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Goldwinghai

Posts: 198
Joined: Mar. 17 2015
From: Virginia USA

Recommendations on Flamenco songs. 

As part of the learning process, one of my teachers will teach teach me the language through the use of popular Spanish songs. However, I requested Flamenco songs. Not sure how this will work out. I would really appreciate your recommendations on several most common/popular songs each in Tango, Solea and Bulerias. YouTube links would be great.
Muchas gracias.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 7 2020 17:28:53
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12197
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Recommendations on Flamenco songs. (in reply to Goldwinghai

quote:

ORIGINAL: Goldwinghai

As part of the learning process, one of my teachers will teach teach me the language through the use of popular Spanish songs. However, I requested Flamenco songs. Not sure how this will work out. I would really appreciate your recommendations on several most common/popular songs each in Tango, Solea and Bulerias. YouTube links would be great.
Muchas gracias.


That would be the equivalent of learning Japanese language through haiku.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 8 2020 13:11:05
 
RobF

Posts: 749
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Recommendations on Flamenco songs. (in reply to Goldwinghai

To use a copla
To teach a foreign language
Is not effective.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 8 2020 14:24:58
 
Goldwinghai

Posts: 198
Joined: Mar. 17 2015
From: Virginia USA

RE: Recommendations on Flamenco songs. (in reply to RobF

Using songs is only a small part of the teaching/learning process. Some teachers also use games. My first teacher played the song Quizas Quizas Quizas at one of our sessions. I enjoyed the song and learned quite a few new words just from this song alone. With the flamenco songs, it may be completely different. I'd keep an open mind. I have grammar, general conversation, active listening covered with another teacher.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 8 2020 14:56:14
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3041
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Recommendations on Flamenco songs. (in reply to Goldwinghai

quote:

I have grammar, general conversation, active listening covered with another teacher.


As one who grew up with Spanish from a bilingual Anglo mother (who spent her first 16 years living in Mexico), studied and became proficient in German while in Germany with the US Air Force, and during a career with the US Foreign Service studied Malay and Indonesian at the Foreign Service Institute in preparation for assignments to US Embassies in Kuala Lumpur and Jakarta, I have a certain aptitude for foreign languages and enjoy learning them. I also have developed a pretty good idea of what works for me in attaining language proficiency.

I mention the above because I think you are wasting your time working with a language teacher who uses songs in language training. Stick with the grammar, conversation, (aural-oral), and vocabulary development. Sixty percent of Spanish is in the subjunctive mood, which we seldom use in English. Learn it well if you want to speak Spanish properly and with a degree of elegance. Good luck.

Bill

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With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 8 2020 16:26:42
 
edguerin

Posts: 1537
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Recommendations on Flamenco songs. (in reply to RobF

Copla in Cádiz
Light-footed Gypsies dancing
You won't ever learn

_____________________________

Ed

El aficionado solitario
Alemania
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 8 2020 17:57:41
 
RobF

Posts: 749
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Recommendations on Flamenco songs. (in reply to edguerin

I use WhatsApp now
To video call my friends.
That seems to work best.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 8 2020 18:04:19
 
Piwin

Posts: 2862
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Recommendations on Flamenco songs. (in reply to Goldwinghai

Those are senryu, not haiku. Noobs.

If you're looking for something popular in Spain in general, then it's going to be a pretty short list. Most of the songs popular enough to make it outside of flamenco circles are rumba, tango or buleria. Pretty much everyone would recognize songs like "Como el agua", "Volando voy" or "Soy gitano". Some older stuff from the rumba golden age like Peret or Escobar, but younger people wouldn't be really familiar with it. Then bands like Pata Negra and the like, "flamenco-adjacent" I guess? Anyway. I can't think of any solea that has that kind of recognition, and I doubt there are any.

