I didn’t really buy into the rationale, so didn’t pursue it.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 19 2020 2:35:22
 
estebanana

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Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to mark indigo

The Gilbert design is deeply flawed, and stupid looking. His ideas were not that great because he didn’t end up being a major direction in terms of design. But what I object to most is that his aesthetic is so F-ing ugly, and Somogyi picked up his cheesiest mannerisms. The between the two them... anyway I’m deeply satisfied with myself for completely ignoring both of them when I lived in the Bay Area for 28 years. When I wake up a get coffee I’ll tell you a story about it..

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 19 2020 15:53:33
 
RobF

Posts: 951
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

But what I object to most is that his aesthetic is so F-ing ugly

I hear you on the stark aesthetic, and a lot of takes on the design seem to emphasize that. I liked how I did it, however. It was done more based on a memory of it than any kind of copy, and I wanted to try it. My take wasn't as industrial looking, I hope. It was only my third guitar, I spent a lot of time on that stupid bridge, lol.

Found the “D” string response a little lacking, though...



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 19 2020 16:31:19
 
ernandez R

Posts: 354
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to estebanana

Recall bumping into photos of the bridge and the aircraft structures geek in my liked the idea

Thinking it might have moved forward with a certain crowd if the lateral beams had been an X instead of parallel? <S/>

I just cheat, flip over the bridge blank and run through my table saw. I go even more ghetto and run three feet strips at a time. Of course on not using precious tone woods but some hickory. I ran a bunch of scrap from other projects and then squatted down on the concreat floor and tossed them on the ground listening to their tone to pick out the ones that sounded the best. Saw a Luither do this and it rang a bell... If I recall he was from Japan?

Rocking it in the shop, closed up another twenty three incher last night and shellacking three at a go, slotted four necks last night some time after 9:00pm and can't wait to get back in there this morning for a fret tapping party, a three hour PT routine before I can get out there though.

Photo is black walnut and a few wing ideas I tried: 14-17gm if I recall.

HR



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I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 19 2020 18:33:29
 
estebanana

Posts: 7999
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to RobF

You did a good job copying it.
When he spoke about what his concept of the faults with the Spanish bridge I thought he missed the entire point of the design. He said the way the wings attach to the tie block and saddle section was weak and flawed. But the flexibility and lightness of the transition from center area to wings is what makes the bridge work as a brace that moderates too stiffness. He invented something completely different, more like a Martin D-45 bridge and did not improve the Spanish bridge.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 20 2020 9:46:14
 
estebanana

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Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to mark indigo

I’m in the middle of it. I like to chunk them out with a chisel and get a rough weight.
Since I’m looking at Conde Sobrinos bridges, they seem to have high profile arc on the wing of the bridge. I’m going to worry about that, enough to get it.





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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 20 2020 13:25:40
 
RobF

Posts: 951
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

You did a good job copying it

Thanks. It was not as much a copy, per se, as an imperfect rendition of what my mind remembered to be the copy/permutation of the concept as done by my first teacher. I remember when I did it I struggled a bit but carried on, then went and visited my teacher and realized I hadn’t done a very accurate job copying his interpretation, to the point that I asked him to show me again how he did it and he kindly obliged by carving a couple in front of me. By then, it was apparent I had taken off a bit in my own direction, but I was too far along to stop so I just used what I had. It wasn’t an act of bravery or an assertion of creative license, as much as one of laziness and happenstance, as I had invested a lot of time in it, it was a nice piece of wood, and it hadn’t turned out too bad.

I don’t know if Gilbert built in the Spanish style or not, or whether he made the body and neck separately and then joined them with a dovetail or whatever, but his concept makes more sense with the latter method and doesn’t really marry into the Spanish method that well, I think. I didn’t build in the Spanish style until my fourth guitar, but had used the traditional bridge on my first (second being a steel string) and once I built one the Spanish way, it clicked and the practical aspects of the traditional bridge made a lot more sense to me, so I’ve been doing it that way ever since.

