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PETENERA!   You are logged in as Guest
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ernandez R

Posts: 493
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

PETENERA! 

PETENERA!


Dark magic,
song form conjuring fear,
Gipsy dancing around fire flickerings,
sharp blades,
wine gone bad in the barrel,
thick in men's minds like
pooling blood under the slaughtering tree
Taste of fear in the mouth of mothers
wondering whence the next meal comes,
guitar with a broken treble string
thrumming along regardless:
five strings,
five fingers
inverted as the dark lords mark
making mad music,
the anti tempo of each compas.
Peteneras!



I'm not the superstitious type but have to wonder what is the source of this doom prophesy to those who play the Pentenera? I have bumped into it here and there but nothing solid.

About a year ago I was reading through Rob MacKillop's website and he has a page devoted to late 1800's flamenco music. He has a few videos of himself playing selections from Rafeal Marin's music study book published in 1902. Interesting is how Rob notes the Flamenco world has dismissed the book while knowing Marin had a direct connection to most of the late 1800 Spanish guitar players. Unfortunately like Rob I don't read Spanish but my impression of the book is less of a "pop music" how to book and a real attempt at providing a study (in the how to sense) of the genre.

One of the pieces Rob plays via utube video is one of two Peneteras on the book, the more difficult of the two I might add. I was intrigued and printed out the easier one cause... the hard looking one scared me. Rob makes it look easy.

So, knowing only the Peneteras is an acumpanyant to Cante what is the rymthmeic breakdown. Looking at the score it starts with a full bar of 6/8 then 3/4 time and on like that.

It doesn't start on 12 on our Compas clock but 1?

Is there a standard/typical Key/mode for the Peneteras? I see this one is one flat.

Attached should be the score with my scribbled in markup.

Thinking I had a lot more questions... They will come to me.

Rob's flamenco page and his link to a PDF version of the Marin book:

https://rmclassicalguitar.com/flamenco/

https://rmclassicalguitar.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/rafaelmarinmdg.pdf



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 2 2020 3:43:40
 
El Burdo

 

Posts: 596
Joined: Sep. 8 2011
 

RE: PETENERA! (in reply to ernandez R

Looks interesting. Rob is a significant figure on the Jazzguitar forum I use too.

He refers to his guitar as being made by one Steven Faulk aka Estebanana, erstwhile member of this forum. [and a 'Ricardo' offers some support in the comments. Who he?]
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 2 2020 10:59:10
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 972
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: PETENERA! (in reply to El Burdo

quote:

[and a 'Ricardo' offers some support in the comments. Who he?]

Who else! No doubt the one and only Ricardo Marlow.
Im gonna look inside that old book. Looks interesting.

_____________________________

Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 2 2020 13:49:17
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13005
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: PETENERA! (in reply to El Burdo

quote:

Who he?]


Not me.

I saw this today and nearly spit out my coffee. Against my better judgment my morbid curiosity forced me to open this thread. No sooner than I did I got 4 violent lightning strikes of bad luck.... one of which so disturbing and relevant I simply can’t share, even with friends!!! So needless to say I learned my lesson, and this is the last time I will post on such a topic.

Since damage is done I will say this. Flamenco guitar for cante appears to me, based on earliest wax cylinder evidence, to have been well established by the time of Marins method. The way we play for cante today is not much different in the traditional sense. The main guys on recordings that created the model were Gandulla, Borrull, Montoya, etc. These guys did not sound like classical guitar guys at all. They didn’t read music really. Some pro gitanos didn’t read or write their own name much less tablature or score. The method book we have discussed in the past, while an important historical source the actual content is like the “fakemenco” of its day. An appeal to the upper class classical guitar students that wanted to tip toe into the Flamenco sound without having to work in the mines of a Union or the forge in jerez. The trend continues today. The book is useless for a serious Flamenco student. The titles have form names but not form structures. Superficial similarities are incidental. Attempts to trace out cante melodies are “cute”. In my fathers library was Sophocles papas “easy Flamenco variations” from 1960s. Similar marketing concept. If you find the music fun to read and enjoy the melodies, great, but have no illusions you are learning Flamenco with those type of books. Simply consider it the spanish repertoire portion of the classical guitar.

About peteneras...ugh.... 6/8-3/4 alternating bars (8th note=8th note) is a common pattern in spain since gaspar Sanz times. Canarios. It’s always happening in spanish music and Flamenco. Understanding phrasing is more important. One could twist solea and bulerias to fit the same pattern and what happens is 12 and 3 accents correspond to the 6/8 bar, 6,8, and 10 accents correspond to the 3/4 bar. The 12 counting comes from non musical dance discipline and therefore used as a learning and communication tool, so a family of song forms can be arranged into a choreography.

But the true difference is phrasing of the harmony. Peteneras phrasing aligns more with Guajiras phrasing than solea. Harmony changes for guajiras on 12 and 6 of the above accent pattern (down beats of your 6/8 and 3/4 bars).... but alegria for example has same chord changes on 3 and 10 (second dotted quarter beat of 6/8, and beat 3 of the 3/4 bar). The most common phrase of peteneras would follow that 12,6, rhythm pattern across two cycles,:
Am E7,Am Am Am, then G F,E E E.

The key of A minor or E phrygian fits the male vocal range best. The Marin ditty above is in Dm or por medio. Again, doesn’t make a lot of practical sense to do that for a student method if the actual flamenco form is what you are after.