If your teacher isn't into flamenco, it might be difficult for them to use flamenco as teaching material. Not just the subject matter and form, but even things like the way the words are vocalized can be pretty difficult to understand even for a Spanish native speaker. So it might be necessary to forget about popularity per se, and choose something based more on how straightforward the song is (I mean that in the sense that what you hear matches the words as written). Maybe some cuplé stuff, songs from other genres adapted to flamenco. Carmen Linares's version of "Quiero tu nombre olvidar" is pretty straightforward. There are a gazillion versions of "Procuro olvidarte" out there, which should also be fairly straightforward. More difficult but also good might be David Palomar's "Como Gazparrito" (tanguillos). It's fast, but language-wise your teacher could probably work with it.

Anyway, just a few off the top of my head. If you want suggestions based purely on how common/popular a flamenco song is, I can try to give more, but it's probably going to be something like "basically everything Camaron ever recorded".

On a sidenote, if you have any interest in Spanish poetry as study material, I highly recommend the singer Paco Ibanez. Straightforward singing that puts the words front and center, and great way to memorise some Spanish. "Paco Ibanez canta a los poetas andaluces" would be of particular relevance I suppose.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 8 2020 19:37:54
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12197
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Recommendations on Flamenco songs. (in reply to Piwin

quote:

Those are senryu, not haiku. Noobs.


Nobody claimed those were haiku. The humor of the haiku-like senryu is an appropriate response to my analogy.

I would add, now learning singing techniques, splatting vowels is avoided, to the point of vowel modification when singing, to make words more singable. No good for learning ow to speak.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 8 2020 21:33:34
 
RobF

Posts: 749
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Recommendations on Flamenco songs. (in reply to Piwin

The poets of Madrid
Fear the thundering rage of
The pirate Panda.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 9 2020 0:04:26
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 2929
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Recommendations on Flamenco songs. (in reply to Goldwinghai

I assume you're not looking to pick up a strong andalú accent?

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 9 2020 0:17:13
 
RobF

Posts: 749
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Recommendations on Flamenco songs. (in reply to Goldwinghai

I think a possible negative with learning a language from older song forms is the danger of coming across as antiquated or stilted in aspects your speech. Similarly, learning colloquialisms from modern pop might put you in the position of sounding silly, or worse, inappropriate. I think it’s safer to stick with a pure interpretation of a language until you have a fairly fluent handle on it.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 9 2020 0:35:28
 
Goldwinghai

Posts: 198
Joined: Mar. 17 2015
From: Virginia USA

RE: Recommendations on Flamenco songs. (in reply to Richard Jernigan

I don’t know about the accent but they already have me learn to pronounce c or z in certain words (like cervezas, zapateado) as th instead of s sound.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 9 2020 1:05:05
 
RobF

Posts: 749
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Recommendations on Flamenco songs. (in reply to Goldwinghai

I do a lot of video calls with a friend of mine in Granada. I try to learn at least five Spanish words a day and practice at home, but our conversations are really what’s useful. Thing is, he’s gitano and apparently has an accent and manner of speaking that even other Spanish people have told me they can struggle with. So, when I go to Madrid, I’m pretty well lost.

But I say “por supuesto” when I want to say “of course”. He thinks that’s hilarious. I can’t say it without him doubling over in laughter. What’s even worse, he’s started imitating me. And saying it back in conversations while trying to hide his mirth. I have no idea. Maybe some Spanish comedian says it, I don’t know.

At this point, I just say “Claaaa rowwww, clarooookaysiiii” like the rest of them, but I’d sure like to know what it is about “por supuesto” that’s so frikken’ funny.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 9 2020 1:23:19
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12197
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Recommendations on Flamenco songs. (in reply to Goldwinghai

quote:

ORIGINAL: Goldwinghai

I don’t know about the accent but they already have me learn to pronounce c or z in certain words (like cervezas, zapateado) as th instead of s sound.


Paco de luthia

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 9 2020 3:23:10
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 2929
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Recommendations on Flamenco songs. (in reply to Goldwinghai

quote:

ORIGINAL: Goldwinghai
I don’t know about the accent but they already have me learn to pronounce c or z in certain words (like cervezas, zapateado) as th instead of s sound.


Last few times I have been to Andalucia it has seemed that people there speak with the "theta" more than they used to 50 years ago.

The "andalú"--castillian "andalúz"--accent is at least as strong as any English accent in the USA.

