Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
RE: Looking for good book on music t... (in reply to RobF)
quote:
To put the thread back on track...I was thinking about purchasing a PDF copy, too. Have you had enough time with it to form any opinions?
Here's the table of contents for you.
I haven't started reading the book in detail yet, but at first scan it is worth it to me just for the music theory chapter, though there are many other useful (to me) chapters - e.g. chapters 7-14.
My first impression is that this was written by a very thoughtful person who took great care in laying out the information he wanted to convey, and who possesses deep insight into the subject matter.
And at $14 US for the pdf it is a steal, IMO.
Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px
RE: Looking for good book on music t... (in reply to kitarist)
Thanks.
I attempted the purchase but his checkout process locks out Canadian customers by forcing them to try to choose their province from an empty pull down menu and then insisting that the field be filled. I might send him a mail and ask for help. They accept PayPal so I don’t understand why they need the fields to be filled, or for that matter why they require you become a registered user.
When a checkout becomes that difficult I start to worry that the file transfer might also be problematic, but it seems to have worked out OK for you. From the TOC, it looks like a worthwhile purchase.
RE: Looking for good book on music t... (in reply to RobF)
quote:
heckout process locks out Canadian customers by forcing them to try to choose their province from an empty pull down menu and then insisting that the field be filled.
Yes there is a software bug. I got around it (since it is a pdf purchase, address does not matter) by keeping the country as USA, for state I chose California and entered the city, Canadian province and country in the city field, and the Canadian postal code in the ZIP code field. It worked.
You will get a link to your pdf immediately after paying.
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Looking for good book on music t... (in reply to kitarist)
quote:
I haven't started reading the book in detail yet, but at first scan it is worth it to me just for the music theory chapter, though there are many other useful (to me) chapters - e.g. chapters 7-14.
My first impression is that this was written by a very thoughtful person who took great care in laying out the information he wanted to convey, and who possesses deep insight into the subject matter.
Yes, he’s a very knowledgeable guy and great communicator. He still teaches the same summer class despite having to travel from Colorado to Virginia. Some of my classmates have re connected via Facebook... uncanny how one guy ended up just like me marrying a Latina and doing gigs singing in Spanish (he was a German exchange student that we at first made fun of cuz he liked segovia haha! But he became one of my best friends in the class). Pure coincidence but for sure the teacher made a lasting impression ... one of only a few I can say that about. Anyway, he was actually my father’s classical guitar student (Another coincidence) and mentions him at least once. He also mentions his own students and I would be the Flamenco guy. Ironic I learned probably more important things from him than my own dad
So if anything pops up you want to discuss from his book please let me know... I might even have some fun back stories. A lot of stuff happened during those brief summer sessions!
RE: Looking for good book on music t... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
Ironic I learned probably more important things from him than my own dad
Is he the guy who said Practice makes permanent, not perfect? Once understood this is pretty good advice. Whoever said it he got the idea from the concept of beginner's mind.
RE: Looking for good book on music t... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
So if anything pops up you want to discuss from his book please let me know... I might even have some fun back stories. A lot of stuff happened during those brief summer sessions!
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Looking for good book on music t... (in reply to mt1007)
Ok man, I am totally cool with whatever scale patterns a student knows and uses. Everything helps and no matter what we learn or what level, we all fall back on the personally comfortable situations on the fingerboard....especially those of us that want to improvise and compose stuff. I don’t only play 3 note per string patterns in a physical sense. And I also accept that learning 7 different patterns seems daunting when another teacher offers up the attractive situation of 3 patterns only might achieve the same thing. So what I get out of the 3 nps scales is this...it’s not like an option or a tool that one can use or not based on taste. It’s basically the math of the fingerboard...how it is geometrically laid out.
In the same way you realize the circle of 5ths is more than a memorization tool, but rather, a picture of the entire scope of any and all music (harmonically and melodically speaking), allowed by equal temperament. That’s what the 3 note patterns are, the maximum number of notes you can visualize in a “position” on the fingerboard. Anytime you add a 4th note or play only 2 on a string, you are cheating yourself out of seeing an inherent logic of the layout and scope of the available key in the locality, and are in actuality “shifting” to an adjacent position of the key. And in almost all cases of doing that, it’s because it is more “comfortable” on the left hand. In a sense a cheat for technical reasons that robs your minds eye of the complete picture. The equivalent cheat on the circle of 5ths is enharmonic misspellings for whatever reason...defeating the logic of the thing.
