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Specific Picado run question - Chicuelo   You are logged in as Guest
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Stu

Posts: 1926
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

Specific Picado run question - Chicuelo 

Hi guys, Hope everyone is well here.

Guitar is starting to become more a part of my life again after my birth of my daughter 3 years ago. So Ive found myself revisting some old material I used to love playing.

Always had issue with a certain picado run in Chicuelos encuentro series. His cantinas.

I've highlighted the picture.
The run is pretty straight forward but the section there requires a leap of dexterity which feels super jarring and unnatural.

lets say you play the open G with i, then same string, 2nd fret with m, you then have to leap back over to play the open B string and then immediately back to continue the run.

So my index has come to rest on the D string and now has to 'jump' over its colleague and the G string to play the open B. urgh.

Am i normal to be finding this the trickiest part of this run??

I mean I prep my i, by lifting it off the D ready, but still feels super clunky

Any tips??

Musch appreciated
Stu



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 12 2020 22:12:18
 
Auda

 

Posts: 217
Joined: Sep. 28 2019
 

RE: Specific Picado run question - C... (in reply to Stu

I am a flamenco novice so a grain of salt could be needed. That said I can play picado runs about as fast as most anybody (I am sure most folks sans physical defects can do the same). How I would approach it would break the measure down into 3s and play each set of three at speed but gap it in between. After a bit I would eventually string them all together. I am very diligent at playing the 3 notes imi or mim followed by the opposite. I would suggest the same.

The other alternative would be to play the B on the 4th fret of the G string.

Cheers
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 13 2020 1:32:09
 
Piwin

Posts: 3350
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Specific Picado run question - C... (in reply to Stu

If you want to just avoid the issue and work around it you could:
- replace the open B by B on 3rd string 4th fret
- start the run on the other finger so the open B is played with M instead of I
- (or to unnecessarily complicate things:) use a finger sweep in the middle of the run so the open B is played with M (for instance, in the 1st group of 16th notes, you could play the open B with I then sweep and play the A on 3rd string also with I)

Otherwise I don't really have any tips other than to just practice that kind of string change with I on the higher string. For me too it's the most uncomfortable configuration for picado. There's this Gerardo Nunez exercise that might help:



IM throughout and all those arpeggiated parts force you to work on that.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 13 2020 8:01:04
 
Stu

Posts: 1926
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Specific Picado run question - C... (in reply to Auda

quote:

The other alternative would be to play the B on the 4th fret of the G string.


Haha. Jeez. I dont know why I havent tried that or even thought of a way around it! Have always just been focused on how to actually overcome that leap.
I just did and it obviously makes things so much easier. Thanks!

That said. I will still try and improve my ability to deal with the tricky jump.
As I obviously like to solve technical issues in my playing as opposed to avoiding them.

I like that excercise in the vid Piwin. Thanks. Hadnt played that for a while. be nice to go over that again.

quote:

start the run on the other finger so the open B is played with M instead of I


Yeah I could do that but the issue still exists. only then its the m thats making the leap. but yeah might be slightly easier.

Will still try and conquer it. Im thinking it must be an anticipation issue. Being over ready for it. or something to do with hand position.

Thanks.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 13 2020 11:05:41
 
Auda

 

Posts: 217
Joined: Sep. 28 2019
 

RE: Specific Picado run question - C... (in reply to Stu

Here is scale (scroll to the bottom of the page) with a lot of string crossings. If you can get that down then crossings shouldn't be a bother.

http://canteytoque.es/pmiexc.htm#alzap%C3%BAa

Cheers
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 13 2020 13:41:49
 
Piwin

Posts: 3350
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Specific Picado run question - C... (in reply to Stu

quote:

Yeah I could do that but the issue still exists


Yeah, best to not avoid it IMHO. Especially because that kind of jump isn't some rare occurence. It's there in pretty much any ascending picado run. Maybe something to do with arm position? (i.e. if the part before it is a descending run you might be pulling your arm upwards and then forgetting to bring it back down for this short ascending bit). Dunno.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 13 2020 13:58:27
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13240
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Specific Picado run question - C... (in reply to Stu

quote:

Yeah I could do that but the issue still exists.


