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Racism is alive in the USA-even with guitars !?!?   You are logged in as Guest
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AngelsFlight13

Posts: 10
Joined: Oct. 11 2019
From: Los Angeles, California USA

Racism is alive in the USA-even with... 

Greetings All,
I just wanted to take a moment and share with you something. I had posted one of my guitars for sale on eBay for a very reputable and one of the oldest builders in Paracho, Mexico. This evening I received this un-solicited message out of the blue. This "gent" sells luthier supplies and occasional guitars on eBay. It is possible some of the builders here in the US purchase items from him. I just wanted to let you know who you are dealing with. I am shamed to say say many people with closed minds still think like this in the USA. More so now than before, unfortunately.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 24 2019 8:16:41
 
gerundino63

Posts: 1672
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Racism is alive in the USA-even ... (in reply to AngelsFlight13

It is so respectful to post private email on a foro.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 24 2019 9:26:44
 
AngelsFlight13

Posts: 10
Joined: Oct. 11 2019
From: Los Angeles, California USA

RE: Racism is alive in the USA-even ... (in reply to gerundino63

unfortunately - private not email or not, in my mind racism is just not tolerated. when people are silent this mindset festers and grows.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 24 2019 13:15:34
 
rombsix

Posts: 7607
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Racism is alive in the USA-even ... (in reply to AngelsFlight13

The USA's motto from my standpoint: "Shiny on the outside, empty on the inside". Like a bubble...

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http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 26 2019 17:41:43
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13289
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Racism is alive in the USA-even ... (in reply to AngelsFlight13

quote:

More so now than before, unfortunately.


No, it’s much less now. It only gets pointed out openly and discussed more often, as you have just exemplified. A fantastic documentary on the subject by musician Daryl DAVIS called “Accidental Courtesy” is highly recommended.

And about “festering and growing”, pointing fingers at people’s face does not change the mentality what so ever. What does is thoughtful open discussion, engagement between two individuals with different backgrounds, a willingness to learn about each other. A lot of people, not just white of course, are extremely racist and don’t realize it, or don’t refer to it as such. I say it’s become fashionable to point this out in white people only. Indeed, do you not assume already the person saying “wet back” is himself WHITE? Don’t pretend that you don’t care about his skin color nor that making such an assumption is not racist as well. All you have done by pointing your finger in this case is reveal who YOU are, you have not engaged in any mind changing behavior to your messenger nor anyone else.

And regarding USA.... sure you are correct it seems only the racist have wanted to come HERE vs anywhere else in the world, the entire rest being completely tolerant such as your own country for example. 😂

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 27 2019 18:27:12
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3297
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Racism is alive in the USA-even ... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

And regarding USA.... sure you are correct it seems only the racist have wanted to come HERE vs anywhere else in the world, the entire rest being completely tolerant such as your own country for example.


Well said, Ricardo. I have always found it amusing when someone from abroad comes to the United States to take advantage of what it has to offer, for example to advance his medical education, and then trashes it with unsubstantiated criticism.

An example from this thread: "The USA's motto from my standpoint: 'Shiny on the outside, empty on the inside'. Like a bubble..."

"Empty on the inside" indeed. From his "standpoint" it all must have been a waste of time, although he appears to have stayed to complete his program. Not to mention the one million legal immigrants the US accepts annually and the hundreds of thousands awaiting their priority dates to immigrate legally and become Permanent Residents, all of whom are no doubt unaware of the vast "emptiness" they will face on the "inside." Some "bubble" indeed. I am reminded of the definition of hypocrisy: The homage vice pays to virtue.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 28 2019 2:37:09
 
gerundino63

Posts: 1672
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Racism is alive in the USA-even ... (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

The homage vice pays to virtue


That’s a nice one Bill.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 28 2019 8:33:39
 
Schieper

 

Posts: 197
Joined: Mar. 29 2017
From: The Netherlands

RE: Racism is alive in the USA-even ... (in reply to AngelsFlight13

In my view, to often the racist card is played when some-one feels offended or entitled to something. Nobody owes you anything.