And this logic is of the same type of minor importance in practice. So it’s about how complete of a picture about music do you really want to have. “I call it A#, you can call it Bb if you want, it’s all the same.” No it’s not the same, there is a reason behind it in context, abstract or not it’s a real thing. So when you play F# aeolian there and only play E and F# on the D string and reach back for G#...to me I “see” it as you shifting back rather than completing the scale which would be the G# on the 6th fret...and in doing so, robbed yourself of the available C# on the 3rd string relative to the F# you started with. And in the identical postion you claim it as A major starting from pinky. But they are the exact same pattern and postion. You only robbed yourself of the F# and G# below by skipping them and calling the pinky the starting place. And sure enough (sorry to pick on you but you filmed it), at one point there (and I know you were multitasking) you felt momentarily confused about the D note (you hit D# ooops)...and it was not surprising cuz in my mind it was normal to have that ambiguity because it’s the exact spot where you are shifting around and missing the picture. The D is open in that new position, but you finally found it by reverting back to the D with pinky on 5th string. Trust me, I’ve been through all this argument before, and it’s hanging EVERYBODY up.
Next you asked about modal modulation...and you specifically ask I think, about going from A Ionian to A aeolian to A phrygian. Well if you go back, I recommend to start with C and use the circle of 5ths. That IS modal modulation...but not the 3 “key basis” modes....the actual LIGHT TO DARK modes or vice versa...the way actual music lays out anyway. Lets take the ONE 3 note pattern you clearly know well...Ionian. You demoed it in A major, so start there. Use the circle of 5th and head in some direction. To the the right (3#->4#) is going to A lydian. All you have to do is change your D note to D#. Don’t shift or change anything you did with Ionian, only move your D notes up a fret. 5-6 on A string, 7-8 on G, and 10-11 on E. Done. And you are already now DONE going that direction around the wheel because after lydian you would have to alter your starting note and change the Name of A to A# and bust the wheel logic. So go backwards.
A Ionian becomes A mixolydian. Change your G# to G nat. 6-5 on D, 9-8 on B. Done. Next A dorian. Change your C# to C from what you just played. Next A aeolian, F# to F. A phrygian B to Bb. A loc your E to Eb. And you are done and you’ve learned all 7 in one position.
Now to do the thing you asked Ionian->Aeolian->phrygian specifically requires multiple note changes, not just one. But you a can see how it’s all available, comfortable or not, in one position. But if you did the exercise I laid out, it’s not just one note change each time you add or subtract an accidental, but specifically the awkward tritone between strings sliding chromatically (up for sharps, down for flats). (Edit: actually it’s a big skip from Ionian to aeolian, but aeolian to phrygian is part of exercise above, only one note changes). The tritone is important because its the thing YOU and everybody keeps avoiding on adjacent strings (remember I said play G# on D string, but then your D note on 5th fret feels weird, so you’ve moved G# back to 3rd string). That is the other beautiful advantage of visualizing the 3 nps patterns...you can see where that necessary pesky tritone is and adjust it when it’s time to modulate.
Last issue was the “not a great sub” but YOU like it. Ok, I am glad you like it and use it. What I mean is it is a weak sub for a strong cadence. The F# instead of E is simply outlining the upper structure of E9 in your example, the missing E just makes the thing weak. Perhaps it’s exotic and that weaker sound is what you are after, cool. I am just pointing out there is a better option. Namely the fully diminished7. That thing with the F nat pulling, is both easier to do physically do to the symmetry, and stronger as a cadence. Bach and friends proved that already, it’s not much to argue about. But in terms of taste, if you like it, that’s totally cool. Some folks love the minor V to i resolution, anything can be cool if you know what you are doing for sure.
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Looking for good book on music t... (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
Is he the guy who said Practice makes permanent, not perfect?
Actually no, that was my 6th grade drum teacher. However, in this book he does make a similar statement...I think it was “perfect practice makes perfect” or some variant of the basic idea. And he does talk about the beginners mind as well.