No it doesn’t. Otherwise every single ascending scale is your main problem. No the issue is simply the string crossing orientation that typically m above i is always more comfortable IF YOU GO BACK AND FORTH. Anyway, yes start the run on m and alternate. Here is a drill to get used to the tricky part, fast 16th notes are the goal, start on m finger and alternate.

—————————————————————-
——-0—————0—————0————0———
0-2——-2-0-2———2-0-2——2-0-2——2-0-etc
——————————————————————
——————————————————————-
——————————————————————

There is a bulerias falseta by sabicas based on this drill.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 13 2020 18:07:43
 
JasonM

Posts: 1776
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Specific Picado run question - C... (in reply to Ricardo

If you start with ‘m’ then it fixes that specific spot but then you run into the same crossings in the beginning of the picado passage not shown. This is often the case of course. Granted, for me, I find these crossings easier to to on the first and second strings. It’s the middle strings that are tricky because your hand position it’s starting to shift at that point. Also, I would practice by chunking the first 8 notes in the measure.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 13 2020 19:12:37
 
Stu

Posts: 1926
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Specific Picado run question - C... (in reply to Ricardo

Thanks. I'll practice that move.

Yeah I think I find that cross easier if it's done with m on this run, But then I find the rest of the run slightly less comfortable. But guessed that's something to work on too.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 14 2020 9:34:40
 
Stu

Posts: 1926
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Specific Picado run question - C... (in reply to JasonM

What do you mean by 'chunking the first 8 notes' Jason?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 14 2020 9:36:50
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1753
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Specific Picado run question - C... (in reply to Stu

Another solution is simply to use a instead of i. This seems weird at first, but throwing an a in can simplify a lot of awkward RH fingerings.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 14 2020 16:33:11
 
Stu

Posts: 1926
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Specific Picado run question - C... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

No it doesn’t. Otherwise every single ascending scale is your main problem. No the issue is simply the string crossing orientation that typically m above i is always more comfortable IF YOU GO BACK AND FORTH. Anyway, yes start the run on m and alternate.


So starting that run on m and yes the cross/leap is easier. much more natural. is that due to longer m finger?

so starting on m, I now have two more descending notes (earlier in the run) that now fall on i. hah

I basically just need to get better at descending with both fingers right?

gonna tackle that drill.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 15 2020 21:16:59
 
Stu

Posts: 1926
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Specific Picado run question - C... (in reply to Paul Magnussen

quote:

a instead of i


ooh. sounds scary
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 15 2020 21:20:26
 
kitarist

Posts: 1431
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Specific Picado run question - C... (in reply to Stu

quote:

So starting that run on m and yes the cross/leap is easier. much more natural. is that due to longer m finger?


Probably yes. And also we tend to practice that way a lot more - for example in arpeggios, we almost always place i-m-a on progressively higher-pitched strings so whatever arpeggio combination we do, it is always i-m string crossing from lower to higher pitched, and m-i on the way back. Also typical hand angle to strings may favour it.

quote:

so starting on m, I now have two more descending notes (earlier in the run) that now fall on i. hah


Yup. The full run is this:



Overall it is indeed better to do it the way it is indicated, starting with 'i', because of the first two+ measures, but then you are back to your problem. If you just want to get it over with for now, the easiest might be to move the B to 3rd string 4rth fret and that's it. However, see below.

quote:

I basically just need to get better at descending with both fingers right?


That's been my experience. One thing that helped me get better at string-crossing when it is a single back-and-forth, is to keep thinking I remain alternating on just one string and just happen to reach a bit further for one note on another string - rather than thinking I have to shift my whole hand setup to the other string for one note, then shift back again. Try it if you'd like, I am curious if it makes a difference for you. I don't mean that my hand literally never moves - it moves a bit, but very little, and more of the move is the reach with the finger - all the while I just THINK about remaining on the same string not worrying about resetting hand and string crossing.