Further, although at face value it looks like a strange mail; you do not know what happened there because I assume you did not ask. Maybe he/she had a bad day, his son/daughter was fiddling with the account/etc. Ask and you might have a chance to make the world shine a bit more bright.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 28 2019 12:03:44
 
Piwin

Posts: 3376
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Racism is alive in the USA-even ... (in reply to rombsix

quote:

"Shiny on the outside, empty on the inside"


Give my receding hairline a few more years and this sentence will be a fitting description of my own head.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 28 2019 14:25:58
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3202
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Racism is alive in the USA-even ... (in reply to rombsix

quote:

ORIGINAL: rombsix

The USA's motto from my standpoint: "Shiny on the outside, empty on the inside". Like a bubble...


In my opinion, by the time you reach the age of 70 you ought to have experienced a few serious disappointments with the human race as a whole.

Personally I have experienced a few different cultures for several years at a time. I found considerable virtues and great defects in each. The solution is to associate yourself with the virtuous elements, work to ameliorate the defects, and avoid being depressed by the inevitable failings of the society.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 28 2019 18:48:42
 
chester

Posts: 842
Joined: Oct. 29 2010
 

RE: Racism is alive in the USA-even ... (in reply to Schieper

quote:

the racist card is played when some-one feels offended

or when someone calls mexicans wetbacks (a term only used in order to offend).

I'm with OP - that seller seems like a d**che. Doesn't matter if they're a dude from the backwaters of mississippi or a wealthy middle aged woman from buenos-aires.

quote:

All you have done by pointing your finger in this case is reveal who YOU are

I'm getting that OP is someone who doesn't like it when someone disparages other people based on their nationality. Seems like a decent thing no?

quote:

the entire rest being completely tolerant such as your own country for example

classic whataboutism.

quote:

It is so respectful to post private email on a foro.

plot twist -- the seller is actually a racist person in the netherlands.

To OP -- good on you for calling this behavior out. Unfortunately I don't think you'll change anyone's minds over ebay messages so it's best to just keep your sights forward and not engage this seller.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 28 2019 19:02:11
 
gerundino63

Posts: 1672
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Racism is alive in the USA-even ... (in reply to chester

quote:

the seller is actually a racist person in the netherlands


So it is ok to post private emails when you are called a racist?

What else makes it ok?

If you do not pay your tax in time?
Or disrespect a red traffic light?
Or when you smoke?
Or when you do not smoke?


Can you give me a list? So I know when it is ok to post private emails?

Thanks in advance..

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 28 2019 22:42:34
 
chester

Posts: 842
Joined: Oct. 29 2010
 

RE: Racism is alive in the USA-even ... (in reply to gerundino63

quote:

ORIGINAL: gerundino63
So it is ok to post private emails when you are called a racist?

What else makes it ok?

If you do not pay your tax in time?
Or disrespect a red traffic light?
Or when you smoke?
Or when you do not smoke?


Can you give me a list? So I know when it is ok to post private emails?

Thanks in advance..


I like how you're equating being a bigot to smoking.

Anyway, I'd argue that that specific email is not private per se. There's nothing personal being discussed, only business between strangers.

Are you defending classicalvintageguitars? The only redeeming circumstance would be if the image is fake imo

Maliciously disparaging a group of people because of circumstances they have no control over is one of the most damaging human behaviors. I can imagine how it might have served us in the past from an evolutionary perspective, but I'd like to think that most of our societies have advanced beyond the need for 'othering'.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 28 2019 23:50:57
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3202
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Racism is alive in the USA-even ... (in reply to chester

quote:


or when someone calls mexicans wetbacks (a term only used in order to offend)


In south Texas the term is “pato mojado,” literally “wet leg.” People know that in places the river is not that deep.

But you would be more likely to say of your recently arrived uncle, “No tiene papeles.”

“Pato mojado” is not strictly racist in the most common sense of the word. It may be applied to descendants of the 1680 Nuevo Santander colonists by their cousins whose colonial ancestors settled on the north side of the Rio Bravo del Norte.

Nuevo Santander was established on both sides of the lower Rio Grande to defend against any expansionist tendencies of the French, who then held what became the U.S. Louisiana territory. Many south Texans who speak Spanish at home descend from people whose ancestors arrived there 160 years before the gringos showed up.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2019 3:52:04
 
Piwin

Posts: 3376
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Racism is alive in the USA-even ... (in reply to gerundino63

quote:

So it is ok to post private emails


FWIW, in France what Angel did here would be quite simply illegal I think. Except in a very narrow set of circumstances, divulging a private correspondence without the consent of the other party is against the law in France. I don't know how it is in other countries. I do know that the secrecy of correspondence is enshrined in the European Convention on Human Rights, so it is likely most other European countries have similar laws, although they may vary in scope and application.

