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mt1007

Posts: 78
Joined: Jan. 19 2011
 

circle of fifths and tritones 

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 24 2019 0:08:13
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 355
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: circle of fifths and tritones (in reply to mt1007

Circle of 5ths

Your suggestion was to play the following notes of any scale 1 3 5 b7 6 across the fretboard. That's to say it's all about memorizing and playing these 5 note patterns all over the fretboard.
I wonder what is the main reason for this. More sophisticated way of navigating the fretboard? Why you go anti-clockwise C F Bb...? Is there any reason behind it?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 24 2019 12:08:33
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11588
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: circle of fifths and tritones (in reply to devilhand

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

Circle of 5ths

Your suggestion was to play the following notes of any scale 1 3 5 b7 6 across the fretboard. That's to say it's all about memorizing and playing these 5 note patterns all over the fretboard.
I wonder what is the main reason for this. More sophisticated way of navigating the fretboard? Why you go anti-clockwise C F Bb...? Is there any reason behind it?


As he states the “6” is the third of the next chord. So he is playing a V7 arpegio which resolves to the 3rd of the I chord. However each new I chord becomes the new V7, so he is traveling counterclockwise around the circle of 5ths, changing keys each time. You can envision his exercise as actually TURNING the wheel like a dial clockwise, such that each new chord ends up in the upper right hand corner at 1 o’clock position.

It’s a very good sequence that has a nice symmetrical left hand feel.... so long as you understand what you are doing is not “diatonic” or in a key, you are simply changing keys by fourth intervals.

As for the other portion lots of good stuff there. Obviously certain choices for the por medio tonic chord “work” fine, but might not be the most tasteful choice for say the critical aficionados.... hence the “it sounds too jazzy” generalizations.

Just want to point out that a big part of the confusion earlier regarding tritone subbing, was for example your dm9-Db alt (you did a few, #9,#11 etc) resolution to C major, showing how it works, subbing for basic G7, with very “jazzy” results...the confusion was that if you have the opposite to start with, Db7-C such as in flamenco, that subbing the Db with a G7 basic, doesn’t really have good results. The idea to spice it up is the G7 would have to be further altered in a way that you end up with the correct flavor for the genre.

Another example is when you pointed out lydian dominant on your Bb7 in por medio. Yes that’s the flamenco sound... it’s already the tritone sub at work... subbed for E7. No one was claiming it’s a good idea to sub E Lydian dominant in place of the Bb7, and that was where a lot of argument and misspellings were going on.

Anyway, thanks for the video, what’s the guitar? That’s the old Esteso head stock.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 24 2019 16:58:44
 
mt1007

Posts: 78
Joined: Jan. 19 2011
 

RE: circle of fifths and tritones (in reply to mt1007

Devilhand... Ricardo summed it up best, I got nothing to add to his explanation.

Ricardo... man you're putting me on the spot hahahaha. The reason I showed how tritone subbing for me works, is so peeps can figure out for themselves what sounds good or not, what chord spellings work or not, etc... hahahaha

As for the guitar, it's a Lester Devoe though I do have a 1931 Esteso.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 24 2019 18:26:41
 
mt1007

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RE: circle of fifths and tritones (in reply to mt1007

ok ok... further down the rabbit hole

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 24 2019 19:16:13
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11588
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: circle of fifths and tritones (in reply to mt1007

quote:

ORIGINAL: mt1007

ok ok... further down the rabbit hole




Baby is there like “NO DAD, C lydian dom and F# super loc are the same scale and function....oh but actually F lydian dominant sounded pretty cool in granaina key....Give me a little guitar now, NOW I SAY!!!!”

Seriously though, Romerito was yelling at us that F# lydian dom can’t ever sub for C7 in B flamenco context... of course it sounds like baby diapers! You don’t tritone sub in reverse, or tritone sub the tritone sub in other words, the concept is not interchangeable.

Jucal in D# phrygian by Gerardo uses the A lydian dominant in one falseta, yep it’s cool too.

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www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 25 2019 13:14:05
 
JasonM

Posts: 1168
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: circle of fifths and tritones (in reply to mt1007

I could swear I remember Rick Beato doing this exercise too. Pretty cool you taught him Lol. It’s a cool excerise thanks for sharing, I’m going to to do it.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 25 2019 15:30:52
 
mt1007

Posts: 78
Joined: Jan. 19 2011
 

RE: circle of fifths and tritones (in reply to mt1007

Ricardo man.... My baby boy is on top of me, when I play wrong notes, or boring estudios, etc... He starts to cry. Just goes to show how receptive the human ear is. Kid loves the guitar...

