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Posts: 208
Joined: Mar. 29 2017
From: The Netherlands
sheet music for organ/flamenco guitar?
Hi all,
Turns out an acquintence is a vivid (church)organ player. So now we agreed to meet up in 2 weeks at his place to see if we can play something together. You have any suggestions ideas of organ/flamenco combo. I am fully aware it's an odd question.
I am quiet okay to horse around a bit but he is a bit more a classical schooled musician so probably needs some sheet music...
RE: sheet music for organ/flamenco g... (in reply to Schieper)
You might need to narrow it down some more because there is so much transcribed organ flamenco music
If I were doing this I would use something like the harmonica stuff from PdL’s band. You could either transcribe that stuff yourself or find a Paco transcript for guitar and give the organ player that to read. For example this would be perfect:
RE: sheet music for organ/flamenco g... (in reply to Schieper)
quote:
You have any suggestions ideas of organ/flamenco combo.
Do the Bach Chorale BWV 305 that Ricardo fashioned into a flamenco piece ( http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=322053 ). The organ can play the choir parts (it's actually a great fit for this), you play Ricardo's "choraleá" from the second part of his video:
P.S. Wait , what? He has a full organ at his place?!?
Posts: 208
Joined: Mar. 29 2017
From: The Netherlands
RE: sheet music for organ/flamenco g... (in reply to Schieper)
awesome. Thanks guys. Not that I now just pick up the guitar and do the bach/ricardo thing or the harmonica; but this gives me some inspiration. Maybe I start on focusing a sole where he can do the underlying chords and I the solo.. lets see where this will get us :-)
He has an electric organ. Still impressive 3 layered keyboard, wood monstrosity and an octave of foot pedals. Also with these wooden pull out levers like in a church to select the tone. You have to have an understanding wive :-)
I actually also met a chap ones with an actual church organ at his attic. He had a detached house and bought it from a church that was closed down. The money he paid for the organ was peanuts to the money he paid for installing it in his home every pipe had to be re-adjusted to decrease volume levels and acoustics of his attic. But it is always nice to meet people with such interest and commitment to pull it through.
Posts: 208
Joined: Mar. 29 2017
From: The Netherlands
RE: sheet music for organ/flamenco g... (in reply to Schieper)
Hi all, just a quick feedback.. we indeed ended up with Bach and horsed around a bit with Toccata et Fuga. Which made me realise I need to start learning reading musical notation now. So I did :-)
Anyway; this opened up a new door in music for me. Never realy listened to Bach.
We also gave dire straights private investigation a shot which turned out to be a nice chord progression.
Then we moved to some "gypsy king style" 4/4 rhytmes.
The cool thing I learned is that organ as wel as guitar have a lot of rythm and solo possibilities which is great to switch from one to the other.
2 other things that came to me is that where I like the sound of worn strings as it becomes smoother, together with the organ, it sounded somewhat bland and uninspiring.
Also, I brought my negra as it has overal a warmer sound and I thought it would match great with the sustain of the organ sound but next time I will try my blanca as the more aggressive responds and sound might paint a more interesting picture.
RE: sheet music for organ/flamenco g... (in reply to Ricardo)
I have listened to Bach occasionally over the years, mainly solo violin and solo cello, and recently solo keyboard (on piano, can't get on with the sound of harpsichord), but never felt it sounded right on the guitar. But these Bach interpretations are terrific! the Chorale, Chaconne, and also the BWV 996 Bourrée on another thread - sounds to me just how Bach should sound on a guitar.
RE: sheet music for organ/flamenco g... (in reply to Schieper)
quote:
made me realise I need to start learning reading musical notation now.
Listening to Bach has got me thinking the same thing. I know enough of the system to decipher the symbols, but I can't actually do what I would call "reading" the notes - I'm like a kid reading c-a-t a-n-d d-o-g
Also wondering to what extent proficient readers hear the notes and know where to play that sound on the instrument rather than just mechanically play them from the score?
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: sheet music for organ/flamenco g... (in reply to mark indigo)
This is my most favorite random Bach piece. But I have to play it just like Glenn Gould or it’s not worth it...and it’s super ridiculous hard. But I am getting closer! Here is the score...and I am playing along with Gould slowed way down.
Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px
RE: sheet music for organ/flamenco g... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
This is my most favorite random Bach piece. But I have to play it just like Glenn Gould or it’s not worth it...and it’s super ridiculous hard. But I am getting closer! Here is the score...and I am playing along with Gould slowed way down.
What?! you're playing a piano score, bass clef and all?! How is that even possible?! Jeez man what kind of insane genius are you?!
Are you playing everything as written/played by GG?
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: sheet music for organ/flamenco g... (in reply to mark indigo)
quote:
Are you playing everything as written/played by GG?
Almost. There are lots of changes. In the first part I needed a low Eb so a long time ago I had tried to do this for two guitars and the 2nd guitar tunes down to Eb only the 6th string. But when looking at it as a solo I realized if I tuned the entire guitar down a 1/2 step, I could read the score as written but pretend it was in C#minor instead of C minor. So there is that first of all . That is why I have the dog joke picture.
Next, a couple bass notes are too fast so in some spots I will skip a bass note and just play the note that aligns with the treble note...especially in some of the double stop sequences. Also I change the octave in a couple spots because the right hand goes a little bit too wide for what the bass notes need to be. And last, there are two low C notes I couldn’t hit. The first goes C-C in octaves...I do G-C instead and it totally works with the melody. And the last I just play an octave up (last chord bass note). But for the most part it’s what Gould is playing there.
RE: sheet music for organ/flamenco g... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
This is my most favorite random Bach piece. But I have to play it just like Glenn Gould or it’s not worth it...and it’s super ridiculous hard. But I am getting closer! Here is the score...and I am playing along with Gould slowed way down.
RE: sheet music for organ/flamenco g... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
and I am playing along with Gould slowed way down.
Amazing! And then in the last third of the vid, isn't that you playing it at speed?
EDIT: Oh I see, the original is at roughly twice the first speed you do it at, so still some 30 clicks to go compared to the second faster run (!!)
(haha these guys on the left are doing it at about the required speed)
P.S. I played your first run along with
and it kinda works for a while as a duo !
But Seriously, this is amazing. Kudos. If you make a tab with your left-hand fingerings and positions, I'd love to buy it. This is a monster left hand workout!
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: sheet music for organ/flamenco g... (in reply to kitarist)
quote:
Oh I see, the original is at roughly twice the first speed you do it at, so still some 30 clicks to go compared to the second faster run (!!)
Yes, well, there is a slim chance my left hand might learn to keep up at some point...but my thumb might never be able to do the double stop 16ths that fast. So my goal is to play it clean (eventually, cuz that was pretty sloppy still) at .75 speed, then use the metronome to gradually get it up to whatever my maximum thumb speed is. By the way, the score was reprinted from a version made in 1884 that had tempo marking 120 bpm for the quarter note. Gould starts a bit faster and later drops below that. So I am aiming for 100bpm or so long term goal.
RE: sheet music for organ/flamenco g... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
when looking at it as a solo I realized if I tuned the entire guitar down a 1/2 step, I could read the score as written but pretend it was in C#minor instead of C minor.
How do you "pretend it was in C#minor"? Do you learn it as C- and then play everything one fret higher? Or do you read the 3 flats as 4 sharps? (I think this is a pianists trick, if actual pitch isn't an issue you can read 4 sharps as 3 flats or 4 flats as 3 sharps). I see now you start at 4th fret and end at 9th.
I didn't get the dog joke.... oh wait, so it's growling at 7 flats, but sort of smiling at all naturals - ok, I think I get it now
RE: sheet music for organ/flamenco g... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
But when looking at it as a solo I realized if I tuned the entire guitar down a 1/2 step, I could read the score as written but pretend it was in C#minor instead of C mino
So I played around with this briefly, having found a score for it in MusicXML format.
Here is the score auto-transposed 1 semitone up, key signature now reads as C#minor/E major, and I switched the bass clef to G clef so we guitarists can stop crying read it more easily.
So far so good (let me know if there are screwups from the transposition). Now what did you do with the bass line - lots of notes are below low E. Did you flip just the ones below one octave up, or raised the whole bass line one octave up?
So far the modified score looks like this:
Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: sheet music for organ/flamenco g... (in reply to kitarist)
quote:
So far so good (let me know if there are screwups from the transposition). Now what did you do with the bass line - lots of notes are below low E. Did you flip just the ones below one octave up, or raised the whole bass line one octave up?
