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Cervantes

 

Posts: 429
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA

Hands injured 

Hi,

A few weeks ago I fell and sprained my left wrist. (doing something stupid)
It has been in a brace most of the time.
Its feeling better but still not good enough to play stretches.
In the mean time naturally I started working on just my right hand playing double arpeggios over and over a million times and trying imitate Paco's picado.
They both improved (still can't play arpeggio right 100% of the time).
Now my right hand hurts as much as my left. I really can't play at all right now and realize I have to slow down. Just wondering what the recovery time for this might be.
Thanks for any tips / advice.

_____________________________

Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco
very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 7 2019 4:30:58
 
flyeogh

Posts: 449
Joined: Oct. 13 2004
 

RE: Hands injured (in reply to Cervantes

That's really tough man. I know how you feel to some degree as I'm playing through tennis elbow at the moment. I know I should stop playing but I can't.

On sprain wrist the good advice is do not start until:

You feel no pain in your wrist when it's at rest
You can work out and grip and move objects without pain
Your injured wrist, as well as the hand and arm on that side, feel as strong as the uninjured wrist, hand, and arm.

You seem to have got around the last one by bringing the good one down to the bad one's level

Seriously, as tough as it is, take a break. Do as I say but not as I do.

Although as soon as pain starts I stop and do stretching exercises that my prof gave me. Within 2 or 3 mins I can start again. And slowly it is getting better. But as I say that is just tennis elbow and not a full blooded strain.

How long to recover? Sadly That seems to be how long is a piece of string.

Wishing you a speedy recovery.

_____________________________

nigel (el raton de Watford - now Puerto de Santa Maria, Cadiz)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 7 2019 8:44:21
 
Filip

 

Posts: 166
Joined: Apr. 23 2006
From: Madrid

RE: Hands injured (in reply to Cervantes

Recently I had similar issue with the right hand when playing Guardian Angel intro arpeggio (like for ten days every day learning and practicing it). I wrote about it here http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=317463&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1
I could feel that my right hand was hurting and it became weak, but I took some days off playing and it came back to normal after that. Now it's fine, but I don't play the same arpeggio that much anymore.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 7 2019 13:22:21
 
kitarist

Posts: 535
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Hands injured (in reply to Cervantes

Maybe you give more details: For example, what part of the hand (or wrist?) hurts, exactly? What fingers and what finger actions cause (caused) pain? Ramzi may be able to shed some light.

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 7 2019 17:20:45
 
tele

Posts: 1401
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: Hands injured (in reply to Cervantes

For the right hand these kind of "overplaying" problems in my experience subside after a week of rest.
The left hand, it depends how serious it is, I would give it at least three weeks of rest.

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 7 2019 17:44:07
 
El Burdo

 

Posts: 442
Joined: Sep. 8 2011
 

RE: Hands injured (in reply to Cervantes

In general, I think psychologically you should be prepared to wait for a good deal of time, dependent on your age, the older, the longer. I still try and run 'long' distances and last year developed plantar fasciopathy in my right foot.
I tried to run through it, got better slightly over 4 months but eventually did some real damage during a subsequent race. After a week or so, limping about, I continued to run through it and... developed tendonopathy in the same leg. I tried to run through that too with no improvement and plenty of pain.
After almost a year of ignoring the advice, I finally took three months off, doing exercises, stretches, ice, massage etc etc and now I can run with no problems. Had I done this 15 months ago I would have been fixed in three months and not develop subsequent problems.
Stopping indulging a passion is very difficult but where the advice is just to stop, I've decided it's worth taking, through gritted teeth.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 7 2019 18:35:42
 
Cervantes

 

Posts: 429
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA

RE: Hands injured (in reply to El Burdo

quote:

ORIGINAL: El Burdo

In general, I think psychologically you should be prepared to wait for a good deal of time, dependent on your age, the older, the longer. I still try and run 'long' distances and last year developed plantar fasciopathy in my right foot.
I tried to run through it, got better slightly over 4 months but eventually did some real damage during a subsequent race. After a week or so, limping about, I continued to run through it and... developed tendonopathy in the same leg. I tried to run through that too with no improvement and plenty of pain.
After almost a year of ignoring the advice, I finally took three months off, doing exercises, stretches, ice, massage etc etc and now I can run with no problems. Had I done this 15 months ago I would have been fixed in three months and not develop subsequent problems.
Stopping indulging a passion is very difficult but where the advice is just to stop, I've decided it's worth taking, through gritted teeth.