RE: Looking for good book on music t... (in reply to Ricardo)
yo Ricardo,
thanks for the comments, i ain't tripping nor do i feel like your picking on me man. yeah semantics, mistakes etc is what happens when recording and thinking and playing at the same time. i get you man, with the 3 notes per string approach, the way the strings are tuned in 4ths plus that 3rd a$$hole string with a M3 tuning well i see the advantage of 3 notes per string. ill check out the all things you wrote on guitar, learning is never ending. i agree that learning the 7 modes along with having 3 different patterns for each sucks. for sure a full diminished chord makes for a good dom sub i was just keeping it to the 7th for now in this subject. dimished chords are another world and a can of worms onto themselves but i thank Bach for them man, they truly are bad ass. yo by the way i was talking to my boy Gerardo a cajonero here in LA says he knows you man. says you're cool funny cat. so if you are ever out here lets grab a drink. we can hang or something.
RE: Looking for good book on music t... (in reply to Ricardo)
What do you think about movable do solfege for learning the fingerboard and improvisation, still with three notes per string? It may seem like you are losing the relationships between different keys, but can't we compensate it with studying the scale with si-flat, (and maybe the scale with fa-sharp)? If you learn the positions through movable do, than it looks pointless to go around circle of fifths, chromatic may be better, is it right?
In general what I am after is to understand what to think during improvisation, should we think note names like A,B,C, (is it possible to do this efficiently in all keys?), or would it be better through movable solfege? Or maybe not think note names at all and it is just finger-ear thing?
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Looking for good book on music t... (in reply to mt1007)
quote:
yo by the way i was talking to my boy Gerardo a cajonero here in LA says he knows you man. says you're cool funny cat. so if you are ever out here lets grab a drink. we can hang or something.
Cool! Tell him hi, hope to see you guys out there when things settle down!
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Looking for good book on music t... (in reply to Mavi)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mavi
What do you think about movable do solfege for learning the fingerboard and improvisation, still with three notes per string? It may seem like you are losing the relationships between different keys, but can't we compensate it with studying the scale with si-flat, (and maybe the scale with fa-sharp)? If you learn the positions through movable do, than it looks pointless to go around circle of fifths, chromatic may be better, is it right?
In general what I am after is to understand what to think during improvisation, should we think note names like A,B,C, (is it possible to do this efficiently in all keys?), or would it be better through movable solfege? Or maybe not think note names at all and it is just finger-ear thing?
Right, well to me moveable do solfeggio is closely related to the standard jazz discipline where each scale is 1234567. The idea is to separate from the circle of 5ths as a big picture of all music possible, and instead zero in with a microscope on a single chord. The root is always “1”...or your scale tonic. There are no ”keys” only isolated unrelated chord islands that you live on briefly. However... there is no flat earth. It’s a globe like it or not and any attempt to find that fake edge will be a failure because the universe you truly exist in is the circle of 5ths actually. The bright to dark relation is still there no matter how close you zoom in on one chord of a song. So in a sense the exercise I gave above on A major...well call tonic note A “do” and it’s the exact same thing. It goes back to how complete of a picture of what’s going on do you want or need?
RE: Looking for good book on music t... (in reply to Mavi)
quote:
studying the scale with si-flat, (and maybe the scale with fa-sharp)
Funny that someone is using si, fa in english speaking world. I still remember learning these when I was a kid. Do Re Mi Fa Sol La Si Do. Sometimes it helps me understand text in old books when I flick through them in the library.
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Looking for good book on music t... (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
ORIGINAL: devilhand
quote:
studying the scale with si-flat, (and maybe the scale with fa-sharp)
Funny that someone is using si, fa in english speaking world. I still remember learning these when I was a kid. Do Re Mi Fa Sol La Si Do. Sometimes it helps me understand text in old books when I flick through them in the library.
Well, you have to know them to do Flamenco and also “bemol” and “sostonido”. Also lots of other terminology that is music theory specially designed for Flamenco including por medio por Arriba, menor mayor abajo, uno->diez (at least), macho, salida, remate, cierre, Soniquete, aire, etc etc
RE: Looking for good book on music t... (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
Is he the guy who said Practice makes permanent
So far , I really like his philosophy on playing and teaching, and it’s refreshing compared to your typical guitar method book. He seems to have a lot of wisdom similar to that statement. After all, he is applying the philosophy of mindfulness to playing and practice.
I like his answer to “how many years will it take to play like you?” — “I hope it won’t take you as many years as I took!” That’s definitely me right there! Except no one ever ask me that
RE: Looking for good book on music t... (in reply to JasonM)
Yo J
yeah man, thats a Reyes from 1980. i've been curating my collection for some time man and i do consider myself very lucky. some guitars i bought dirt cheap others not so cheap. i got them all on rotation so they all get played
RE: Looking for good book on music t... (in reply to kitarist)
quote:
Here's the table of contents for you.
