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RE: Stephen Faulk GAL Article INCLUDED on flamenco guitar tap plate- golpeador   You are logged in as Guest
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RobF

Posts: 947
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Stephen Faulk GAL Article INCLUD... (in reply to estebanana

Thanks for sharing this. Enjoyable reading.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 25 2020 23:10:36
 
estebanana

Posts: 7999
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Stephen Faulk GAL Article INCLUD... (in reply to RobF

Thanks-

I wrote it from the point of view of showing why tap plates are important to makers and players who usually build or play steel string guitars. That’s most of the journals bread and butter. But I didn’t go into how it’s done, that might be a later article.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 26 2020 0:26:17
 
TonyGonzales84

 

Posts: 78
Joined: Apr. 23 2020
From: San Diego, CA

RE: Stephen Faulk GAL Article INCLUD... (in reply to RobF

Stephen,

Thanks for sharing this nice, informative article, and for AL giving you the heads up that you can!

Tony

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 26 2020 0:27:21
 
Schieper

 

Posts: 157
Joined: Mar. 29 2017
 

RE: Stephen Faulk GAL Article INCLUD... (in reply to RobF

I greatly enjoyed the reading. Thanks for sharing and thanks to the Gal for not making to much fuze about that.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 26 2020 12:19:00
 
JasonM

Posts: 1565
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Stephen Faulk GAL Article INCLUD... (in reply to estebanana

Wow, steam out Nail dents in FP? Really? Good article thanks for posting.

I seem to have a habit of golpe-ing the bridge rather than rosette.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 26 2020 15:02:06
 
Piwin

Posts: 3162
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Stephen Faulk GAL Article INCLUD... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

curled index thwack


The infamous thwackeo.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 26 2020 16:32:55
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 845
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Stephen Faulk GAL Article INCLUD... (in reply to estebanana

Could you write an article about the differences in the overtone structure for flamenco guitars - blanca vs negra and also in comparison with classical guitars? I found this video interesting.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 29 2020 12:09:51
 
estebanana

Posts: 7999
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Stephen Faulk GAL Article INCLUD... (in reply to devilhand

quote:


Could you write an article about the differences in the overtone structure for flamenco guitars - blanca vs negra and also in comparison with classical guitars? I found this video interesting.


I haven’t watched the video, I’m on fishing trip with limited phone service. I’ll look at it later.
I’m not the person to make that kind of comparison, and I doubt anyone could because the overtone series, the really high frequencies are extremely complicated and to parse out any consistent attributes between wood species probably impossible. You can make two guitars of the same wood as identical as humanly possible and they will be different. Especially the way the high partial series works.

Besides that, I favor Cypress, Maple and Acacia guitars and building with rosewood doesn’t inspire me as much as the blonde woods.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 31 2020 0:50:34
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12668
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Stephen Faulk GAL Article INCLUD... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

rosewood doesn’t inspire me as much as the blonde woods.


Your wife must be a brunette then.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 31 2020 15:01:52
 
estebanana

Posts: 7999
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Stephen Faulk GAL Article INCLUD... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

woods.


Your wife must be a brunette then.


They all lie about the color of the drapes...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 31 2020 16:07:47
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12668
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Stephen Faulk GAL Article INCLUD... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

quote:

woods.


Your wife must be a brunette then.


They all lie about the color of the drapes...


Like Grisha’s blue Devoe “blanca?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 31 2020 18:07:53
 
estebanana

Posts: 7999
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Stephen Faulk GAL Article INCLUD... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:


Like Grisha’s blue Devoe “blanca?


Yeah, but I prefer the David George story of the green guitar. You know the book he wrote called Flamenco Guitar? It's in the Oakland Public Library, I have my own copy in storage in the US.

There's an interview, more like BS session, with Diego 'you know who' upstairs at Casa Pepe where he used to hang out like it was his office. Diego asked him abut his green guitar and David George waxed on about it's symbolism in relation to Moorish agriculture and deep Andaluz reverence for water and transformation of the arid land into verdant green garden and farm. Citing Lorca the poet and all that.

Blue, Red, Green, and Conde Orange are all colors to be very ashamed of an have no place on flamenco guitars. But I suppose one could tolerate the green gutiar if is was just a light tint.


And I say this like Casa Pepe is a place I've actually been, but no. Casa Pepe was the Carbonaria of the old hippies in Moron. I've never been, and have only read about it and had heard stories from registered licensed Ex Moron Hippie People.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 1 2020 4:39:37
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 845
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Stephen Faulk GAL Article INCLUD... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

But I suppose one could tolerate the green gutiar if is was just a light tint.