Man I remember hearing Jucal the first time... bad ass... I saw Gerardo live in Sevilla. He killed it!

Jason man cut me some slack hahahaha. Of course I was influenced by Rick Beato to make this estudio but I adapted it to my flamenco practice and changed some things around. I also stole some stuff from Antonio Rey for this estudio. In reality this estudio doesn't belong to anyone, it belongs to music y punto. Circle of fifths man, public domain loco....
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 25 2019 17:40:34
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 355
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: circle of fifths and tritones (in reply to JasonM

quote:

ORIGINAL: JasonM

I could swear I remember Rick Beato doing this exercise too. Pretty cool you taught him Lol. It’s a cool excerise thanks for sharing, I’m going to to do it.


Which exercise do you mean? Could you give me the link to Mr Beato's video?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 26 2019 13:39:08
 
devilhand

 

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RE: circle of fifths and tritones (in reply to mt1007

For those who are interested. Here is the exercise for the circle of 5ths study recomended by mt1007. You have to add 6 to this pattern and connect the keys on your own though. 6 is the 3rd of the next pattern.

Except that you play this pattern starting from C F Bb ... to G (anti-clockwise in the circle of 5ths), I couldn't see the connection between the pattern 1 3 5 b7 6 and the circle of 5ths. In the context of circle of 5ths, what is the advantage of memorizing and playing these patterns?



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 8 2019 16:32:20
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11588
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: circle of fifths and tritones (in reply to devilhand

quote:

Except that you play this pattern starting from C F Bb ... to G (anti-clockwise in the circle of 5ths), I couldn't see the connection between the pattern 1 3 5 b7 6 and the circle of 5ths. In the context of circle of 5ths, what is the advantage of memorizing and playing these patterns?


The idea was to visualize the circle of 5ths on the neck, or rather, have a simple exercise or “device” that gives you V7-I when you need it for any key (you don’t have to start at C). It is more typical to modulate to nearby keys on the circle and V-I is the easiest way to modulate. All you did by posting that photo is show a specific pattern of V7 arpegios in every key, it’s missing the point of the exercise. Better if you had shown tab of the specific exercise IMO.

By the way I was thinking of a better exercise for this that could be diatonic or at least establish the I before turning it into V7.

3-1 3, 5 7 5 3, 1 3 5 b7
6/3-1 3, 5 7 5 3, 1 3 5 b7 etc

That 3 (or 6) is an eighth note and the rest are 16ths so it’s in 3/4 meter. I feel the maj7 arpegio grounds the ear to the new key before altering it on the third beat with the V7 device.

You can also do this sequence as a diatonic exercise, which would help learn the chord scale of one key... and also secondary dominants can be applied if you want on each third beat. For example start on b3 in A minor and switch t0 A7 beat 3 land on F of D minor etc

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 8 2019 17:01:34
 
mt1007

Posts: 78
Joined: Jan. 19 2011
 

RE: circle of fifths and tritones (in reply to mt1007

DevilHand...

Ricardos advice is great, take this study and make it work for you.

I didn't post a chart like yours because that's a lot of remembering.

When I'm playing on stage or with friends, improvising etc... I can't think of these charts, whatever I play has to happen automatically.

Thats what my study does, it creates muscle memory that you can call upon when playing without having to think about a graphic or chart.

I can go more in depth on this subject as I'm sure Ricardo can too. I think at that point, it's time for a private lesson.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 8 2019 19:34:44
 
devilhand

 

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RE: circle of fifths and tritones (in reply to mt1007

quote:

I didn't post a chart like yours because that's a lot of remembering.

You don't have to remember all the patterns on a chart. Subtle details are enough. A closer look at the picture above will tell many useful things we can be aware of. One simple example would be:
For any root note 1 the dominant note 5 is found on the next lower string on the same fret except for the 2nd and 3rd string. So we can identify any power chord easily.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 7 2020 15:01:18
 
mt1007

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RE: circle of fifths and tritones (in reply to mt1007

Devilhand,

Of course you don't have to remember all the patterns on a chart... the point i'm trying to make with my study, is to learn the shapes of an arpeggiated fifth. By learning them across all strings, you don't have to remember a chart at all. It just becomes automatic muscle memory recall.