You just described me exactly. I am 61 and a life long cyclist. A year and half ago I started having pain in my right hip. I kept riding anyway and saw a lot of doctors. Now I have not ridden since last October and it is driving me crazy. Now I am just trying to live without cycling. Flamenco was a good outlet for me but now I need to stop that too. At least I know my hands will likely get better with a few weeks rest. Thanks for sharing.

_____________________________

Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco
very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 8 2019 3:08:19
 
El Burdo

 

Posts: 442
Joined: Sep. 8 2011
 

RE: Hands injured (in reply to Cervantes

I guess we are on the graceful decline from about 40 anyway but maybe overuse and doing something incorrectly may be damaging too. I developed tendonopathy because of the plantar 'pain avoidance' gait I'd created. I also finally bought some shoe inserts which I am reluctantly saying may well be helping (I am a fan of minimal running and have always preferred to train my feet).
I'm sure if you play something 'a million times' something's gotta give! Try ice, massage as well as rest.
The very best of luck to you!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 8 2019 8:45:46
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3736
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Hands injured (in reply to Cervantes

The very most of exercises will not strain in an even way / will mean one sided demand.

Doing stretches a likes will do only so much / mean symptomatic approach. Same with massages, ointments, supports, surgery etc.

Causal approach to muscular imbalance and its effects on skeleton, cartilage, tendon, neural issue is a plain and most effective answer in practice. Approach I have seen regularly curing within incredibly short time. Relatively even with long time indications.

However, straight forward solutions are generally not very popular with consumer mentality that prefers to delegate problem solving. ("Mothers little helpers".)

Besides: True that the body will change with age (while cerebral speed already declining upwards from 18), however when taken the little of time to keep muscles in balance, aging differs in so many ways (including much feared arthritis).

As you know there can easily be differences in physical age in dimensions of decades. Like say 70 year old chaps fitter than many people with 35.

Anyway, don´t listen to charlatan me and keep limping or pausing along! ;O/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 8 2019 16:03:41
 
rombsix

Posts: 6869
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Hands injured (in reply to Cervantes

quote:

You just described me exactly. I am 61 and a life long cyclist. A year and half ago I started having pain in my right hip. I kept riding anyway and saw a lot of doctors. Now I have not ridden since last October and it is driving me crazy. Now I am just trying to live without cycling. Flamenco was a good outlet for me but now I need to stop that too. At least I know my hands will likely get better with a few weeks rest. Thanks for sharing.


Hey man - I had a similar problem. In fact, I have a lot of mechanical issues. My body is not the sturdiest and I don't take care of it well. You'll be surprised if you rest that a couple of things may happen: 1- When you get back to playing, you will feel like Paco de Lucia (because you've missed it so much). 2- Your injuries will heal and you will be able to really enjoy playing again because you're using a sound body to play, and you may have all along not realized that there was something off which was limiting your ability to improve or enjoy (or both). 3- You'll find pleasure in other things in life a simple as just sitting down and looking out the window, going for a walk outside, reading some books / material you've wanted to learn more about but have not been able to because you were too occupied with other stuff, etc.

I would also consider taking some supplements - I use magnesium, zinc, calcium, vitamin D, vitamin B, fish oil. When I sleep well and I take these regularly, it really helps me.

Hang in there my friend.

_____________________________

Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 8 2019 18:41:38
 
El Burdo

 

Posts: 442
Joined: Sep. 8 2011
 

RE: Hands injured (in reply to Ruphus

quote:

Causal approach to muscular imbalance and its effects on skeleton, cartilage, tendon, neural issue is a plain and most effective answer in practice


That might be true in establishing what caused the problem but it isn't a fix for it.

Runner's knee, for example is caused by the kneecap not being correctly pulled into position across the joint - so it grates against the bone. In the long term adequately exercising the muscles responsible for pulling the kneecap into position (the glutes) will mean the injury is unlikely to repeat. But, they won't improve the pain in the knee because they did not cause the pain. Their lack of proper use caused the pain. Treating the cause is not the same as treating the effect.
Do the stuff that improves things in the short term, the ice, massage etc then do the strategic stuff, training the glutes etc over the long term.