Not a flamenco guitar. But Takamine has recently brought out a limited edition Peace.

https://www.takamine.com/ltd2020

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 1 2020 12:22:43
 
estebanana

Posts: 7999
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Stephen Faulk GAL Article INCLUD... (in reply to devilhand

how cute the fretboard is inlaid with olive branches a white doves

The David George story is interesting, it's in his book. He was a great flamenco photographer like his contemporary Steve Kahn.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 1 2020 13:12:32
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12668
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Stephen Faulk GAL Article INCLUD... (in reply to devilhand

I sure hope they had someone hug those trees before they chopped em up into peace guitars.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 1 2020 14:35:10
 
RobF

Posts: 947
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Stephen Faulk GAL Article INCLUD... (in reply to Ricardo

I don’t know why they’re describing the top as being a “green tea” colour, when it would make more sense to call it “olive drab”, which is a more fitting description of the hue. Maybe they’re trying to avoid the juxtaposition of a military colour with the Peace concept of the guitar.

They should have just tie-dyed the dang thing.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 1 2020 15:15:37
 
estebanana

Posts: 7999
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Stephen Faulk GAL Article INCLUD... (in reply to RobF

I posted this article to the Delcamp Classical forum for laughs, I’m laughing because *crickets* nobody is leaving any comments. I did get a private message when the article appeared saying it was helpful and interesting, but the person builds flamenco and classical guitars.

It’s really overall a nice bunch, but with less interest in flamenco guitars than the foro has for classical guitars. It’s funny to me that there is such separation. I like to challenge it a bit once in a while. A couple years ago I posted a nice thread about using pegs on classical guitars in which I solicited opinions about pegs.

The response was vigorously opposed in general with a few defending my right to even ask opinions. I received two or three private messages that were extremely against with lectures on mechanical gearing and hate for friction stopping the unwinding of a peg.

Then months later I got mentioned by a few makers who did make classicals with pegs, and they were happy I brought it up. I made the peg post mainly to annoy them, I never consider myself a real Hellcamper, just a flamenco drifter passing through.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 1 2020 18:50:17
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12668
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Stephen Faulk GAL Article INCLUD... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

The response was vigorously opposed in general with a few defending my right to even ask opinions. I received two or three private messages that were extremely against with lectures on mechanical gearing and hate for friction stopping the unwinding of a peg.


Oh god I’m so tempted to describe My interesting peg experience....should I find a peg thread instead Jed or lie dead Full of lead in bed with Red bed head Ned?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 1 2020 22:16:09
 
RobF

Posts: 947
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Stephen Faulk GAL Article INCLUD... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

*crickets* nobody is leaving any comments.

Maybe members over there that would be interested in this have already read the post on here and so just passed over the topic when seeing it there? It’s received over a thousand views on here.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 1 2020 22:16:12
 
estebanana

Posts: 7999
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Stephen Faulk GAL Article INCLUD... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Oh god I’m so tempted to describe My interesting peg experience....should I find a peg thread instead Jed or lie dead Full of lead in bed with Red bed head Ned?


What have you been doing all night? Reading 'Cat in the Hat' while you take acid?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 2 2020 3:02:10
 
estebanana

Posts: 7999
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Stephen Faulk GAL Article INCLUD... (in reply to RobF

quote:

Maybe members over there that would be interested in this have already read the post on here and so just passed over the topic when seeing it there? It’s received over a thousand views on here.


A bunch of New Age Classical guitar sissies that can kiss my astral plane.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 2 2020 3:03:30
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12668
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Stephen Faulk GAL Article INCLUD... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

Reading 'Cat in the Hat' while you take acid?


Sort of...distance learning has begun again.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 2 2020 17:50:43
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 845
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Stephen Faulk GAL Article INCLUD... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

the really high frequencies are extremely complicated and to parse out any consistent attributes between wood species probably impossible.

From what I know flamenco guitar sound has high frequencies which are not suppressed in comparison to classical guitars.

In the comment section of this video there's an interesting comment posted by John Taylor who wrote the famous book Tone Production on Classical Guitar.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 3 2020 19:51:19
 
RobF

Posts: 947
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Stephen Faulk GAL Article INCLUD... (in reply to devilhand

quote:

From what I know flamenco guitar sound has high frequencies which are not suppressed in comparison to classical guitars.

Maybe ‘suppressed’ isn’t the best choice of words. One of the challenges in making a classical guitar is to have good high frequency response. In the case of a flamenco, often it’s desired to emphasize the mids, or at least don’t scoop them, because that cuts through really well in a room. Some hi-fi sounding guitars get eaten by palmas and tacon while a guitar with a more direct tone doesn’t get as lost. Kind of like why the bluegrass players will often favour a mahogany D-18 style of dread over a higher end rosewood one. It can cut through the racket being made by the frikken banjo player.


