Piwin -> RE: Recommendations on Flamenco songs. (Sep. 9 2020 14:34:01)
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Hmm. Looks like the tone of those haiku got distorted along the way and you received a completely different message from what was intended. I was just joking around with the clearly absurd idea of people derailing the thread (all of us, myself included) and then ganging up on the OP and blaming the derailment on him. Second degree man... Oh anyway, if a joke didn't get through, there's no point in trying to explain it. But I apologize. It wasn't intended at all the way you took it. Though I suppose the communication breakdown started way earlier than that if you think I was accusing you of insensitivity. Just, well, put it this way: if I had posted a question like this, I wouldn't be offended at all by any of the responses here. I might however be disappointed that I didn't get any song recommendations and instead got a bunch of flamenco players/luthiers opining about teaching and linguistics. That's all. Happens all the time on this foro. You ask for rumba backing tracks and instead you get a big debate about fakemenco, etc. It's comical, and sometimes frustrating. People shouldn't feel obliged to support something they don't agree with. Fair enough. But if the reason they don't agree with it is completely incorrect, then I'll point it out. Hence the Dunning-Krueger comment. Thing is, if it's about linguistic and language acquisition/learning, that's my home turf, so I'll sit tight on my high-horse, and if you want to come at me there, you best come equipped, and come at me hard. The opinions about the woes of exposure to regional variation are just derived from personal impressions and unexamined tropes. They are not supported by the scientific literature, which tends to point in the opposite direction, with evidence of higher comprehension skills among learners that are exposed early on and explicitly to such variations. The same is true for using song to learn a foreign language. When I see Ricardo say that he's observed some aspect of singing technique and concluded that song is "no good for learning how to speak", I have to invoke Dunning-Krueger (since I'm such a bully lol). Singing (as opposed to just listening to song) has been repeatedly shown to improve...wait for it...pronunciation in foreign language learners. If that doesn't square with an observation he's made about singing technique, tough luck. The improved pronunciation has been observed time and again in the framework of careful scientific studies, not just derived from what seems commonsensical to someone just learning how to sing. As far as listening to music goes, there is ample evidence that classrooms that use song perform better on a number of metrics than classrooms that don't (Goldwinghai's teacher isn't doing this for no reason. Also true for classes that use visual aids, which have also been shown to improve performance on certain metrics). There is however still a lot of open questions as to why that is (i.e. is it just because using song tends to energize the students and make them more attentive? Or is there something going on at a physiological level in each student? etc.). If there is a reason why flamenco wouldn't work at all for language learning, as so many of you are convinced, it would have to be for entirely different reasons than 1. the fact that it's regional, and 2. the fact that it's music. Me, I'm worried about the more unique vocalizations, melisma, etc. which might be an obstacle, much more so than in songs where the text is delivered in a more straightforward manner. I'm also worried about how well the teacher grasps the regionalisms (which has an obvious impact on his ability, or lack thereof, to teach them explicitly). But it's worth a shot. Anyway, I gave my crappy recommendations and equally crappy opinions about language learning, so nothing more for me to add here.
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