That is not delegating problem solving, it's problem solving.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 8 2019 20:27:18
 
kitarist

Posts: 535
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Hands injured (in reply to rombsix

quote:

ORIGINAL: rombsix
You'll find pleasure in other things in life a simple as just sitting down and looking out the window, going for a walk outside,


Pfffftt...



_____________________________

Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 8 2019 20:56:58
 
rombsix

Posts: 6869
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Hands injured (in reply to kitarist

quote:

Pfffftt...




_____________________________

Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 9 2019 1:22:44
 
Dudnote

Posts: 1761
Joined: Nov. 13 2007
 

RE: Hands injured (in reply to kitarist

quote:

ORIGINAL: rombsix
You'll find pleasure in other things in life a simple as just sitting down and looking out the window, going for a walk outside,


Or dancing tango with beautiful women

In my early 20s I really screwed myself up pretty bad with this sort of injury by trying to play (classical) through the pain barrier. At its worst, I couldn't hold a cup of tea or pull down a door handle or zip/unzip my flies. I quit playing guitar - until about 3 years later when a friend started talking about a local flamenco teacher. When I quit guitar, I found Tai Chi really useful for regaining lost basic function. If your condition accepts it, you might also benefit from yoga - with fingers spread out when in contact with the floor. I have also found swimming useful for reducing forearm tension (gained from rock climbing - my other passion) - but you will need to go carefully if the tendons are very inflamed. Good luck!

_____________________________

Ay compañerita de mi alma
tú ahora no me conoces.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 9 2019 6:38:03
 
rombsix

Posts: 6869
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Hands injured (in reply to Dudnote

quote:

Or dancing tango with beautiful women




_____________________________

Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 9 2019 7:46:48
 
flyeogh

Posts: 449
Joined: Oct. 13 2004
 

RE: Hands injured (in reply to Dudnote

quote:

Or dancing tango with beautiful women


My wife has put her foot down on this one, and she's told me where she'll put her foot if I try it

Great and very useful thread (tx to all) but not sure if others find this, but the more I read this thread the more I get pain sensations from elbow to fingers. Psycosomatic pain possibly???

Seriously I think I get problems when I practise barre chords down the stalk, and lots of difficult stretchy chord progressions.

I remember in my very early guitar days having a vice grip with my left hand. It took a few lessons and a patient teacher to get me to kiss the strings with light touch - and still get a nice sound. And with these tricky fingerings I'm doing now I think something similar, if not as extreme, is happening. So I think I'll spend a week using the left hand as if it is a fine wine glass.

I'm only practising 2 to 3 hours a day. Maybe I'll cut that by an hour. But the thought of not picking up a guitar each day sounds just too horrific - even though all the advice to give it a rest makes a lot of sense.

_____________________________

nigel (el raton de Watford - now Puerto de Santa Maria, Cadiz)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 9 2019 9:41:16
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11055
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Hands injured (in reply to rombsix

quote:

vitamin D


This is the key I have found to many people’s hand problems, including my own. At least I noticed a difference in myself and some students.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 9 2019 11:21:02
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3736
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Hands injured (in reply to El Burdo

quote:

ORIGINAL: El Burdo

quote:

Causal approach to muscular imbalance and its effects on skeleton, cartilage, tendon, neural issue is a plain and most effective answer in practice


That might be true in establishing what caused the problem but it isn't a fix for it.

Runner's knee, for example is caused by the kneecap not being correctly pulled into position across the joint - so it grates against the bone. In the long term adequately exercising the muscles responsible for pulling the kneecap into position (the glutes) will mean the injury is unlikely to repeat. But, they won't improve the pain in the knee because they did not cause the pain. Their lack of proper use caused the pain. Treating the cause is not the same as treating the effect.
Do the stuff that improves things in the short term, the ice, massage etc then do the strategic stuff, training the glutes etc over the long term.

That is not delegating problem solving, it's problem solving.



Knees and atlas are evolutionary human imperfections / predetermined breaking points so to say.
However, these delicacies don´t come in an isolated way, but in conjunction with imbalance and induced false posture / coordination. Often main bad state not even close to the acute problem. (Like for instance upper, lower back or feet effecting knees.)

Issues with ligaments are literally connected to muscles.

Nothing against comforting plasters, but they will not remove anything causally.

What works is to not continue wrong practice (as you sound as if I was recommending such), but to introduce according exercises and strengthening / balance.