I haven't started reading the book in detail yet, but at first scan it is worth it to me just for the music theory chapter, though there are many other useful (to me) chapters - e.g. chapters 7-14.
My first impression is that this was written by a very thoughtful person who took great care in laying out the information he wanted to convey, and who possesses deep insight into the subject matter.
And at $14 US for the pdf it is a steal, IMO.
Looks interesting, how many pages is it? I would prefer paper version, but by the time I have paid shipping across the Atlantic plus the inevitable import tax/customs/Vat/ AND the post office handling fee it will be really expensive. I am thinking of buying the PDF and getting it printed and bound locally (assume that's not a copyright problem....).
Anyone compare this to Beato book? I think that is 600 pages, and I guess all theory? And more expensive.
RE: Looking for good book on music t... (in reply to mark indigo)
quote:
Looks interesting, how many pages is it? I would prefer paper version, but by the time I have paid shipping across the Atlantic plus the inevitable import tax/customs/Vat/ AND the post office handling fee it will be really expensive. I am thinking of buying the PDF and getting it printed and bound locally (assume that's not a copyright problem....).
It is exactly 300 pages.
I don't think printing out your legal copy for your use is much different than transferring your legal music between devices. Here you are just transferring your copy to your paper device.
Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px
RE: Looking for good book on music t... (in reply to mark indigo)
Mark, the Beato book is a different animal. It’s more like a reference than a method. It’s a great book to have. Beato gives out a discount code everyday on his videos. Maybe like 25%. so don’t pay the full price if you don’t want.
Like Ricardo mentioned, Michael’s book Seems to have a good chapter on music theory, but I’ve only skimmed through. a lot of the book seems to cover stuff like nails, stretches, basics ...
Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px
RE: Looking for good book on music t... (in reply to singlechange)
Could those who watched it pls review it? What can we learn from it? Looks like there are 3 parts and must be very informative. I haven't watched it yet. This is part 1.
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Looking for good book on music t... (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
ORIGINAL: devilhand
Could those who watched it pls review it? What can we learn from it? Looks like there are 3 parts and must be very informative. I haven't watched it yet. This is part 1.
Yes, well I personally had to skip along a bit of that diatribe. Not sure how I feel about his musings on the hominid primate gruntings evolving towards 5th, 4th or 3rd harmonies and ultimately tonal music. He totally skipped the main history of music which is MODAL music.
But at 53:43 he touches on the CONCEPT that I have been reiterating till blue in the face regarding the relation of FITHS as the basis of music in general. He shows the lydian scale first (first 7 notes spell C lydian) then extends the perfect 5ths upward till he reaches C again. This concept of 12 notes didn’t work for early music because the piano is equal tempered. In reality those 5ths are off tuned or else the final C would sound musically “out of tune”. This is what lead all music of the world to adopt MORE THAN 12 NOTES per octave, and hence modal music can’t do what he explains next, which is tonal music which explores or has “adventures” away from the tonic key into other territories.
From that point onward toward 1:08:20 his exposition is the exact thing I have been trying to describe in all those theory threads about scales and harmony....it’s a system based on V-I. He matter of factly blasts through the the Mozart example of explaining how the chromaticism works thanks to the V-I relation of the CIRCLE OF 5THS....he says it again and again and again, every darn example is exactly that.
This thing I find myself arguing with folks on here is a matter of fact situation that people are reading as “my opinion”, which has been super frustrating. I am constantly at odd with people that don’t get the point of how V-i or V-I works in basic music concept of equal temperament, so I keep finding myself having to defend that position or explain that position, and keep getting push back.
Anyway flamenco does, even it’s most advanced modern forms, things similar to what he explained Mozart is doing in that example. The main difference is where he uses V-I or V-i, flamenco also uses the II-I phrygian resolution to achieve the same “adventures”. Hence, we don’t need to look at “scales” or anything more than chromatics, instead focus on the way things move according to the circle of 5ths (as he explains matter of factly). Now he also wants to point out this example comes from the golden age or whatever, “classical” music, and since then things have been jazzed up. But I feel most of flamenco derives from the same types of practices you see in the “golden age” or whatever you want to call it, so it’s an easy translation to make if you simply allow for a few slight alterations to the circle of 5ths, as I have stated again and again.