I take the liberty of repeating myself:

At a hot springs resort in Japan, Larisa and I, an Australian couple and an Englishman were the only guests for dinner, in the large dining room. We all sat at the same table. The Australian man was a medical student. He and his wife had relatively mild Australian accents. The Englishman's Lancashire accent was so thick I could barely make out what he was saying--and I've been speaking English for a long time, a fair amount of it in England.

When I asked the Englishman his occupation, he said he taught English in Tokyo. It was all I could do to keep a straight face while I pictured a group of Japanese engineers unpacking their laptops at a meeting in Silicon Valley, then breaking out in fluent Lanky.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 9 2020 3:45:17
 
Piwin

Posts: 2862
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Recommendations on Flamenco songs. (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Nobody claimed those were haiku. The humor of the haiku-like senryu is an appropriate response to my analogy.


that was a joke.

This, however, isn't: could you all take a few minutes and walk down from that self-congratulatory Dunning-Krueger hill of "I have some thoughts about language learning and I once read an article about it in the news" and just give the poor guy some damn suggestions already? Seriously, what is it you guys are missing about his request? Why is it that you'll spend hours answering the same dumb questions from the same (insert derogatory epithet of choice) but not give a few simple suggestions to a guy who's been nothing but a thoughtful and intelligent contributor to the foro?

Seriously, they'll probably do some fill-in-the-blanks exercices to build comprehension skills and vocabulary. They might zoom in on a particular grammar point that pops up in the song. That's it. They're not going to do a spectograph analysis of the pitch of vowels after voiced and devoiced consonants, or spend 20 hours watching a slow-mo of the singer's mouth to locate the exact point of contact between the tongue and the palate when he uses the letter "l", or go through archives to find out how tall the guy is and whether that has an impact on vocal placement.

I just figured it would be easier to work with songs where the oral version is close to the written text. Beyond that, there's no reason he should be stuck with my sh1tty suggestions when there are knowledgeable people around. He'll send it to his teacher and the teacher will decide whether he can use it as teaching material or not.

@Goldwinghai To give you an example of what I mean by cuplé stuff being perhaps better material. Compare these two by just trying to follow along with the written text (just the beginning):


Quiero tu nombre olvidar
olvidar tu nombre
pero es inutil intento
pues sin mi consentimiento
lo pronuncio al despertar

Quiero tu nombre olvidar
pero es inutil intento
porque me lo silva el viento
y lo susurra el mar
quiero tu nombre alejar
de mi pensamiento

Quisiera por un momento nada mas
echar tu nombre al olvido
ignorar tambien tu apellido y ademas
el dia de tu nacimiento



Por no darte explicaciones
que yo me pongo con mis pesares
y hablo solita por los rincones
Duermete Curro mio
de mis entrañas
que tu eres lo mas bonito
que hay en España

Duermete gitanito
rey de los soles
que yo te voy a hacer una cunita
de caracoles

Pañolitos de nieve
lazos de seda

Same singer, and she's overall pretty easy to understand. But in the first there's really nothing at all that doesn't match with the written text. In the second there are parts where it doesn't really line up. For instance the "rey de los soles que yo te voy a hacer una cunita" isn't easy at all to make out without the written text.

Anyway, I forgot to give youtube links to the things I mentioned:




(or of course Kiko Veneno's, which might be clearer to understand)










or


So those are the things I think of as having popularity in general, outside of flamenco circles.

Carmen Linares I posted above, and:



And since I mentioned him even though it's not flamenco, here's an example of an Andalusian poem put into song by Paco Ibanez:



Anyway, and if you meant popular just in the sense that they're common in flamenco circles, then there are a bunch of suggestions, more aligned with the palos you requested, but also more difficult to work with for language-learning purposes. But I'm happy to make suggestions if that's what you want to try. Or better yet, maybe others will realize that you got their point that they were advising against it and now pitch in some better suggestions than what I have.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 9 2020 7:37:27
 
Escribano

Posts: 6046
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: Italy

RE: Recommendations on Flamenco songs. (in reply to RobF

quote:

At this point, I just say “Claaaa rowwww, clarooookaysiiii” like the rest of them, but I’d sure like to know what it is about “por supuesto” that’s so frikken’ funny.