The reason it’s bad luck...legend goes, someone died dancing it. Avoid if possible.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 2 2020 14:04:29
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3308
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: PETENERA! (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Flamenco guitar for cante appears to me, based on earliest wax cylinder evidence, to have been well established by the time of Marins method. The way we play for cante today is not much different in the traditional sense. The main guys on recordings that created the model were Gandulla, Borrull, Montoya, etc. These guys did not sound like classical guitar guys at all. They didn’t read music really. Some pro gitanos didn’t read or write their own name much less tablature or score. The method book we have discussed in the past, while an important historical source the actual content is like the “fakemenco” of its day. An appeal to the upper class classical guitar students that wanted to tip toe into the Flamenco sound without having to work in the mines of a Union or the forge in jerez. The trend continues today. The book is useless for a serious Flamenco student. The titles have form names but not form structures. Superficial similarities are incidental. Attempts to trace out cante melodies are “cute”. In my fathers library was Sophocles papas “easy Flamenco variations” from 1960s. Similar marketing concept. If you find the music fun to read and enjoy the melodies, great, but have no illusions you are learning Flamenco with those type of books.


I have also listened to a lot of the old wax cylinder recordings, and played for dance for at least 20 years and totally agree with this.

The rhythm goes DUM, dum, dum, DUM, dum dum, DUM, dum, DUM, dum, DUM, dum. Same as Guajira, you can attach whatever numbers you like to it!

I don't think 12, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 is any more right or wrong than 1 and a, 2 and a, 1 and, 2 and, 3 and. Bear in mind that lots of the falsetas and footwork variations will be repeated phrases of 3 beats (ie. lots of it could be written in 3/4, if anyone could be bothered to write it down)

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 2 2020 15:53:14
 
edguerin

Posts: 1558
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: PETENERA! (in reply to ernandez R

Some years back, in a compás class, Javier Prieto told me he thought the "bad luck" mythology of Peteneras resulted from the demands put on the singer. So a lot of Gitanos would avoid it by saying it was "cursed".

_____________________________

Ed

El aficionado solitario
Alemania
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 2 2020 16:55:06
 
JasonM

Posts: 1701
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: PETENERA! (in reply to edguerin

Well it’s a good think playing Bulerias isn’t bad luck! .... or maybe, it originally was bulerias that was cursed but the Gitanos wouldn’t stand for loosing bulerias so they used peneteres as a scapegoat lol.

Hope it wasn’t anything too bad Ricardo!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 2 2020 23:14:08
 
ernandez R

Posts: 493
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: PETENERA! (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

Who he?]


Not me.

I saw this today and nearly spit out my coffee. Against my better judgment my morbid curiosity forced me to open this thread. No sooner than I did I got 4 violent lightning strikes of bad luck.... one of which so disturbing and relevant I simply can’t share, even with friends!!! So needless to say I learned my lesson, and this is the last time I will post on such a topic.


Well...
I should have listened to Ricardo. Playing the evil P who's name shall not be henceforth mentioned is some bad news.

Got run down by a big bull moose this morning.
Was under his belly dodging hooves as he tried to kill me.

He got one on my foot, broke a few bones, hit the clinic for X-rays, now off to a walk in orthopedic clinic, (is that a joke?) hoping they can fix it and not have to hit the big hospital ... No luck, it's ugly, off to get an MRI...
Looks like I get to have some hardware installed at our big hospital to fix a few crushed bones but in a week or more once the swelling goes down. Right in the middle of a world wide pandemic.
Hurts like ****...

Was running, thought I slipped but my buddy says moose knocked me down with a head butt. My buddy was yelling RUN! RUN! but I was trapped in a 4-5 feet deep snow blower trail and nowhere to turn. After was down I could feel his hooves coming down on my down coat and I was jagging side to side just missing his deadly stomps as he tried to get me.

It's 10:pm just took my first pain pill, only half and thinking I'll ask the boss if she would bring down her parlor guitar for me to play...

PENETENARA!


HR

ps. Ricardo, thanx for your detailed reply, im already a little groggy from half a happy pill...

_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 3 2020 7:35:07
 
gerundino63

Posts: 1617
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: PETENERA! (in reply to ernandez R

I once hearded the story, that in a small Pueblo in Andalucia, there was the most beautiful Gitana girl named Petenera.
She was so very beatiful that all the men fell in love with her. They stopped working when she passed by, and they all stared at her till they got tears in their eyes.
Petenera, who loved all the attention, flirted and flirted, and flirted. All the man went crazy about her, and all the woman hated her.

Than, suddenly, she died.

The men in the pueblo cried and mourned for More than a year, they did not work anymore They stopped eating, they where sad and depressed.

After a year with no working on the land, poverty and starvation everywhere, illness and dead all over.

The Pueblo was distroyed. The inhabitants all died.........

That is why the Petenera brings bad luck guys, be carefull out there, do not look at beautiful girls while singing or playing this palos,

Even better my friends, stop playing it at all, and, maybe stop writing on this topic.

You are aware of the true story now, so you cannot say you did not know........

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 3 2020 9:06:57
 
Andy Culpepper

Posts: 2952
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: PETENERA! (in reply to ernandez R

Dude what in the actual ****. Following your life is like watching that show Life Below Zero. I hope you can rest up and heal and avoid the Covid. No more P*******!

_____________________________

Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 5 2020 17:06:59
 
JasonM

Posts: 1701
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: PETENERA! (in reply to ernandez R

Judas Priest Ernandez! I thought that stuff only happens on the discovery channel! Glad you made it out. Did your friend scare him off or did he just run off on his own?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 5 2020 19:06:05
 
RobF

Posts: 1118
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: PETENERA! (in reply to JasonM

quote:

I thought that stuff only happens on the discovery channel!


Hopefully that wasn’t what the moose had in mind!



Kidding aside, take care of yourself Ernandez. They’ll keep you well isolated, it’ll work out, and you’ll be back in the shop in no time.


(*edit* Simon, if that vid is too off for the Foro I’ll take it down and just refer to the title.)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 5 2020 22:56:23
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