I think Ricardo has said this before (all misinterpretation, if any, in what follows is mine )- something to the effect of we have to be able to play the string we are on and also reach the two strings on each side with minimal adjustment. You can see it in slow-mo of PdL's multi-string picado runs. It is not a sudden jerky motion to reset the hand to the new string we are on: there is a smoother transition where the finger's positions are slightly modified as the finger reaches to the higher-pitched string (say) while the hand is still moving to set up properly for that string.

I just applied it to the situation like the one you have here, with a single note on a different string, and in my case I found that thinking about it that way allowed me to finally make progress on this.

This only seems to contradict the idea of trying to preserve the same hand setup (and this moving the whole arm from the shoulder) as we move to different strings, which is really important still. It is more about the transitions or cases like this one here with a single note.

quote:

gonna tackle that drill.


The 2-string Ricardo drill, right? The more elaborate one from Antonio Rey is almost too much because of the 3-string arpeggio back and forth.

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2020 19:35:37
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3324
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Specific Picado run question - C... (in reply to Stu

quote:

I basically just need to get better at descending with both fingers right?

I was shown a string crossing exercise by Jingle that he said came from Paco. I think Pimientito posted it on the foro somewhere too. I noticed the same idea (string crossing between two strings) was used in an exercise by Pedro Sierra based on scale in 3rds instead of cromatic notes on one string and the other string open.

thread is here, scroll down to Pimientito's post:

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=177326&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=warm%2Dup%2Croutine&tmode=&smode=&s=#177448

I copied the exercise/s here:

"...actually from PDLs warm up routine and he identified this problem from early playing days and came up with some mind bending exercises to train the fingers.

Firstly, lets look at playing two open strings simultaneously with i on the second string and m on the first

--0---0---0---0--
--0---0---0---0--
-------------------
-------------------
-------------------
-------------------

Easy right! Now do it again with the fingers swapped around so m is playing second string and i playing first.......much harder to do. This is not a natural way to play the strings but its exactly the position required in string changing during picado.

If we keep open strings and play in triplets (1,2,3/1,2,3 etc.)

--0-----0----0-----0----0-----0-----0-----0----0-----0-----0-----0--
-----0-----------0----------0------------0-----------0-----------0-----
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
m i m, i m i, m i m, i m i, etc.

The first triplet is m,i,m which is easy on the first and second strings. The next triplet is i,m,i which is our harder combination. Repeat the pattern until its effortless.
In some ways its one of the most simple and yet most difficult exercises to get right. It helps to think m...i....m....i at the begining of each triplet.

Next variation is some left hand fingering

--1-----1----2-----2----3-----3-----4-----4----3-----3-----2-----2--
-----0-----------0----------0------------0-----------0-----------0-----
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- REPEAT
m i m, i m i, m i m, i m i, etc.


So when that seems to be easier the next step is more chromatic fingering.
The left hand fingering is the same as the fret number so always uses finger 3 for 3rd fret, finger 4 for 4th fret etc.

--1-----1----2-----2----3-----3-----4-----4----3-----3-----2-----2----1-----1--
-----2-----------3----------4------------3-----------2-----------1-----------2-----
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------
m i m, i m i, m i m, i m i, etc.


-----2-------------3------------4-------------3------------2-----------1---
-1------1------2-----2------3-----3------4-----4-----3-----3-----2-----2
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


repeat this pattern again on 2cd and 3rd strings then 3rd and 4th, then 4th and 5th etc.
Finally (in case this is all too easy) repeat again using m,a fingers and then i,a fingers"

Same idea in this exercise from Pedro Sierra. Triplets on two strings, so the fingers are constantly crossing back and forth between the two strings. Instead of cromatic you have C major scale in 3rds. You can take this down across strings in first position too, and you can transpose to any other scale, major, minor, phrygian, whatever:



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 17 2020 16:13:16
 
Stu

Posts: 1926
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Specific Picado run question - C... (in reply to kitarist

Sorry for short response but.....Thanks Kit and Mark. nice ideas will def have play around with them...once My 3 year old stops bloody hassling me! ahahah argh lockdown!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 19 2020 10:08:27
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