I like the idea of plunging the saddle slot, as it gives you total freedom on how you shape the wings. The straight through route can tie it up if it goes too deep because you have to carve under it for the wings. It can force carving a thinner wing than might be optimal.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 20 2020 13:43:20
 
RobF

Posts: 951
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

I’m in the middle of it. I like to chunk them out with a chisel and get a rough weight.

Lots of great information in those pictures. I’ve just learned something I want to try on my next batch, how you’re pre-bevelling the ends to give a witness for when the barrel is carved. Good stuff, love it!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 20 2020 13:50:38
 
estebanana

Posts: 7999
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to RobF

I don’t have anything against what he did, except that I’m not going to do it. I began making in the Bay Area and his reputation was big and he influenced several local makers who adopted his mannerisms. It always looked mechanistic both in approach and style, it was a an immediate turn off as soon as I saw guitars by Manuel de la Chica and Santos. When I studied classical guitar in high school the choice was get a Ramirez lower tier model, a Ramirez 1A or go to one of the famed and held in awe American makers. I couldn’t afford any of it, so I borrowed a friend’s Yamaha until she wanted it back. The other affordable resource were Japanese guitars that were copies of Madrid makers’ work. At least they looked like guitars.

As I think about it, since getting a Ramirez was expensive and getting top European guitars was difficult and meant a trip to Europe or New York, Chicago LA, the Japanese imports filled a niche that allowed many people to get started in classical guitar. If I wanted I could buy 1970’s Ramirez copies inexpensively here and sell them overseas, but gosh what a time waster. People still clamor for those things. They sound good and they actually look like and are built like guitars.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 20 2020 23:01:58
 
estebanana

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Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to mark indigo

I think he’ll be happy with this theme and variation on the rosette and tie block marquetry.
It’s taking a while to wrap this one up as I got an emergency restoration job and an order for an electric guitar that had to be finished in January... plodding on...


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 30 2020 18:46:38
 
estebanana

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Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to mark indigo

I started making these slide guitars out of old fish crates for fun about three years ago or more. Accidentally they caught on ( fish crate? Caught on- see what I did there?)

Anyway, they are played with a glass or metal slide and tuned in a G modal tuning, or whatever. I was entertaining myself, but I started getting orders, so I built them. Eventually the city advertised them as an Akune made product and I had to make them and get a cut of the money from the city. Part of the hometown tax program I mentioned. T

This is the last one I’m making for the city because they take too much time away from making classicals and flamenco guitars. I told them I’m done with it. Lotta great guitar makers had periods when they built products like ukulele or other funky stuff to make a living, I just didn’t think this would catch on. Honestly paid my rents off of these when things were lean a few times.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 30 2020 19:02:16
 
estebanana

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RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to mark indigo

This one with a P-90 absolutely screams, although the person wanted a cigar box, meh..





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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 30 2020 19:15:10
 
estebanana

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RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to mark indigo

Some from 2017-18





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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 30 2020 19:17:54
 
estebanana

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RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to mark indigo

The electric one is from 2020





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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 30 2020 19:19:42
 
estebanana

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Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to mark indigo

Accidental rent money -

A foro member I correspond with gave me a lot of moral support in my adjusting to culture shock. It’s a real thing and it’s difficult outside Britain or US, Canada, because most of us from those countries are familiar with immigrant stories and have systems that support people coming in from other cultures. This country isn’t well equipped to help outsiders settle and it’s sometimes raw. If you move to the US there are racist A/ holes and nativist bat guano heads to be sure, but eventually you become an American over time. American identity is a polymer made of lots of ingredients, we come from every part of the earth and meet in America to become one people, Americans. That’s our strongest attribute when it works.

Japan and China are both countries I’ve lived in, but will never ever be a part of. There is no step work to become Japanese, identity is locked into birth. Sure you can become a citizen if you learn to speak to a certain level and have a reason to stay, but I’m on a three residence which has to be updated when it expires. I might get lucky this summer and get the five year residence card, but things are tighter now. The Foro friend I write to helped me with some encouragement from time to time in how to cope with culture shock, and knowing that I’ll always be an insider living on the outside of the culture. I’m not Japanese and never will be, but in some strange way they found a place for me and made some room. The foro friend said this isn’t easy and you’re going to have to work at adapting. And that was some good support.
I live in the in between space of not being in the country I was born in, but not being in a place I can be reborn in as fully cultured accepted being. I’ll always stand apart in the way I speak, look and physically move. This is a really good lesson for everyone to learn. Most Americans will never get the chance to see life from the in between space, it’s easy to imagine, but the reality of it isn’t.