I don't know why it's funny but in Granada they do say "claro" a lot more often

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 9 2020 7:52:19
 
Escribano

Posts: 6046
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: Italy

RE: Recommendations on Flamenco songs. (in reply to Goldwinghai

quote:

I don’t know about the accent but they already have me learn to pronounce c or z in certain words (like cervezas, zapateado) as th instead of s sound.


That's standard Spanish Spanish. Mexican Spanish does not do this and is easier to learn and speak. In Andalucía, they drop their s's and t's and have a very soft d. Also, don't forget the b for v

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Foro Flamenco founder and Admin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 9 2020 7:55:50
 
Piwin

Posts: 2862
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Recommendations on Flamenco songs. (in reply to Escribano

Dunno but there might be a slight difference in register. From a stackexchange thread on that question:

"Claro and por supuesto are synonyms, but por supuesto is a little more formal.

Imagine the Pope is at your home and asks for permission to use the bathroom. You would not say ¡claro!, you would say ¡por supuesto!
Por supuesto is “of course”. Claro could be translated as “sure”."

So it might just sound a bit pompous to Rob's friend.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 9 2020 8:02:51
 
RobF

Posts: 749
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Recommendations on Flamenco songs. (in reply to Piwin

Piwin is real mad
Because I wrote stupid poems
Instead of helping.

Sorry. I intended no disrespect to Goldwinghai. I make no claims on being a language learning expert, I’m only a student, too. But, I really do think what his teacher wants to do is not a great idea.

There is (or was) a Spanish series on Netflix called ‘El Ministerio del Tiempo’, which is a very entertaining show that uses time travel as it’s premise. On each episode they travel to a different century and protect the integrity of Spanish history. The main characters all come from different eras and speak with the mannerisms and idioms of their time. There’s one character who is from medieval times that they are always correcting to modernize his speech. But, to me, as a student of Spanish, nothing anyone says seems out of the ordinary. It all sounds pretty much the same to me, regardless of era, the subtleties are lost on me.

This may be Dunning-Krueger at work but it seems fairly obvious, to me at least, that until someone’s proficiency is sufficient to distinguish such differences, it may safer to stick with using a fairly neutral form of the language. You don’t want to burst into a café and order your cerveza from the fair damsel at the bar with a figurative bow and flourish, any more than you want to sound like a Spanish version of James Cagney or Humphrey Bogart while ordering from the barkeep, or a Snoop Dogg looking for a blunt. You just want to order a beer.

I’ve also read that it’s best not to mix regional or national styles when learning to speak a language. The problem with that is, until one achieves some level of proficiency it’s pretty well impossible to know what those styles are, or to be able to distinguish them when you hear them. The only way to avoid the pitfall is by playing it relatively safe until you have a handle on what’s going on.

On the other hand, I’ve been told that as long as you’re attempting to communicate then it doesn’t really matter how awkward you are, as the overwhelming majority of people you will encounter will be happy to accommodate you and try to meet you halfway. That’s certainly been my experience. I’m still terrible at Spanish, but I work hard at improving and nobody’s ever belittled me for it. I think, even in this case, it’s still better to keep it simple rather than confuse matters with too many colloquialisms, as I’m not sure there’s any real advantage to appearing to be more proficient at something than you actually are, and there is the danger that you might whip out some expression that offends someone. It may be a two way street, but the onus is on the student to watch where they’re going.

I have many friends who have English as a second or third language who speak in a much more clear and concise manner than a lot of the native speakers I know. It doesn’t sound stiff to me, they just sound smart and eloquent. No harm in that, I think.

At any rate, my apologies to Goldwinghai if I’ve offended in any manner. It certainly wasn’t my intent. I don’t really have much more to contribute here save crappy poetry so I’ll bow out of this one.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 9 2020 9:46:09
 
Escribano

Posts: 6046
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: Italy

RE: Recommendations on Flamenco songs. (in reply to Piwin

quote:

"Claro and por supuesto are synonyms, but por supuesto is a little more formal.