But if you want to talk about Mozart examples DIFFERENTLY than this guy, by talking about scales or eastern sounding things, then that is a different story, different terminology, a different “lens” through which you want to view the music.
Anyway, this guy is talking specifically about theory as pertains to classical music systems.
RE: Looking for good book on music t... (in reply to Ricardo)
Ricardo, your tonal (harmonic) explanation of flamenco seems quite convincing and illuminating to me, but I have a question about what you have written here:
quote:
This is what lead all music of the world to adopt MORE THAN 12 NOTES per octave, and hence modal music can’t do what he explains next, which is tonal music which explores or has “adventures” away from the tonic key into other territories.
I am not sure why you are saying modal music can't adventure away from the tonic. Is it because 'tonic' has a special meaning which only makes sense in harmonic setting? I was thinking tonic is where the music feels at rest (for lack of a better definition), and modal music has it too, am I wrong? In Turkish music for example, pieces can (and generally do) change mode (possibly with a different tonic) from section to section of a piece, or even in a single section of a piece. Why doesn't this count as adventuring away from the tonic?
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Looking for good book on music t... (in reply to Mavi)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mavi
Ricardo, your tonal (harmonic) explanation of flamenco seems quite convincing and illuminating to me, but I have a question about what you have written here:
quote:
This is what lead all music of the world to adopt MORE THAN 12 NOTES per octave, and hence modal music can’t do what he explains next, which is tonal music which explores or has “adventures” away from the tonic key into other territories.
I am not sure why you are saying modal music can't adventure away from the tonic. Is it because 'tonic' has a special meaning which only makes sense in harmonic setting? I was thinking tonic is where the music feels at rest (for lack of a better definition), and modal music has it too, am I wrong? In Turkish music for example, pieces can (and generally do) change mode (possibly with a different tonic) from section to section of a piece, or even in a single section of a piece. Why doesn't this count as adventuring away from the tonic?
The tuning is mathematically based on the tonic. Once you move that tonic your concept of intervalic relationships is screwed up. By fixing or putting intervals slightly off tune, equal temperament allowed any note in the entire system to function as tonic.
Whatever Turkish music you are talking about (if it actually modulates as you describe) will have been a modern equivalent of perhaps something older, modern enough to have embraced the concepts of tonality via equal tempered instruments. But if you are talking Saz ... I learned mountain flower and jammed on it with a roommate (chi chek dah), the saz has a note “in between” the guitar fret equivalents that I could fake by bending on guitar. But it is achieved on saz by simply positioning a fret tie in a certain place. The fret ties can be moved to achieve other such notes. But these notes are all RELATIVE to the tonic. Meaning the instrument can use only ONE tonic before you have to retune the thing. You can do different modes based on that single tonic, but that’s it. So say it was A note. You can do A minor scale or A dorian A phrygian etc type sounds. But those frets might have to move each time you wanted to change your scale and make it sound nice.
Playing flamenco along with me, as soon as I change the key mid song, the Saz has to stop playing with exceptions of a few consonant notes. But those notes only work BECAUSE of my equal tempered guitar being heard relative to it. The instrument itself could not do the same thing. Sitar same deal and practically every instrument in the world that is not equal tempered. Indian musicians that choose western instruments to do raga have to invent tricks to make modal music work. Such as Srinivas gomaka (vocal slides on fretted mandolin), or lap steel slide guitar. What doesn’t work is the piano... no way Jose. Mclaughlin with his guitars makes a deliberate fusion, but he can bend at least. Shankar (violin) with exquisite intonations, etc.
Anyway, lots of modern world music embraces modal concepts and uses equal tempered instruments such that tonal types of modulations can work. I can’t find the interview but when they did the qwwali project, Chicuelo expressed his frustration that the Pakistani guys did not use chords, so fusion with flamenco was actually impossible. That’s because those guys were very traditional. So you can imagine how traditional modal gurus will be frustrated when these kids show up trying to learn the traditional stuff with modern equal tempered instruments.
So when I hear about these supposed eastern songs that modulate...no man the above thing is what comes to my mind. It has to be some weird hybrid on western instruments designed for tonality.
Here’s a B phrygian thing, the guitar gives some color as if the E minor tonality is coming in to play at times. But then the beautiful modal tuned notes sound bad at 1:37. Guitar should have stopped or bent strings to match right there.
Printable Version
New Messages
No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages
Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages
Locked w/o New Messages
Post New Thread