It might also be against the 1st rule of the forum, which states that you must not:

quote:

1. Defame, abuse, harass, stalk, threaten or otherwise violate the legal rights (such as rights of privacy and publicity) of others


I don't know how this works since I don't know where Angel and this other person are located. But I presume that if they're somewhere where the secrecy of correspondence is a legal right and it applies to private messages online, then this would be a violation of the rules of the forum.

I'm no legal expert, but I'd just say that, given the effort Simon puts in to keep this place up and running, I think it would be best to refrain from actions that could potentially raise hell for him. Or at the very least do one's due diligence to be absolutely certain this has no legal implications for the forum we're posting on.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2019 7:53:45
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3297
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Racism is alive in the USA-even ... (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

In south Texas the term is “pato mojado,” literally “wet leg.”


Richard, what form of Spanish is spoken in south Texas? "Pato mojado" literally means "wet duck" (pato=duck, mojado=wet). Wet leg would be rendered as "pierna mojado." Could it be that the folks in south Texas are confusing ducks with legs?

There is another possibility. In Spanish "foot" is normally rendered as "pie." Nevertheless, a much less common term for "foot" is "pata" (not "pato"), which is the term from which Magellan derived his name for the natives of southern Argentina, calling them "Patagones" or "big feet." (They were thought to be giants.) Could it be that the south Texans have preserved this little-used term, referring to those crossing the Rio Grande as "pata mojada" or "wet foot"?

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2019 15:25:18
 
flyeogh

Posts: 729
Joined: Oct. 13 2004
 

RE: Racism is alive in the USA-even ... (in reply to BarkellWH

Bill for sure here in Spain it would be wet duck. 'Pata' is a dogs paw but some translation engines do translate 'Pata' into leg. Thus 'pata mojada' could be 'wet leg' according to these engines.

Not suggesting Richard of this, but we are sadly arriving at an age when determining correct language relies more on Google translate (there are other translation engines available) than the Universities charged with the specification of the said language

But I agree with Richard that wet leg is not necessarily directly racist. It might be at the same level as in the recent Elon Musk case where he got away with claiming local usage from his boyhood location. But if it is said with the aim of offending then it reflects badly on the speaker.

Anyway Happy New Year no matter what state your legs are in

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2019 16:18:06
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3202
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Racism is alive in the USA-even ... (in reply to BarkellWH

At least two forms of Spanish are spoken in south Texas. One is called “Tex-Mex.” It deviates sufficiently from standard castellano that I would call it a dialect. The phrase “pato mojado” refers to the lower leg and foot. It is often abbreviated simply to “mojado,” definitely ending in “o.”

The other version of Spanish is simply proper castellano, with a differing accent, and slight variation in customary vocabulary. For example, in Spain the water faucet is usually el grifo while in Mexico (and south Texas) it is more often la llave. In Mexico el limón is green and la lima is yellow, while in Spain the names of the fruits are reversed.

The accent in educated Mexican Spanish differs from pure castellano by having softer consonants and a different rhythm. The sing-song pitch pattern of the Mexico City hipster, parodied by the great cinema comedian Cantinflas, is absent. To me, educated Mexican Spanish differs less from pure castellano than andalú does. I have trouble understanding Tex-Mex.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2019 16:35:45
 
chester

Posts: 842
Joined: Oct. 29 2010
 

RE: Racism is alive in the USA-even ... (in reply to Piwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin

quote:

So it is ok to post private emails


FWIW, in France what Angel did here would be quite simply illegal I think. Except in a very narrow set of circumstances, divulging a private correspondence without the consent of the other party is against the law in France. I don't know how it is in other countries. I do know that the secrecy of correspondence is enshrined in the European Convention on Human Rights, so it is likely most other European countries have similar laws, although they may vary in scope and application.

It might also be against the 1st rule of the forum, which states that you must not:

quote:

1. Defame, abuse, harass, stalk, threaten or otherwise violate the legal rights (such as rights of privacy and publicity) of others


I don't know how this works since I don't know where Angel and this other person are located. But I presume that if they're somewhere where the secrecy of correspondence is a legal right and it applies to private messages online, then this would be a violation of the rules of the forum.

I'm no legal expert, but I'd just say that, given the effort Simon puts in to keep this place up and running, I think it would be best to refrain from actions that could potentially raise hell for him. Or at the very least do one's due diligence to be absolutely certain this has no legal implications for the forum we're posting on.