Yep, and the people I knocked about with were definitely not formal

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 9 2020 10:06:20
 
Piwin

Posts: 2862
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Recommendations on Flamenco songs. (in reply to RobF

No I'm not angry
I'm just grumpy this morning
Need lots more coffee

I think it's perfectly fine to point out that it may not be a good idea. But I don't see why that prevents people from making song suggestions if he wants to try it.

Some of the points you made are perfectly valid for a self-taught student who is very heavily focused on one type of content. But that's not Goldwinghai's situation. He has teachers and he has said that the use of song is only a small part of the program. In that situation, I don't see any problem at all with using material from different forms of Spanish.

As far as formal education goes, I learned Spanish mostly at the university of Salamanca. Songs of a wide variety of origins were regularly used in class for various exercises. Yet I didn't pick up a Columbian accent because we used some songs from Columbia. The teachers always made sure to explain what was what. What they teach in Salamanca is as close to the national standard as you're going to get. It's also where they prepare the DELE tests. Outside of class, I did pick up some idiosyncracies from the area, like a very strong sibilant "s" when the "s" is at the start of a syllable. Even now people in Madrid tend to "locate" me as coming from the West because of that (it's also common in Avila, Badajoz and Caceres). The teachers taught standard Castilian pronunciation, and they did their job by pointing out to me that I was using a Salmantino pronunciation, so it was a conscious choice on my part to adopt the local pronunciation instead of the national standard.

In the end, the point of not mixing different regional variations is about output, not about input. It's about not ending up speaking some weird mix of bits and pieces picked up from different regional pronunciations without even realizing it. It's not about shutting yourself off from those regional variations and not learning how to understand them. The student doesn't have to be proficient enough to be able to make those distinctions on his own, as long as the teacher does it for him and explains what is regional, what is standard, why he should use X and not Y, etc.

Also, no media content is perfectly aligned with everyday colloquial usage. If there was indeed a risk that exposure to different forms of the language would somehow make the student speak in a "weird" way, then teachers should not use any books, any radio or any television/film, which all carry a certain degree of pretence in the forms of speech they use (as does anything performative).

The teacher may very well end up saying that this isn't good material to work with. But best they make that decision together instead of us pre-empting the whole thing here. But geez, you guys really think that if a teacher sometimes uses haiku in Japanese class as a basis for learning some vocabulary, grammar points, etc. there's going to be an epidemic of white dudes showing up at the bar asking for a beer in 5-7-5 mora verse? Come on now...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 9 2020 11:02:41
 
RobF

Posts: 749
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Recommendations on Flamenco songs. (in reply to Piwin

You are right. I was talking more about output than input. And you are being grumpy. I just wanted to write some poems.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 9 2020 11:46:29
 
Piwin

Posts: 2862
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Recommendations on Flamenco songs. (in reply to RobF

There's only one way
to resolve our differences:
let's blame Goldwinghai

Blame it all on him
on his innocent shoulders
the scapegoat we need

He started the thread
clearly this is all his fault
what the hell hombre?!

Don't you know better
than to ask for suggestions
here on this foro?

Look at what you did
You even made RobF cry
I hope you're happy



_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 9 2020 12:07:47
 
RobF

Posts: 749
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Recommendations on Flamenco songs. (in reply to Piwin

Who the heck is blaming Hai?

Please don’t put that onto me. I’m not crying. I apologized because I was accused of some perceived insensitivity, even though I don’t think people should feel obliged to support something they don’t agree with. I studied Spanish in Spain, too, I can’t afford personal instruction here in my own country, so I’ve continued studying on my own and have regular conversations with my friends there, which helps. But, of the teachers I had in Spain, only half used methods that I felt were effective, a couple used methods that would get you fired in Canada, they were so far out of acceptable bounds.

I said I intended no offence to Hai, and I meant it. Maybe you should climb off your high-horse for a minute. Geez.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 9 2020 12:22:35
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12197
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Recommendations on Flamenco songs. (in reply to Piwin

quote:

and just give the poor guy some damn suggestions already? Seriously, what is it you guys are missing about his request?