These will not dynamically strain on the accrued injuries and allow for controlled application below pain threshold, while bearing the fastest muscular rebuild possible.

However, there will be no reach by ignoring and evading from start.

The physicians whose appreciation has been gained on the way weren´t introduced to the right approach through lengthy explanation either, but through acute relieving and simply healing their patients in no time. Patients sometimes in treatment for many years even. Others with date for surgery too, who then happily cancelled.

Just get used to the idea that some things do not need to be too awkward and that not every pointer against common procedures is a frivolous.

My old man taught me to listen to everyone regardless of reputation or social ranking, and check out then.
To my experience a good advice.

- In modern realm (unlike undeveloped places where docs still behave incredibly lofty and irresponsible) wise physicians have stepped down from pedestal voluntarily, being vary of own competence / obtaining second opinion from colleagues, seeking holistic insight, while specialist chapters looking for synergy, and pharmacologists understanding that there is wide resource among native healers and botany that they could have never come up with by themselves, etc. (Now analytically and experimentally supported by algorithms.)

It is rather patients who keep looking for physicians as countryman or whatever else that makes them hope for authority / trustworthiness. So, no wonder how whom we knew as best dentists in towns by trade, wouldn´t necessarily be most reputated among local folks in the same time, -while a highly accepted guy made it to being a provinces head of chamber in spite of being a true butcher.

Anyway, be prepared for gradually establishing insights (what I am recommending here is already seeping in since years, yet for most made use of in late physiotherapy, only neither fully nor widespread yet) in the subjects / don´t be too stiff with what may seem to be current up to date approach and thinking.

Just remember: The largely immobilizing and suspending times of plastering, insoles etc. are from not too long ago. With sustaining / improving concepts like countering or strengthening measures like foot gymnastics or a ball in the slipper existing, but scraping a bare living then.

... And while rambling: Just look at the orthopedically still vastly miserable shaping of footwear, determined in historical and silly perception of aesthetics.

As I´ve said before: Take your common shoe, sneakers or what have you and hold its sole against your foot. (At best in the evening.) See how much slimmer it is than your foot?

Having not even overcome such stupidity of skeleton crippling, hallus valgus, knees and spine issues causing fashion ... how can you expect our medicine to have broadly discovered the knees bees already.

Not to downplay research. It seems progressing greatly for most these days. But the gap between discoveries and common practice tends to remain too broad and lasting.

Partially for reasons of economy, and too often still for ordinary ones of stubbornness (which I am aiming at here).
-

One of the things I teach as general base before martial art is correct walking.
Most urban people would not even imagine how that works.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 9 2019 12:18:29
 
edguerin

Posts: 1501
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Hands injured (in reply to flyeogh

quote:

all the advice to give it a rest makes a lot of sense.

And rest means rest. So not just cutting it by an hour.

_____________________________

Ed

El aficionado solitario
Alemania
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 9 2019 17:59:02
 
El Burdo

 

Posts: 442
Joined: Sep. 8 2011
 

RE: Hands injured (in reply to Ruphus

quote:

Take your common shoe, sneakers or what have you and hold its sole against your foot. (At best in the evening.) See how much slimmer it is than your foot?

Having not even overcome such stupidity of skeleton crippling, hallus valgus, knees and spine issues causing fashion ... how can you expect our medicine to have broadly discovered the knees bees already.


When I say 'rest' I mean rest from the activity which resulted in the problem. Lack of activity won't help, but activity which addresses the injury (not the cause) is a good idea. That would be ice, massage, pressure etc where appropriate.

I am not talking about medical conjurers, or high-falutin' quacks - in the UK we are almost always referred to Physiotherapists who will prescribe the appropriate stretches etc. I don't think these are people who are seeking the 'knees bees'. But they will know what muscles are used with the knees.

If you saw a Chinese therapist, they may deal with the bottom of the foot directly, but that doesn't have traction in British health so far. The only thing used from Chinese medicine is acupuncture, simply as pain relief. But then, so is hypnotism.
I buy Vivobarefoot shoes for ordinary day walking in the street which are minimal barefoot shoes essentially. They are sold on the basis that they address the whole foot sole - and hence the liver, kidneys , blood etc etc. Unfortunately, Neanderthal man was not designed to walk about on pavement slabs and I have found that some minimal support in the heel was needed. I also have inserted a antipronation insert as my arches were falling - I would be surprised if Chinese foot analysis would find a solution to falling arches.

