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Jose Ramirez 1AF 656 Negra any good?
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3431
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Jose Ramirez 1AF 656 Negra any good? (in reply to mark indigo)
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I have had a '67 Ramirez cypress/cedar blanca since it was new. On the inside foot of the neck it has the initials of Antonio Martinez, one of Ramirez's best known oficiales. Some dealers have told me the initials increase the value of the instrument, others have said it makes no difference. It's a great guitar. Not just a good guitar, but a great one. I say this having owned and played an '82 Arcangel Fernandez cypress/spruce blanca for nearly 20 years. I have played a few other Ramirez blancas from the same period which were as great, and several which were not as great, but still very good guitars. These instruments in excellent condition are priced $5,500-6,500 on dealers' web sites. You could pay much less in a private sale. The Ramirez guitars of the present day are not generally seen to be of the same high quality as those of the 1960s. They are well built, cosmetically excellent, but not generally seen to be as high quality in sound and playability as those made under the direction of Jose Ramirez III in the 1960s. In the early 1970s Ramirez expanded production significantly. An additional workshop was set up in another building, and many more workers were hired. Sound and playability became more variable. RNJ
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Date Feb. 2 2020 23:39:57
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Mark2
Posts: 1872
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
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RE: Jose Ramirez 1AF 656 Negra any good? (in reply to CA_Sevilla01)
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I found a Ramirez 1A blanca back in the early 80's for 700.00 It was mint. I showed it to my teacher who was a professional from Spain. He said it was a very good guitar, and he would have also bought it at that price. But he went on to say "Don't think you have the best, because there are better guitars" I still have the guitar, and after banging on it for thirty or so years, it is far from mint. But it's still a very good guitar, with a sweet tone, somewhere between a normal blanca and a negra. It can really deliver that older style tone if you like. And it has the growl when you push it, but is capable of sweet single note expression when you caress it. A few years back I had Lester Devoe make me a guitar, and it was not 10k, but in that neighborhood. To me it surpasses the Ramirez. If I lost it, I would buy another one without hesitation. Of course I'd happily pay 700.00 for another Ramirez 1a, but unless I played the Ramirez in question and felt it was the be all end all of flamenco guitars, no way I'd come close to letting go of 10k for it.
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Date Feb. 3 2020 22:10:35
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Echi
Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
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RE: Jose Ramirez 1AF 656 Negra any good? (in reply to CA_Sevilla01)
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I agree with the description of the sound: balanced with sweet tone. In my case also powerful. In fact new Ramirez are nothing else but the same guitar made famous by Sabicas (same plantilla, same bracing and geometry) but with spruce top and (I guess) thicker plates for added boldness and sweetness in the trebles. In my 1986 Ramirez, the quality of the workmanship is evident as the quality of the woods; in line with the high standards of Ramirez. Btw, speaking of professional players, my very Ramirez used to belong first to the great Manuel Cano and after to the leading player of the GuitArt quartet. Sides and back have been repaired 3 times, but I like it. Sweet, fat and firm trebles are a big plus for a guitar, not a limit. This becomes evident if you play whatever piece of Amigo or Rey and eventually is a quality recalling Sabicas in the past and the guitars of Reyes nowadays. The basses or my Ramirez are instead firm. It’s not all gold: my main guitar (an old Conde) is stronger and I like it more, but it’s not as lyrical as the Ramirez. Speaking of price, 700 $ is nothing and 10.000 is too much imho. For 5000 you are plenty of good alternatives in the same league and very connected with Ramirez (Teodoro Perez, Pedro de Miguel, Jose’ Romero, Manuel Caceres, Manzanero jr. etc.). For less than 5000 you are plenty of good alternatives elsewhere either or you just will look at the second hand market. Robje, I dealt many times with Solera and they buy (for very few Btw) just what they are sure to sell quickly, hence their preference for cedar Ramirez. Also Ramirez built many more cedar flamenco guitars than spruce ones and that’s why is easier to find them in the 2nd hand market.
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Date Feb. 4 2020 10:07:30
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Echi
Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
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RE: Jose Ramirez 1AF 656 Negra any good? (in reply to CA_Sevilla01)
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quote:
It’s because of the sheer number of recordings of cante they did in Spain. That would be Niño ricardo and Melchor de Marchena. Flamenco is a very closed society, if something is trending it spreads like fire. Turns out conde guitars got the sound everyone wanted, including paco. He was a follower not a trend setter in this regard. Ricardo, I always read you with interest. Probably at the beginning it’s like you say, Nino Ricardo set the path, and drove many to Conde but later on Paco became definitely a trend setter on his own. The sound of Paco and his negra rocked. I think you are right with people like Paco Cepero or Pepe Habichuela or Morao but younger players like Enrique del Melchor, Riqueni, Franco (in this case playing Rodriguez) Nunez or Tomatito I’d say were more continuous with Paco. In the very past flamenco players could get the best guitars from the shops of Manuel Ramirez’ disciples (Santos Hernandez from one side, Domingo Esteso from the other). Modesto Borreguero wasn’t really an option because of his problem with drinking. The shop of Santos followed with his disciple Barbero and then Arcangel, the shop of Esteso with the Conde brothers. These 2 shops were competitors. It’s well known (and documented by Bruné in the Urlick book) that both Monoya and Ricardo played Santos till Nino Ricardo passed to Conde after having been cheated by Santos with a less than satisfactory guitar paid in advance with tanks of olive oil. Btw, there is a video out there of Ricardo’s widow showing Ricardo’s guitars to a friend: one of the guitars is the broken Santos, said to be his favourite, the other one is the Sobrinos with ‘Cathedral’ headstock offered to him by Faustino. This for sure brought people to the side of Conde. It’s also well known that Arcangel wasn’t a valid alternative. First because he was too expensive. Second, because even before selling all his future production to a Japanese dealer, he had devoted himself to classical guitar making, as he was tired of not being paid by flamenco players or to deal with players wanting a quote for guitars sold through their influence. At this point it’s clear that Conde and Jose’ Ramirez used to be the best makers of flamenco guitars from ‘55 on in Madrid.
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Date Feb. 5 2020 13:14:26
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