You maybe forgot that guitar music sounds one octave lower than written. Middle C in treble clef for all other instruments is on the first ledger line BELOW the staff. C4. Guitar players read the same pitch up on the C in the third space (FACE are the spaces). Bass guitar read that bass clef an octave down as well. One would think guitar would actually be better suited in Bass clef as per the piano left hand. But we do have some high notes also.
So that means transpose the WHOLE SONG up an octave. I manage the entire A section in the actual pitch. But in measure 14 I took it (right hand part) down an octave after playing around with it up high. Actually I am still on the fence about that measure but haven’t worked it to speed yet doing it up there, I lose the low G# bass note by doing it up there. Also in measure 13 I am doing the B note as the open string (octave lower than should be) it is a sort of flamenco trick to do that. Also measure 22 I take RH down an octave (note the G nat and B nat are nice open strings that way) and that carries over to first two beats of measure 23 but I get back into the proper octave on beat 3. Also measure 23 I play G# bass on beat 2 then C# bass an octave higher than the impossible low one.
The spot I played with a lot and gave up was the finale...it is really hard cuz I wanted the low G#, but in the end I gave up on it because the melody is so nice up high and it’s a nice guitar type arp at the end barred up at 9. I only do two of the tricky trills, beat 4 in measures 14 and 16. And sacrifice a bass note to do it.
One thing about timing is interesting here. We often talk about “half compas” and as we know sometimes on paper the music feeling is “crossed” and we don’t really change things if it happens again because the math works out to 12 or whatever. So Bach is doing this deliberately here. He has a half compas phrase at bar 7 (to continue the bass line walk down) so beat three takes on the “downbeat” feel until the very end of the A section when he resolves on beat 3 and the little tag arpegio remate is also a “half compas” so we start over on count 1. Later in measure 24 the same thing, a “crossed” feeling where the sequences each resolve on beat 3 and the feel continues until the conclusion of the prelude on beat 3. Gould doesn’t repeat the B section but if you did, again you have the half compas remate that lets you start on count 1.
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: sheet music for organ/flamenco g... (in reply to mark indigo)
quote:
if actual pitch isn't an issue you can read 4 sharps as 3 flats or 4 flats as 3 sharps
Right, so flat accidentals I read as “natural” and naturals I read as “sharps”. I admit I did fall into a few traps but my ear fixed it once I got the tempo moving a little. The funniest was the trills in bars 14 and 16...the score I have (if you compare to Kitarist where they politely write it twice in one bar both spots) expects you to remember to carry that natural B or Enat (in my key it’s B# ie C natural or E# ie F lol) so for a long time I thought Gould was changing the score there. I found at least one piano player make the same error.
But overall, it was pretty simple to just “pretend” there are 4 sharps and read notes as they appear on the page. Of course I am “cheating” the concept of the well temp collection being an exploration of every key....but lets be honest. Some keys suck on guitar.
Posts: 1945
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: sheet music for organ/flamenco g... (in reply to mark indigo)
I'm not sure exactly what you mean about guys who read well. Could you elaborate? I studied with a great jazz player who could open a book and play what was in front of him. It's incredibly hard to reach that level on the guitar. I played in a big band in college and the reading was brutal-lay out for 188 bars and then do syncopated chord hits, play a crazy line, now stand up and solo over these changes......I was good enough to pass the audition but not good enough to really do it at an acceptable level.
quote:
ORIGINAL: mark indigo
quote:
made me realise I need to start learning reading musical notation now.
Listening to Bach has got me thinking the same thing. I know enough of the system to decipher the symbols, but I can't actually do what I would call "reading" the notes - I'm like a kid reading c-a-t a-n-d d-o-g
Also wondering to what extent proficient readers hear the notes and know where to play that sound on the instrument rather than just mechanically play them from the score?
RE: sheet music for organ/flamenco g... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
You maybe forgot that guitar music sounds one octave lower than written.
Haha yup, I did.
Here's v.2 with I think all the details you point out (except didn't bother to modify the trills). Just the end was not clear to me if this was what you meant. Any screwups, or further modifications?
Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px
RE: sheet music for organ/flamenco g... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
You maybe forgot that guitar music sounds one octave lower than written. Middle C in treble clef for all other instruments is on the first ledger line BELOW the staff. C4.
Where's middle C on guitar? On 5th string 3rd fret?
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