I bought the barefoot shoes because I had run out of shoes that I could wear. And you're concern is addressed - they are REALLY wide! My foot is smaller than the shoes and although I have to walk slightly differently (probably 'correct' walking) I think they are a major help - no more calf pain, hip pain, knee pain - even though I wondered if they contributed to the plantar fasciitis (I don't think they started it, at least). I have hallux rigidus too, and it is quite manageable. (For running shoes I use a more substantial pair though nothing like the 12mm drop monsters from the past).

All in all, you use lots of circumlocutory language but if you are saying, 'address the cause' - and that the cause may not be quite so obvious when the effect is observed, then I agree. But science moves slow. At the moment no-one knows how to deal with Plantar Fasciopathy, though plenty of research has been done. It's REST that seems to work. Certainly not surgery, which unless there is no other option, is barely ever a good idea. It's the muscles, stupid (Clinton W).
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 9 2019 21:40:45
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3736
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Hands injured (in reply to El Burdo

Agreed on some of things, while certain points appear to remain worth further regard.

Having just looked them up, the Vivothingis look good in terms of width and lateral shape, however the makers should have known that the heel needs a slight lift, as such is commonly known since quite a while already.

The barefoot shoes (which I noticed before) with the separate toes always looked interesting to me, but never saw them in real life, while hoping that the lateral spreading of toes won´t provoke hallux valgus. (Who knows, maybe they even work as prophylaxis by introducing involuntary tightening of the ball / pulling against toe spreading [you may tell].)

A brand that I am familiar with and whichs sports thingies (not running shoes / got no experience with thelikes) I found to be satisfactory / feeling pretty natural is Bär.



The website for plantar fasciopathy quite seems to support my statement.

https://plantarfasciopathy.org/
quote:


conventional management often was, and still is, aimed at reducing or controlling the inflammatory process (rest, ice, anti-inflammatory medications, splinting, immobilization, etc.). Although acute (sudden, short term) cases of plantar fascia disorders may have a significant element of inflammation, those that last longer (chronic, meaning greater than 6-12 weeks), do not have much, if any, inflammation present.
Most cases of chronic plantar fasciitis are resistant to treatments that try to reduce inflammation. What is often seen with these conventional anti-inflammatory treatments is that during the treatment process the patient’s activity is usually limited and the patient may feel a little better. However, once they return to the activity, the symptoms return. This sets up a vicious cycle of taking time off from activity to decrease symptoms, followed by a return of symptoms when activity is resumed.



Regarding stretching in physiotherapy, this will work for repositioning deranged situation, albeit not be contributing in terms of eliminating any causal issue.

-Just as stretching won´t be doing much in general anyway.
It will however specifically very much do in conjunction with isometric contraction for initiating addition of muscle fibers lengthwise (while replacing tendon) on the way to prolongation for establishing mentioned balance.

As I said: Basically a not too complicated thing to realize.
... Like besides with a number of reasonably plain things in life, that mustn´t really be too twisted. ... While recognition notwithstandingly moving slow, as you mentioned already.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 11 2019 7:14:29
 
El Burdo

 

Posts: 442
Joined: Sep. 8 2011
 

RE: Hands injured (in reply to Ruphus

quote:

Bär
they look interesting, slightly more substantial than Vivobarefoot, which are very minimal.

The separate toe shoes (Vibram Five Finger shoes) were once considered to be exciting and different but, after a lot of injury there was a Class Action Lawsuit in the US (2014 I think) which cost Vibram $3.5M for false health claims. I see them occasionally, but they are at the mad end of minimal running. I don't think we move quite in the way that these manufacturers want us to move - running on the forefoot is quite possible for me, but I am better in the midfoot and try to avoid any heel strike. I have also learned to significantly reduce the heel impact when walking.

Re Plantar fasciopathy - ice was only effective when I used the foot a lot, and being a foot, I did use it a lot. So I used ice quite often. But the main exercises were done using a slant board and ski sticks (see The Cool Impossible by Eric Orton).

I agree about stretching not in itself being enough and some strength repetitions being necessary - I follow Doctor Jo's Youtube exercises for both.

I'm sure all this has resonance somewhere in flamenco injuries. Sorry Simon if it has shifted too far.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 11 2019 13:49:26
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