Also regarding your chart and what you state, what happens when you invert your root note and dominant? Now you're talking about a 4th, which your chart does not explain nor your statement.

Knowing what intervals surround a note that your playing is great to learn but that's not what this thread is about. Your chart can help with that, so can my study. I guess it depends how you want to skin that cat...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 7 2020 16:39:25
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 355
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: circle of fifths and tritones (in reply to mt1007

A few years back when I wanted to play lead guitar, I tried to look at the fretboard this way. I dunno what I was thinking when I generated this.
Could you guys share your opinion on this? Any advantages of working with it? For example when I want to analyze harmonic moves and playing a solo or melody? Or is it useless?
From left above to down right, we can divide the fretboard into 5 sections. Looks like the range of the guitar is 4 octaves on a 22-fret guitar.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 17 2020 18:56:28
 
mt1007

Posts: 78
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RE: circle of fifths and tritones (in reply to mt1007

Devilhand, were you trying to use this like the "caged" system?

I don't use the caged system. I learn scales, fretboard, etc from the same note in 3 different positions, starting with the pinky, middle finger and index finger. This helps me cover the whole fretboard for any scale, chord arpeggio etc....
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 17 2020 19:42:27
 
Piwin

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Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: circle of fifths and tritones (in reply to mt1007

I do something somewhat similar. I take a scale, define a starting point and an end point at random, and then explore every possible way to get from one to the other. Of course, some of the paths make no sense at all in terms of playability, but it's kind of fun to do anyway. ^^

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 17 2020 19:51:22
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11588
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: circle of fifths and tritones (in reply to devilhand

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

A few years back when I wanted to play lead guitar, I tried to look at the fretboard this way. I dunno what I was thinking when I generated this.
Could you guys share your opinion on this? Any advantages of working with it? For example when I want to analyze harmonic moves and playing a solo or melody? Or is it useless?
From left above to down right, we can divide the fretboard into 5 sections. Looks like the range of the guitar is 4 octaves on a 22-fret guitar.




A good reference for chromatic note position, also if you get into singing you have a clear map of the vocal octaves (male passagio involves some of your grey boxed notes) since they also count from C to B.

However, I question how much this map helps you navigate keys of G minor, C minor, Bb minor, or Ab minor.

The best method I have found is learning overlapping 7 diatonic patterns of major scales, 3 notes per string. Learn them in order of the circle of 5ths in both direction.

Here is C major to start with at 24:15
https://youtu.be/e_EySFJcBA0

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 17 2020 22:12:06
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 355
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: circle of fifths and tritones (in reply to mt1007

quote:

Devilhand, were you trying to use this like the "caged" system?

I didn't have something sophisticated on my mind. It was not my purpose to start from C.
I decorated the fretboard with one additional information. 5 Sections I mentioned are actually 5 different octave ranges. So each section represents one octave range. A note in grey circles (for example open low E) and the same note in red (high E at the 12th fret) are 3 octaves apart because there are 2 different sections between them - green and rectangular boxes.

One thing on my mind now is if we want to play a melodic sequence this additional information showes where the same melodic sequence can be found in the next higher octave range . I like the tension created by such melodic sequences. Something similar can be seen in this video I just found.

https://youtu.be/9InqERlAwTY

quote:

The best method I have found is learning overlapping 7 diatonic patterns of major scales, 3 notes per string. Learn them in order of the circle of 5ths in both direction.

Here is C major to start with at 24:15
https://youtu.be/e_EySFJcBA0


Thnks for the link. Very useful stuff. Good old Paul Gilbert.
Btw every aficionado should know this video. His right hand technique looks awesome. lol



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 18 2020 12:09:46
 
JasonM

Posts: 1168
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: circle of fifths and tritones (in reply to devilhand

Watching that vid again I’d like to try out some of Paul Gilbert’s string switching exercises por Picado.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 19 2020 2:13:32
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 355
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: circle of fifths and tritones (in reply to JasonM

JasonM
Your avatar always cracks me up. You look like one of very few guys who can accompany himself while singing flamenco cante.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 7 2020 13:01:38
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