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 30 2020 19:37:00
 
RobF

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RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

Accidentally they caught on ( fish crate? Caught on- see what I did there?)...This is the last one I’m making for the city because they take too much time away from making classicals and flamenco guitars.

They caught on because they’re just too cool for school (s of fishes, hahaha). Seriously though, I hope you don’t shut down making them completely, they really are cool. One of these days I hope to get one from you.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 31 2020 1:58:09
 
ernandez R

Posts: 354
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to mark indigo

I just crashed... Think I've been in the shop for eight ten hours a day for the last couple weeks. **** it was good to get back to wood shavings sawdust and glue, the smell of shellac and rubbing and rubbing until your arms were sore, the a little more.
I walked out to the shop today and spun through once and back out walked out to the end of the driveway and looked down the street.
No were to go, no where safe anyway... What a phucshow!
I've always been good at keeping me head down buried in whatever project kept my hands and mind busy, what's that saying in Japan, the nail that sticks up gets hammered. Thinking I feel hammered by this pandemic, the social responsibility, my own susceptibility with damaged lungs, I don't even go to the post office cause I live in one of the low information anti science all about my freedom states. Lucky!
Picked up another Parlor guitar commission the other day, feels like your roe box guitars, guessing I want to master guitar building, and here I am making these "cute little guitars". Don't worry I'm laughing, laughing at myself and laughing with you.
Might not be any cultural experience not virtual in my lifetime, no trip to Spain to see if the dust in those Tellors is any different then in my shop, no trip to the east, to Japan the home of my Ex. Perhaps no one creative wants to be assimilated ?
We usually make our own traps don't we? Ok, I didn't ask that moose to knock me down and crush my foot so I was laid up for months but I sure play a lot better; find good in bad.
In the end I feel good when I don't have time to comment on forums. Means I'm being productive. So here I am picking up the pieces, reaching out to a community because... because... I don't know. Because I don't have anything to complain about?

HR

_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 31 2020 4:12:07
 
estebanana

Posts: 7999
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to RobF

I could also send you my kit version! 😆

Personally I love the ones that are acoustic with tin roofing for tops. They sound really spooky, and boxy in a ghosty way.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 31 2020 5:38:58
 
estebanana

Posts: 7999
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to ernandez R

quote:

o were to go, no where safe anyway... What a phucshow!
I've always been good at keeping me head down buried in whatever project kept my hands and mind busy, what's that saying in Japan, the nail that sticks up gets hammered. Thinking I feel hammered by this pandemic, the social responsibility, my own susceptibility with damaged lungs, I don't even go to the post office cause I live in one of the low information anti science all about my freedom states. Lucky!



The expression the nail that sticks up gets smashed down isn’t popular anymore, if it ever was. I’m hear that a lot from other Americans. But I’ve come to see it as a cultural double standard because we do the same thing to our kids, but emotionally. We tell boys not to cry. They don’t do that here and it’s quite common for grown men to cry at joyous emotional stuff like winning or losing a sumo match.

The PTA has gained a lot of power in Japanese public education, teachers are vigilant not to get on the wrong side of them, so much so that the ones who get hammered are the teachers. The joke among teachers is to stay clear of ‘monster parents’ what we’ve come to call ‘little league parents’ and helicopter parents. The kids grow in a more emotionally open state, but have a narrower career path than US kids because they still have to choose in the 8th grade if they will go through an academic program or a vocational technical program. Then spend the 9th grade preparing to go to that type of high school. It’s more like the US school system in the 50’s to 70’s in some ways.

But boys don’t get ridiculed if they cry because they missed a soccer goal, or hit one from 20 meters out. US patriarchy is emotionally repressive, Japanese patriarchal order isn’t like that, is surprisingly not emotionally repressed.