Pretty much wont achieve his goal, but since you bullied us... Norman’s site has words and the actual audio examples...select solea or siguiriyas and have at it.

www.canteytoque.es

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 9 2020 14:13:20
 
Piwin

Posts: 2862
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Recommendations on Flamenco songs. (in reply to RobF

Hmm. Looks like the tone of those haiku got distorted along the way and you received a completely different message from what was intended. I was just joking around with the clearly absurd idea of people derailing the thread (all of us, myself included) and then ganging up on the OP and blaming the derailment on him. Second degree man... Oh anyway, if a joke didn't get through, there's no point in trying to explain it. But I apologize. It wasn't intended at all the way you took it.

Though I suppose the communication breakdown started way earlier than that if you think I was accusing you of insensitivity. Just, well, put it this way: if I had posted a question like this, I wouldn't be offended at all by any of the responses here. I might however be disappointed that I didn't get any song recommendations and instead got a bunch of flamenco players/luthiers opining about teaching and linguistics. That's all. Happens all the time on this foro. You ask for rumba backing tracks and instead you get a big debate about fakemenco, etc. It's comical, and sometimes frustrating.

People shouldn't feel obliged to support something they don't agree with. Fair enough. But if the reason they don't agree with it is completely incorrect, then I'll point it out. Hence the Dunning-Krueger comment. Thing is, if it's about linguistic and language acquisition/learning, that's my home turf, so I'll sit tight on my high-horse, and if you want to come at me there, you best come equipped, and come at me hard.

The opinions about the woes of exposure to regional variation are just derived from personal impressions and unexamined tropes. They are not supported by the scientific literature, which tends to point in the opposite direction, with evidence of higher comprehension skills among learners that are exposed early on and explicitly to such variations.

The same is true for using song to learn a foreign language. When I see Ricardo say that he's observed some aspect of singing technique and concluded that song is "no good for learning how to speak", I have to invoke Dunning-Krueger (since I'm such a bully lol). Singing (as opposed to just listening to song) has been repeatedly shown to improve...wait for it...pronunciation in foreign language learners. If that doesn't square with an observation he's made about singing technique, tough luck. The improved pronunciation has been observed time and again in the framework of careful scientific studies, not just derived from what seems commonsensical to someone just learning how to sing.

As far as listening to music goes, there is ample evidence that classrooms that use song perform better on a number of metrics than classrooms that don't (Goldwinghai's teacher isn't doing this for no reason. Also true for classes that use visual aids, which have also been shown to improve performance on certain metrics). There is however still a lot of open questions as to why that is (i.e. is it just because using song tends to energize the students and make them more attentive? Or is there something going on at a physiological level in each student? etc.). If there is a reason why flamenco wouldn't work at all for language learning, as so many of you are convinced, it would have to be for entirely different reasons than 1. the fact that it's regional, and 2. the fact that it's music. Me, I'm worried about the more unique vocalizations, melisma, etc. which might be an obstacle, much more so than in songs where the text is delivered in a more straightforward manner. I'm also worried about how well the teacher grasps the regionalisms (which has an obvious impact on his ability, or lack thereof, to teach them explicitly). But it's worth a shot.

Anyway, I gave my crappy recommendations and equally crappy opinions about language learning, so nothing more for me to add here.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 9 2020 14:34:01
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 648
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Recommendations on Flamenco songs. (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

The Englishman's Lancashire accent was so thick I could barely make out what he was saying--and I've been speaking English for a long time, a fair amount of it in England.

When I asked the Englishman his occupation, he said he taught English in Tokyo. It was all I could do to keep a straight face while I pictured a group of Japanese engineers unpacking their laptops at a meeting in Silicon Valley, then breaking out in fluent Lanky.

I bet this englishman can speak english when in teaching mode. I know lots of people with thick accent can hide their accent if needed.

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Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 9 2020 14:36:40
 
Piwin

Posts: 2862
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Recommendations on Flamenco songs. (in reply to Ricardo

If you want to tell me to shove off, just say that. But don't set up Goldwinghai for failure. "Do you have recommendations for flamenco pieces I can use to learn Spanish?" "Yeah sure, here's a site with a bunch of older recordings and please choose from the two palos that are the most difficult to use for a beginner in the language." That's just nasty man.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 9 2020 14:41:41
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