I'm not so sure about all that.
Here's a pretty recent example -- https://www.theguardian.com/education/2018/may/01/exeter-university-expels-students-over-racism-row

I couldn't find anything specific about the legal privacy expectation in ebay messages but all messages sent through their system are visible to them:

quote:

eBay's automated systems scan and analyze the contents of every message sent through its messages platform, including messages between users, to detect and prevent fraudulent activity or violations of eBay's User Agreement, including the incorporated terms, notices, rules, and policies. This scanning and analysis may occur before, during, or after the message is sent, or while in storage, and may result in your message being delayed or withheld. eBay may store message contents, including to conduct this scanning and analysis.

https://www.ebay.com/help/policies/member-behaviour-policies/user-agreement?id=4259


As much as it is fun to play armchair lawyer/judge I think your talents are wasted on this particular case. If we take OP at their word the message was unsolicited and contained nothing but disparaging remarks toward both the product they were selling AND a pretty large swath of the population. Even if it was wrong to post the message, its contents are inexcusable.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2019 19:01:23
 
Piwin

Posts: 3376
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Racism is alive in the USA-even ... (in reply to chester

quote:

I'm not so sure about all that.


Neither am I. That's the point. I'm just saying we would probably save Simon a few wrinkles here and there if we played it safe and avoided doing things that could be considered even remotely questionable.

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"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2019 19:39:37
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13289
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Racism is alive in the USA-even ... (in reply to chester

quote:

I'm getting that OP is someone who doesn't like it when someone disparages other people based on their nationality. Seems like a decent thing no?


Actually, the email statement, like racism itself, is based on ignorance. “Wet back” being an illegal immigrant slur, however a person living and working in Paracho building guitars can’t possibly be a “wet back” without violating some fundamental physics. The target of the slur is the “builder” however it’s goal is to devalue the target product. Using terms such as “made in a factory in Valencia” or “made in Japan” or “made in China”, function to achieve the same goal and discrimination against builders of guitars simply because of who they are and where they live and work. Calling people “racist” for pointing out a guitar is made by an individual or group of Asians or East coast Spaniards is not particularly noble. So we come back to the “slur” itself and who is using it.

Again, what I consider the DECENT thing to do would be to open a dialogue and attempt to reduce the ignorance involved in it’s usage and why it’s wrong on multiple levels. But “calling it out” in this dramatic public “news headline” fashion is doing no such thing, rather the opposite of trying to fix the problem. I can’t in good conscience consider that “decent”. It’s not “indecent” either, rather all it is doing is waving a personal banner that says “I am proud to be intolerant of these people here, that are intolerant of those people there”.

quote:

classic whataboutism.


Not really...you can easily substitute the term “USA” for any place on earth in regard to racism was my point. Indeed you pointed out “netherlands” yourself.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2019 20:59:51
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3297
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Racism is alive in the USA-even ... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

classic whataboutism.


Not really...you can easily substitute the term “USA” for any place on earth in regard to racism was my point. Indeed you pointed out “netherlands” yourself.


I didn't get the "classic whataboutism" comment either. It was in response to your comment to the poster who stated: "The USA's motto from my standpoint: "Shiny on the outside, empty on the inside". Like a bubble..."

My take on your comment which reads in part: "... the entire rest being completely tolerant such as your own country for example" was to point out the hypocrisy of someone condemning the US as being "empty on the inside" who hails from a country that had a sectarian civil war from 1975 to 1990 and has demonstrated a lack of religious and ethnic tolerance, and which for years has been under the heavy influence of Hezbollah, a terrorist organization supported by Iran.

In my opinion, pointing out such hypocrisy is not "classic whataboutism"; rather, it is a perfectly legitimate observation.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2019 21:37:24
 
mrstwinkle

 

Posts: 487
Joined: May 14 2017
 

RE: Racism is alive in the USA-even ... (in reply to AngelsFlight13

Going thermonuclear on this feels odd due to the private email aspects. If the seller is Dutch, their understanding that the term is racist is at least in doubt. I'd lean towards a gentle private communication personally.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 30 2019 11:09:02
 
Escribano

Posts: 6311
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Racism is alive in the USA-even ... (in reply to mrstwinkle

I think you have all had your say. I am deleting the original message and locking the thread.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 30 2019 12:50:38
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