*edit* Oooops, I just realized I should let Stephen answer this, didn’t realize your post was a follow-through to an earlier conversation.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 3 2020 22:00:38
 
estebanana

Posts: 7999
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Stephen Faulk GAL Article INCLUD... (in reply to devilhand

quote:


From what I know flamenco guitar sound has high frequencies which are not suppressed in comparison to classical guitars.

In the comment section of this video there's an interesting comment posted by John Taylor who wrote the famous book Tone Production on Classical Guitar.



I feel like the difference between tone production by the player and the physics of the high partials on the actual instrument might be getting confused.

But I agree with Rob F. that the way most people conceive of classical guitars today is that they are more bell like in tone. Classical is identified with round clear tone like a bel canto singer and the way a classical player is trained to release the notes is to use the guitar to bring out that full singing line and play harmony to that. But modern classical players extend the tone range possible on guitar and mix in other tones besides a bell tone, they might even though in some 'slap bass' technique.

Classical guitars now are usually constructed to be a bit more forward to that bell like concept of tone and sustain, that makes them generally more active with overtone production...but this is a complicated subject because not all players favor a guitar with 'hot' overtone flavor. And with that comes a whole discussion of how each guitar responds to the attack on the strings, how the envelope of sound of a particular guitar responds to a plucked note or chord. Does the note decay rapidly or not? etc.

Flamenco guitars in general are better if they don't have a lot of inherent sustain because they are driving beat with chord sequences, sustain piles up and gets in the way. So like Rob says tthe type of guitar that works best for that is one with the overtones less present, dialed back, and an emphasis n a easy to hear mid range.

Making classical and flamenco guitars is virtually the same process, but with emphasis on the difference between bel canto line and midrange power house. The difficult part for the maker is that nylon string guitars by virtue of their box size, top physics and string tension naturally favor being 'bassy' the bass is easier to achieve than the treble notes. So most of the time is spent trying to understand what makes a good midrange to treble transition without knocking down the midrange. The bass end of it tends to be easier because these frequencies are already build into the box due to the volume of air and string length.

The trouble starts when the strings get divided half at the octave node, and then that octave gets divided in half again, these are the frequencies we call the over tone series or upper partials. They are very difficult to understand and controlling them has eluded the best of the technical analysis of the guitar. The reason is because there are so many factors that control how the lower frequencies ' the box frequencies' are produced that when those upper partial series are activated they are developing relationships with lower frequency vibrations and it's all hard to separate.

You could read an essay called 'String Theory' by Al Carruth, it's on his website where he goes into this from a physics stand point. His conclusion is that the upper partial series is really complicated and we don't really know much about it.

I hope you can appreciate the candid admission that I know very little about how the overtone series works, but others are working on it. I can however make a good tap plate.


String Theory:
http://alcarruthluthier.com/Downloads/stringTheory.pdf

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 4 2020 2:13:06
 
ernandez R

Posts: 351
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Stephen Faulk GAL Article INCLUD... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

I posted this article to the Delcamp Classical forum for laughs, I’m laughing because *crickets* nobody is leaving any comments. I did get a private message when the article appeared saying it was helpful and interesting, but the person builds flamenco and classical guitars.

It’s really overall a nice bunch, but with less interest in flamenco guitars than the foro has for classical guitars. It’s funny to me that there is such separation. I like to challenge it a bit once in a while. A couple years ago I posted a nice thread about using pegs on classical guitars in which I solicited opinions about pegs.

The response was vigorously opposed in general with a few defending my right to even ask opinions. I received two or three private messages that were extremely against with lectures on mechanical gearing and hate for friction stopping the unwinding of a peg.

Then months later I got mentioned by a few makers who did make classicals with pegs, and they were happy I brought it up. I made the peg post mainly to annoy them, I never consider myself a real Hellcamper, just a flamenco drifter passing through.


Thiwas the peg thread where I first heard of tipping the pegs a few degrees so as to impart a tightening tendency. Ninety degrees to th head stock and the string tension is actually pushing the peg out of the taper. I've done all of mine trying anywhere from three to six degrees with the goal to have the string to peg angle, the side if the peg closest to the nut, at a few degrees over ninety.

The Delcamp is a great resource with years and years of Luthiery input, like any web forum just have your BS filter in high.

Chuckled at your LSD cat n the hat, ive raised one child and it's like that, only I am the Lorax, I speak for the trees, I speak for the trees cause the trees have no tongues. Nothing has made Recardo more real in my eyes then seeing his children running around in the background as he is trying to film some often serious nuonce of musical therioy for us on the foro: olé!

And we are all drifters... I read the foro every morning but hadn't made the time to add my two centoveos in a while, I rarely have anything to add. Glad you have drifted back into the community, we are better for it.

HR

_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 7 2020 21:28:49
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