So who’s nailing down the nails? We both are to some extent.

But I’m with you, stay clear of crazy trumpers who think this pandemic stuff is a thing you can play around with.

When I was in little league baseball, one team manger worked at Lockheed, he was a bastard. And in the day we took his abuse because we didn’t know better.
He would line us up against the backstop behind the plate and stand out about 20 feet with a baseball in his hand and lecture us. If he saw anyone not giving him rapt attention, he’d throw the baseball at that kid as hard as he could without going into a pitchers stretch. He was a fat, racist, abusive jerk who was an aeronautical engineer.

His son was in the team, one day his son started bawling because he couldn’t perform as well as his dad wanted him to. The coach told him to shut up, stuff it down and be a man, or go home. I went to the same jr high as this kid. He started an informal club, non school sanctioned, called The Fourth Reich and they gave each other Nazi salutes and talked about how inferior the Jewish kids at school were. They were cruel and a petty white kid gang of cry babies who’s rich daddies emotionally damaged them. They all grew up to be trump lovin’ toady loud mouths on social media, who shout down ‘libtards’ ( guys like me basically) and think they are being kept from expressing their human rights by folks asking them to wear masks.

I could go on....

Be careful out there and don’t John Wayne around with Covid-

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 31 2020 8:52:42
 
ernandez R

Posts: 354
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to mark indigo

There was an NPR interview of Ayano Tsuji, sings and plays uku in a couple Miyazaki animations, and they talk about the nail thing. Guessing that’s where most in the US have heard of it?
Interesting tie block can’t wait to see it all strung up. I just did my first tie block detail myself last week. Was more worried I would get it on crooked cause it was a good mm wider all around so I could trim it flush so I didn’t have much to go on to keep it centered,”. It came out fine, did another two days ago. Both are simple paper strips down the middle of a strip of yellow teak I was gifted, was part of a shipping crate from India, it’s canary yellow, took a while to track down exactly what it was. Matching headstock veneer and butt detail too. Photos on my insta link below.
I have a kid helping in the shop now and he is building a classical, super smart kid but bad dyslexic. Working on strategies to help him do basic math fractions and dealing with a ruler sae and mm. If you recall a I’ve got it bad too...

HR

_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 1 2021 8:12:07
 
estebanana

Posts: 7999
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to mark indigo

I finished the bridge for the negra-
More later, but first~

MORE FISHBOX!!

Sideways I’ll fix it later







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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2021 4:21:20
 
estebanana

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Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to mark indigo

Back to business ~
I have some general observations about Faustino’s bridges or the bridges I associate with the Sobrinos of this period. I tried to get into the spirit of how they generally function. I’ll take some better photos later and explain what I mean. I’m interested in other makers opinions of the bridges they’ve looked at on Sobrinos guitars.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2021 4:25:31
 
ernandez R

Posts: 354
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Back to business ~
I have some general observations about Faustino’s bridges or the bridges I associate with the Sobrinos of this period. I tried to get into the spirit of how they generally function. I’ll take some better photos later and explain what I mean. I’m interested in other makers opinions of the bridges they’ve looked at on Sobrinos guitars.




Stephan,
I have no experience with ether but I've spent some time digging through the Courtnell book comparing foot prints etc as I ready myself for a pair each of Flamenco and Classical builds and considering what one needs for each. My main focus has been on selection pieces with less dampening and really keeping in mind that each piece might have a higher natural frequency but he piece I tested, purely by ear, had a much lower frequency, less dense, but had a solid sustain most of the others had not. Of course i am not using triditional bridge woods, I've used walnut, hickory, and oak. I also use oak for my fingerboard and cut up a stack of them after we did the bridges and spent some time grading each piece using the same criteria.

Do you have a drawing of the bridg or scetch with dimensions?

Anyway, looking forward to your explanation.

HR

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_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 9 2021 19:36:08
 
estebanana

Posts: 7999
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to ernandez R

Sorry for being slow, my car died for final time and shipping out the fishbox took my time.

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https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2021 4:59:52
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